4 ms·

American Millennials are among the world's least skilled

36 points by paralelogram 12y ago

xigency 12y ago
Speaking of literacy, Gen Yers has to be the most clumsy abbreviation I have ever seen.
rquantz 12y ago
I'm imagining the scene where a bunch of American Millenials were asked to solve basic math problems and computer literacy tests. "Jeez this is pointless," one said. "Yeah, reminds me of high school," said another. And they twiddled their thumbs until it was over. While I'm sure these are relevant statistics, I don't see it having much bearing on real competitiveness going forward. There's no measure of creativity, adaptability, or tenacity. Show me Americans are lagging in those and I'll start to worry.
- consz 12y ago
  What proof is there that creativity, adaptability, tenacity are better skills to have than the ones tested in the article? Or that the skills you mentioned are not consequences of the ones mentioned in the article?
  - greenyoda 12y ago
    For that matter, the ability of these tests to predict success hasn't been very good over time. From another recent article on HN: "In truth, though, the United States has never done well on international tests, and they are not good predictors of our national success. Since 1964, when the first such exam was administered to 13-year-olds in 12 countries, America has lagged behind its peers, rarely rising above the middle of the pack and doing particularly poorly in science and math. And yet over these past five decades, that same laggard country has dominated the world of science, technology, research and innovation."[1] [1] http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/why-stem-wont-make-us-successful/2015/03/26/5f4604f2-d2a5-11e4-ab77-9646eea6a4c7_story.html?hpid=z3 http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/why-stem-wont-make-us... (via https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9285423 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9285423)
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
    - throwaway43 12y ago
      Because America imports all the best brains from all over the world using the H1B program ?
      - tfussell 12y ago
        But why don't other counties do this if they're so smart?
- atlantic 12y ago
  I looked through some of the questions. Simple things like being able to read a chart or to calculate an interest rate. How would this not have any bearing on productivity?
- joezydeco 12y ago
  Tenacity can also be defined as doing things you don't always want to do, like taking a skills test.
- weina67 12y ago
  hey rquantz, can you please contact me at weinanas@gmail.com. I have an urgent matter to talk to you about
dismal2 12y ago
Good way to explain away the lack of jobs and wage growth this generation faces. I think the solution is either more unpaid internships, more debt or both.
dllu 12y ago
Looks like they got an American Millenial to design their quiz: http://i.imgur.com/j4b73bz.png http://i.imgur.com/j4b73bz.png
- bshimmin 12y ago
  I got as far as an impressive message which said, "The content in the Education & Skills Online Exam only supports Firefox 10+. Please close the browser you are currently using and re-launch using Firefox."
twrkit 12y ago
Oh yeah? Well American Millennials are by far the world's most educated and knowledgeable about anthropology, sociology, race and gender studies, psychology, social media activism (aka, changing your Facebook default pic to #KONY2012), beer pong, how to find a good deal on Etsy, et al. When would we ever need to use that math stuff when uploading selfies, binging on Netflix, or ordering pour over coffee?
- sehr 12y ago
  Are you really including the humanities with beer pong, selfies and Netflix?
simonswords82 12y ago
I'm not sure how the stats here in the UK compare with the US but I'd be interested to know. Especially as we have a government backed apprenticeship scheme which takes largely unskilled young people of age 16 upwards and funds their training on the job. I've had countless apprentices work for my software company and it's such a win-win for employer and employee. My company gets dedicated, passionate, diligent and most importantly enthusiastic young people to train in the art of building websites. In return our apprentices get paid and they get to learn a skill in a workplace environment. We end up with employees who are ridiculously loyal, and they end up with a career. I'm sure we've saved a large number of kids from menial jobs at <insert large megacorp> while they work out how to get a career. Does the US have a similar scheme? If so it must surely be one way to help resolve this issue?
lnlyplnt 12y ago
The one big problem with this exam is that the candidates are not well normalized across countries. You don't really get an apples to apples comparison since countries like Japan have a tendency to cherry pick who takes the test.
johnkchow 12y ago
My parents immigrated to America in the 80's from China, and they simply thought that a college degree was the gateway to social mobility. They never thought that the skills learned in college would matter that much. Most parents in my community thought the same way. Most parents didn't speak English, so my generation was further isolated from the job market demands. Going to college, my friends and I had little idea of what we wanted to, not because we were indecisive but because we simply didn't know what jobs we could do. I saw many friends study history, music and foreign languages, and they struggled after graduating because they realized that their degrees aren't guarantees for good jobs. The struggles weren't due to lack of desires or efforts. In my opinion, it's the disconnect between the perceived value in education and the actual skills needed for the work place. Raising awareness, such as vocational classes in high school and required internships as a prerequisite for college graduation, would have been tremendous for my generation. At the very least, it would have helped us realize that there's this gap between what we're learning in school versus what's actually needed in the work force.
- redthrow 12y ago
  Take a look at Roger Shank's "Education Outrage" blog. "Community college wouldn’t be necessary if the high schools weren't broken." http://educationoutrage.blogspot.ca/2015/01/free-community-college-why-how-about-we.html http://educationoutrage.blogspot.ca/2015/01/free-community-c...
xexers 12y ago
Is there enough information in this question to answer it? https://i.imgur.com/qoSuV4Z.png https://i.imgur.com/qoSuV4Z.png Is the loan fully paid off after 12 months? Is it an "interest only" loan?
- 3pt14159 12y ago
  23.6% interest rate of "simple" interest (ie, non-NPV accounting). Pay 103 per month for 12 months. = $1236 per $1000.
  - xexers 12y ago
    I get that math if it explicitly said that this is a 1 year loan - but it doesn't. How do you know this wasn't a 4 year loan? and you pay $103 per month for 4 years? or how do you know that this wasn't an "interest only loan" and you pay $103 in interest every month... and if you want to pay down any principle, then that would be anything that you pay above $103/month.
    - woofyman 12y ago
      It says 12 equal monthly payments. 4 years would be 48 monthly payments. The terms of the loan are clearly stared.
      - hifier 12y ago
        I see how it can be read that way, but it is far from clear. Not to mention that the design of the 'ad' makes it susceptible to misinterpretation.
        bbwharris 12y ago
        That's the point right? The problem is very clear when you read it carefully. Which is also one of the skills its trying to tease out. It is rated as a 5 out of 5 being the most difficult.
ffk 12y ago
The tech section of the test looks poorly designed to me. It takes a poorly designed website, asks users to navigate it, and scores them upon following an expected path. In the example question, to determine whether you need to pay for a job searching site, you should click on "Learn More" which takes you to a sign up form and asks for a CC. Sample Tech questions: https://www.oecd.org/site/piaac/Problem%20Solving%20in%20TRE%20Sample%20Items.pdf https://www.oecd.org/site/piaac/Problem%20Solving%20in%20TRE...
sandworm 12y ago
Least skilled at skills western employers do not care about. I totally disagree that literacy and problem solving are what employers look for today. Maybe in the 80s. Today it's about non-written communication and teamwork skills. In short: Networking. The ability to write a good memo doesn't enter into things because in today's climate information only flows top-down. Does anyone believe that Starbucks passed the #RaceTogether idea past even a single barista? A single store manager? Entry-level employees don't express ideas through writing. That's for management. Evidence from local governments trying to help: http://www.careers.govt.nz/plan-your-career/not-sure-what-to-do/skills-employers-are-looking-for/#cID_115 http://www.careers.govt.nz/plan-your-career/not-sure-what-to... (1) communication skills (2) customer service skills – in person, on the phone, and online (3) ability to work well in a team (4) literacy and numeracy skills FORTH! http://www.kent.ac.uk/careers/sk/top-ten-skills.htm http://www.kent.ac.uk/careers/sk/top-ten-skills.htm (Commentary by me) 1. Verbal Communication. ("Here!") 2. Teamwork. (doesn't punch people) 3. Work confidently within a group. (not afraid of being punched by others) 4. Commercial Awareness. (doesn't click phishing links) 5. Analyzing & Investigating. (doesn't bother the boss with questions) 6. Initiative / Sell--Motivation. (can work unsupervised) 7. Written communication SEVENTH!
thebear 12y ago
I looked at the first math question: http://nces.ed.gov/surveys/piaac/figures/sample_num1.asp http://nces.ed.gov/surveys/piaac/figures/sample_num1.asp First off, the statement describing the graph ("The following graph shows the number of births in the United States 1957 to 2007. Data is presented every 10 years.") is a bit odd. The graph shows the number of births per year for 6 of the 51 years from 1957 to 2007, at 10 year intervals. That's not really "the number of births in the United States 1957 to 2007." But let's say that's fine. Then they ask, "During which period(s) was there a decline in the number of births?" There is no such thing as "a decline in the number of births." The number of births always increases. There can be a decline in the rate of births per time, e.g., the number of births per year. But giving the number of births per year every ten years is not enough information to make a complete statement about births per time during the ten year periods. There may have been (and probably were) declines during each of those periods. In other words, it is impossible to "click all that apply."

36 points by paralelogram 12y ago

Speaking of literacy, Gen Yers has to be the most clumsy abbreviation I have ever seen.

I'm imagining the scene where a bunch of American Millenials were asked to solve basic math problems and computer literacy tests. "Jeez this is pointless," one said. "Yeah, reminds me of high school," said another. And they twiddled their thumbs until it was over. While I'm sure these are relevant statistics, I don't see it having much bearing on real competitiveness going forward. There's no measure of creativity, adaptability, or tenacity. Show me Americans are lagging in those and I'll start to worry.

consz 12y ago
What proof is there that creativity, adaptability, tenacity are better skills to have than the ones tested in the article? Or that the skills you mentioned are not consequences of the ones mentioned in the article?
- greenyoda 12y ago
  For that matter, the ability of these tests to predict success hasn't been very good over time. From another recent article on HN: "In truth, though, the United States has never done well on international tests, and they are not good predictors of our national success. Since 1964, when the first such exam was administered to 13-year-olds in 12 countries, America has lagged behind its peers, rarely rising above the middle of the pack and doing particularly poorly in science and math. And yet over these past five decades, that same laggard country has dominated the world of science, technology, research and innovation."[1] [1] http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/why-stem-wont-make-us-successful/2015/03/26/5f4604f2-d2a5-11e4-ab77-9646eea6a4c7_story.html?hpid=z3 http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/why-stem-wont-make-us... (via https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9285423 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9285423)
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - throwaway43 12y ago
    Because America imports all the best brains from all over the world using the H1B program ?
    - tfussell 12y ago
      But why don't other counties do this if they're so smart?
atlantic 12y ago
I looked through some of the questions. Simple things like being able to read a chart or to calculate an interest rate. How would this not have any bearing on productivity?
joezydeco 12y ago
Tenacity can also be defined as doing things you don't always want to do, like taking a skills test.
weina67 12y ago
hey rquantz, can you please contact me at weinanas@gmail.com. I have an urgent matter to talk to you about

dismal2 12y ago

Good way to explain away the lack of jobs and wage growth this generation faces. I think the solution is either more unpaid internships, more debt or both.

dllu 12y ago

Looks like they got an American Millenial to design their quiz: http://i.imgur.com/j4b73bz.png http://i.imgur.com/j4b73bz.png

bshimmin 12y ago
I got as far as an impressive message which said, "The content in the Education & Skills Online Exam only supports Firefox 10+. Please close the browser you are currently using and re-launch using Firefox."

twrkit 12y ago

Oh yeah? Well American Millennials are by far the world's most educated and knowledgeable about anthropology, sociology, race and gender studies, psychology, social media activism (aka, changing your Facebook default pic to #KONY2012), beer pong, how to find a good deal on Etsy, et al. When would we ever need to use that math stuff when uploading selfies, binging on Netflix, or ordering pour over coffee?

sehr 12y ago
Are you really including the humanities with beer pong, selfies and Netflix?

simonswords82 12y ago

I'm not sure how the stats here in the UK compare with the US but I'd be interested to know. Especially as we have a government backed apprenticeship scheme which takes largely unskilled young people of age 16 upwards and funds their training on the job. I've had countless apprentices work for my software company and it's such a win-win for employer and employee. My company gets dedicated, passionate, diligent and most importantly enthusiastic young people to train in the art of building websites. In return our apprentices get paid and they get to learn a skill in a workplace environment. We end up with employees who are ridiculously loyal, and they end up with a career. I'm sure we've saved a large number of kids from menial jobs at <insert large megacorp> while they work out how to get a career. Does the US have a similar scheme? If so it must surely be one way to help resolve this issue?

lnlyplnt 12y ago

The one big problem with this exam is that the candidates are not well normalized across countries. You don't really get an apples to apples comparison since countries like Japan have a tendency to cherry pick who takes the test.

johnkchow 12y ago

My parents immigrated to America in the 80's from China, and they simply thought that a college degree was the gateway to social mobility. They never thought that the skills learned in college would matter that much. Most parents in my community thought the same way. Most parents didn't speak English, so my generation was further isolated from the job market demands. Going to college, my friends and I had little idea of what we wanted to, not because we were indecisive but because we simply didn't know what jobs we could do. I saw many friends study history, music and foreign languages, and they struggled after graduating because they realized that their degrees aren't guarantees for good jobs. The struggles weren't due to lack of desires or efforts. In my opinion, it's the disconnect between the perceived value in education and the actual skills needed for the work place. Raising awareness, such as vocational classes in high school and required internships as a prerequisite for college graduation, would have been tremendous for my generation. At the very least, it would have helped us realize that there's this gap between what we're learning in school versus what's actually needed in the work force.

redthrow 12y ago
Take a look at Roger Shank's "Education Outrage" blog. "Community college wouldn’t be necessary if the high schools weren't broken." http://educationoutrage.blogspot.ca/2015/01/free-community-college-why-how-about-we.html http://educationoutrage.blogspot.ca/2015/01/free-community-c...

xexers 12y ago

Is there enough information in this question to answer it? https://i.imgur.com/qoSuV4Z.png https://i.imgur.com/qoSuV4Z.png Is the loan fully paid off after 12 months? Is it an "interest only" loan?

3pt14159 12y ago
23.6% interest rate of "simple" interest (ie, non-NPV accounting). Pay 103 per month for 12 months. = $1236 per $1000.
- xexers 12y ago
  I get that math if it explicitly said that this is a 1 year loan - but it doesn't. How do you know this wasn't a 4 year loan? and you pay $103 per month for 4 years? or how do you know that this wasn't an "interest only loan" and you pay $103 in interest every month... and if you want to pay down any principle, then that would be anything that you pay above $103/month.
  - woofyman 12y ago
    It says 12 equal monthly payments. 4 years would be 48 monthly payments. The terms of the loan are clearly stared.
    - hifier 12y ago
      I see how it can be read that way, but it is far from clear. Not to mention that the design of the 'ad' makes it susceptible to misinterpretation.
      - bbwharris 12y ago
        That's the point right? The problem is very clear when you read it carefully. Which is also one of the skills its trying to tease out. It is rated as a 5 out of 5 being the most difficult.

ffk 12y ago

The tech section of the test looks poorly designed to me. It takes a poorly designed website, asks users to navigate it, and scores them upon following an expected path. In the example question, to determine whether you need to pay for a job searching site, you should click on "Learn More" which takes you to a sign up form and asks for a CC. Sample Tech questions: https://www.oecd.org/site/piaac/Problem%20Solving%20in%20TRE%20Sample%20Items.pdf https://www.oecd.org/site/piaac/Problem%20Solving%20in%20TRE...

sandworm 12y ago

Least skilled at skills western employers do not care about. I totally disagree that literacy and problem solving are what employers look for today. Maybe in the 80s. Today it's about non-written communication and teamwork skills. In short: Networking. The ability to write a good memo doesn't enter into things because in today's climate information only flows top-down. Does anyone believe that Starbucks passed the #RaceTogether idea past even a single barista? A single store manager? Entry-level employees don't express ideas through writing. That's for management. Evidence from local governments trying to help: http://www.careers.govt.nz/plan-your-career/not-sure-what-to-do/skills-employers-are-looking-for/#cID_115 http://www.careers.govt.nz/plan-your-career/not-sure-what-to... (1) communication skills (2) customer service skills – in person, on the phone, and online (3) ability to work well in a team (4) literacy and numeracy skills FORTH! http://www.kent.ac.uk/careers/sk/top-ten-skills.htm http://www.kent.ac.uk/careers/sk/top-ten-skills.htm (Commentary by me) 1. Verbal Communication. ("Here!") 2. Teamwork. (doesn't punch people) 3. Work confidently within a group. (not afraid of being punched by others) 4. Commercial Awareness. (doesn't click phishing links) 5. Analyzing & Investigating. (doesn't bother the boss with questions) 6. Initiative / Sell--Motivation. (can work unsupervised) 7. Written communication SEVENTH!

thebear 12y ago

I looked at the first math question: http://nces.ed.gov/surveys/piaac/figures/sample_num1.asp http://nces.ed.gov/surveys/piaac/figures/sample_num1.asp First off, the statement describing the graph ("The following graph shows the number of births in the United States 1957 to 2007. Data is presented every 10 years.") is a bit odd. The graph shows the number of births per year for 6 of the 51 years from 1957 to 2007, at 10 year intervals. That's not really "the number of births in the United States 1957 to 2007." But let's say that's fine. Then they ask, "During which period(s) was there a decline in the number of births?" There is no such thing as "a decline in the number of births." The number of births always increases. There can be a decline in the rate of births per time, e.g., the number of births per year. But giving the number of births per year every ten years is not enough information to make a complete statement about births per time during the ten year periods. There may have been (and probably were) declines during each of those periods. In other words, it is impossible to "click all that apply."