3 ms·

This comment is predicated on an assumption that I'm not sure has a foundation in science: that a child's "language-acquisitive resources" are finite in some wa

This comment is predicated on an assumption that I'm not sure has a foundation in science: that a child's "language-acquisitive resources" are finite in some way, or that a child learning a minority language won't "have room" for other subjects because of it. Because many, many children in the world speak one language at home and another at school, I'm not sure there is any foundation for this assumption.

benbreen 12y ago
Agreed (in fact, given my anecdotal experiences with polyglots from places like Switzerland or Scandinavia, I wouldn't be at all surprised by the finding that learning one language at a young age actually increases facility in other languages). And taking another tack, I think it's important to keep in mind that languages are also vehicles for irreplaceable cultural information that might not be translatable. When we talk about the loss of a language, we're also talking about the loss of conceptual models, epistemologies, turns of phrase, oral traditions, jokes, etc that may be the result of tens of thousands of years of cultural continuity.
freehunter 12y ago
What does have a foundation in science (or reality) is that the teaching of another language means a child won't have room in their daily schedule for other things. There's only so much time in the day. If a child is learning math and science and their main language and other skills for seven hours, sleeps for eight hours, and eats for two hours, that only leaves seven hours in the day to fit in everything else, including play time and exercise. That's the limit on learning languages. We're only good at our first language because we spend our entire lives practicing it. It takes hours and hours and hours of practice and studying to learn another, even as a child. Double that if it's not a commonly spoken language. In Switzerland, it might be possible for everyone to speak English, German, French, Italian, and Romansh if you're around people who speak it for your entire life. But if a child is actually being taught these languages, let's say an hour each day... well what time is there left for anything else? Sure it might not push other knowledge out of their brain, but if it pushes other knowledge out of their reach due to not having time to learn other subjects, that's even worse. How much time will they put in learning a dying language, and what other, more useful knowledge could they have gained otherwise? It's the opportunity cost.
- intopieces 12y ago
  >what other, more useful knowledge could they have gained otherwise? How does one rank the usefulness of knowledge? Language acquisition (and the acquisition of a particular language) is not a skill in isolation. It enhances other skills such as problem solving, logical inference, the ability to recognize patterns, knowledge synthesis... skills I daresay are useful in other fields, such as computer programming. I hear your argument a lot among people who just plain don't like learning languages and think it's "worthless," or that they'll "never use it" -- but the same thing could be said of some mathematical disciplines. However, there is little doubt that those mathematical disciplines contribute to other areas of knowledge.
  - kazagistar 12y ago
    Ranking between categories is hard. But within a category it is much easier. Adding a language like Mandarin, for example, provides very similar mental utility as some dying tongue, but additionally gives the child a useful communication tool later in life.
    - allemagne 12y ago
      >Adding a language like Mandarin, for example, provides very similar mental utility as some dying tongue, but additionally gives the child a useful communication tool later in life Really? How, exactly? Will a significant number of these countries be doing business directly with Chinese counterparts ...who don't already speak English? As someone who learned Mandarin, I can promise that the vast majority of its benefits I've had to go out of my way to enjoy. Why should the small number of people who will find any use at all out of Chinese be valued more than maintaining a language that is significant to their heritage?
  - pbhjpbhj 12y ago
    A partial case study: In Wales ~100% of the population speak English. In the last UK census the numbers who responded that they could _speak_ any old Welsh, Cymraeg, was < 16%. In the city region I live in Cymraeg is at such low demand by parents that there are no secondary schools that use it (except as a subject, like you'd learn a foreign language). Excepting a handful of Patagonians and some ex-pat Welsh there is nowhere outside the country to speak Cymraeg and there is nowhere in the country that it is needed. However, all primary school children are forced to use "incidental Welsh" in every single subject lesson. In my kids school there are Urdu, Mandarin, Swedish, Spanish speaking kids .. but none that speak Cymraeg at home as a domestic language. Most people who can speak some Cymraeg can't write in it and aren't fluent. Of those that are fluent the majority 75-80% use English for emails and texts and social media (per a recent study by the Office of the Welsh Language Commissioner). Yet still, all subjects in primary school are hobbled by backward looking misguided nationalism - at present rates the only kids who will use Cymraeg in a job post-school are those in the Welsh Language Commission. It serves no useful purpose for the kids but it's treated as more important than maths, science, English, ... Now, I've nothing against languages. I find them fascinating but in mainstream education languages should be taught first as a means of communication. If people want to learn them later so they can hide away and not talk to people from other cultures that's fine - but that's not what compulsory schooling should be about. Aside, how does language learning of itself improve problem solving?
Spooky23 12y ago
The limited amount of Chinese that I learned and remember from a multi-week workshop that I attended in 4th grade has been more useful than whatever else would have been done during that time. After having a child, I've become far more conscious of people who have lots of concerns about everyone's children. If learning Gaelic or Navaho instead of something else is a problem, it's not one that I'm worried about. Well rounded education is more important to me.

benbreen 12y ago

Agreed (in fact, given my anecdotal experiences with polyglots from places like Switzerland or Scandinavia, I wouldn't be at all surprised by the finding that learning one language at a young age actually increases facility in other languages). And taking another tack, I think it's important to keep in mind that languages are also vehicles for irreplaceable cultural information that might not be translatable. When we talk about the loss of a language, we're also talking about the loss of conceptual models, epistemologies, turns of phrase, oral traditions, jokes, etc that may be the result of tens of thousands of years of cultural continuity.

freehunter 12y ago

What does have a foundation in science (or reality) is that the teaching of another language means a child won't have room in their daily schedule for other things. There's only so much time in the day. If a child is learning math and science and their main language and other skills for seven hours, sleeps for eight hours, and eats for two hours, that only leaves seven hours in the day to fit in everything else, including play time and exercise. That's the limit on learning languages. We're only good at our first language because we spend our entire lives practicing it. It takes hours and hours and hours of practice and studying to learn another, even as a child. Double that if it's not a commonly spoken language. In Switzerland, it might be possible for everyone to speak English, German, French, Italian, and Romansh if you're around people who speak it for your entire life. But if a child is actually being taught these languages, let's say an hour each day... well what time is there left for anything else? Sure it might not push other knowledge out of their brain, but if it pushes other knowledge out of their reach due to not having time to learn other subjects, that's even worse. How much time will they put in learning a dying language, and what other, more useful knowledge could they have gained otherwise? It's the opportunity cost.

intopieces 12y ago
>what other, more useful knowledge could they have gained otherwise? How does one rank the usefulness of knowledge? Language acquisition (and the acquisition of a particular language) is not a skill in isolation. It enhances other skills such as problem solving, logical inference, the ability to recognize patterns, knowledge synthesis... skills I daresay are useful in other fields, such as computer programming. I hear your argument a lot among people who just plain don't like learning languages and think it's "worthless," or that they'll "never use it" -- but the same thing could be said of some mathematical disciplines. However, there is little doubt that those mathematical disciplines contribute to other areas of knowledge.
- kazagistar 12y ago
  Ranking between categories is hard. But within a category it is much easier. Adding a language like Mandarin, for example, provides very similar mental utility as some dying tongue, but additionally gives the child a useful communication tool later in life.
  - allemagne 12y ago
    >Adding a language like Mandarin, for example, provides very similar mental utility as some dying tongue, but additionally gives the child a useful communication tool later in life Really? How, exactly? Will a significant number of these countries be doing business directly with Chinese counterparts ...who don't already speak English? As someone who learned Mandarin, I can promise that the vast majority of its benefits I've had to go out of my way to enjoy. Why should the small number of people who will find any use at all out of Chinese be valued more than maintaining a language that is significant to their heritage?
- pbhjpbhj 12y ago
  A partial case study: In Wales ~100% of the population speak English. In the last UK census the numbers who responded that they could _speak_ any old Welsh, Cymraeg, was < 16%. In the city region I live in Cymraeg is at such low demand by parents that there are no secondary schools that use it (except as a subject, like you'd learn a foreign language). Excepting a handful of Patagonians and some ex-pat Welsh there is nowhere outside the country to speak Cymraeg and there is nowhere in the country that it is needed. However, all primary school children are forced to use "incidental Welsh" in every single subject lesson. In my kids school there are Urdu, Mandarin, Swedish, Spanish speaking kids .. but none that speak Cymraeg at home as a domestic language. Most people who can speak some Cymraeg can't write in it and aren't fluent. Of those that are fluent the majority 75-80% use English for emails and texts and social media (per a recent study by the Office of the Welsh Language Commissioner). Yet still, all subjects in primary school are hobbled by backward looking misguided nationalism - at present rates the only kids who will use Cymraeg in a job post-school are those in the Welsh Language Commission. It serves no useful purpose for the kids but it's treated as more important than maths, science, English, ... Now, I've nothing against languages. I find them fascinating but in mainstream education languages should be taught first as a means of communication. If people want to learn them later so they can hide away and not talk to people from other cultures that's fine - but that's not what compulsory schooling should be about. Aside, how does language learning of itself improve problem solving?

Spooky23 12y ago

The limited amount of Chinese that I learned and remember from a multi-week workshop that I attended in 4th grade has been more useful than whatever else would have been done during that time. After having a child, I've become far more conscious of people who have lots of concerns about everyone's children. If learning Gaelic or Navaho instead of something else is a problem, it's not one that I'm worried about. Well rounded education is more important to me.