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Incredible that Darwin should need defending in any advanced country today. I'm also a university (associate) professor and though I don't teach evolution per s

by stenl 12y ago

Incredible that Darwin should need defending in any advanced country today. I'm also a university (associate) professor and though I don't teach evolution per se it obviously crops up now and then (I teach molecular biology, in Sweden). None of the students ever (ever!) even as much as hinted that evolution might be questionable. But some of the foreign postdocs of course are religious. There was one guy (catholic) who believed the Earth was created 4000 years ago by God including all the evidence for evolution as a kind of mind trick on scientists. I find it hard to understand how you can hold such weird beliefs and also be a scientist, but it isn't very rare.

crimsonalucard 12y ago
It's not incredible at all. Humans are conflicted creatures. The bias and irrational thought we see in religious people are weaknesses inherent in all of us. Bias by it's nature and definition means that we will never be able to understand our own prejudices by observing ourselves. We can only seek to understand it by observing it in other people.
- eivarv 12y ago
  That's not entirely true, though. By being aware of ones biases, one can attempt to overcome them, or at least modulate one's thoughts and actions to take into account the fact that they are there. Take Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, for instance, in which patients seek to recognize their own biased ways of thinking in order to lessen their biases and dissociate these thoughts from emotion and action. The same principles applies to reflecting upon one's thought processes (metacognition) in general, though perhaps to a lesser degree. While becoming aware of one's biases by oneself is difficult, one can understand ones own prejudices - certainly those that we know that more or less everybody has a propensity towards. In my opinion, these biases and irrational thoughts are not weaknesses inherent in all of us. I think they are rather something we all have potential for, but which is expressed differently in each of us.
mcguire 12y ago
Sweden is a very unified country. The US is not.
ylem 12y ago
I thought the Catholic church was ok with evolution, the big bang theory, etc.
- acqq 12y ago
  From the article: "When I again pointed out that John Paul accepted evolution—and he certainly wasn’t an atheist—the student countered that Catholics aren’t Christians. Several simply let me know they will be praying for me and praying hard. One student explained that as a devout Catholic he had no choice but to reject evolution. He accused me of fabricating the pope’s statements. When I explained that he could go to the Vatican website for verification or call the Vatican to talk to a scientist, he insisted that there was no such information available from the Vatican. He then pointed his finger at me and said the only way he would believe me is if Pope John Paul II came to my class to confirm these quotes face-to-face. The student then stomped out, again slamming the auditorium door behind him." From the Pope's mouth (2007): http://w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/speeches/2007/july/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20070724_clero-cadore.html http://w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/speeches/2007/j... "Currently, I see in Germany, but also in the United States, a somewhat fierce debate raging between so-called "creationism" and evolutionism, presented as though they were mutually exclusive alternatives: those who believe in the Creator would not be able to conceive of evolution, and those who instead support evolution would have to exclude God. This antithesis is absurd because (...) there are so many scientific proofs in favour of evolution which appears to be a reality we can see and which enriches our knowledge of life and being as such."
- RogerL 12y ago
  It is, but as significant number of people have not gotten the memo, or have been told but refuse to accept it.
- marcosdumay 12y ago
  It is. But some people will believe in anything they want, and are completely sure that they have institutional support. (And the fact that even the institution is questionable won't even cross their minds.) That happens for every kind of institution, not only religious. Violent sports fans are a very explicit example.
noir_lord 12y ago
It's incredible even for non-scientists like myself. That people deny reality when there is such an overwhelming mountain of evidence that the Earth is over 4000 years old (as one example) is deeply depressing.
sklivvz1971 12y ago
Catholics can't fundamentally choose what to believe in. There's a unique interpretation of the Bible, the catechism, which supports "directed evolution". Are you sure he's not a Baptist? See for example: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/10/28/pope-francis-backs-theory-of-evolution-says-god-is-no-wizard/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/10/28...
- jamestnz 12y ago
  >There's a unique interpretation of the Bible, the catechism, which supports "directed evolution" Actually, doctrinally, Catholics are free to believe in believe in evolution or not. The Church accepts scientific evidence of evolution, but does not make it a policy issue, so to speak. Contrast this with, say, the Church's stance on belief in the literal historicity of Adam and Eve (and a whole slew of specific claims besides), which is core Catholic doctrine and a non-negotiable belief. You don't need to take my word for it, the Vatican has the Catechism full-text online. You can read the Catechesis on Creation for yourself, where you'll see: "The question about the origins of the world and of man has been the object of many scientific studies which have splendidly enriched our knowledge of the age and dimensions of the cosmos, the development of life-forms and the appearance of man. These discoveries invite us to even greater admiration for the greatness of the Creator, prompting us to give him thanks for all his works and for the understanding and wisdom he gives to scholars and researchers..." Which hardly seems to be taking as forceful a stand as you imply. http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p4.htm http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2... >Catholics can't fundamentally choose what to believe in Seriously? Have you met any adherent of any organised religion ever? :-)
- stenl 12y ago
  Sorry, I should have said "from a predominantly catholic country".

by stenl 12y ago

crimsonalucard 12y ago

It's not incredible at all. Humans are conflicted creatures. The bias and irrational thought we see in religious people are weaknesses inherent in all of us. Bias by it's nature and definition means that we will never be able to understand our own prejudices by observing ourselves. We can only seek to understand it by observing it in other people.

eivarv 12y ago
That's not entirely true, though. By being aware of ones biases, one can attempt to overcome them, or at least modulate one's thoughts and actions to take into account the fact that they are there. Take Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, for instance, in which patients seek to recognize their own biased ways of thinking in order to lessen their biases and dissociate these thoughts from emotion and action. The same principles applies to reflecting upon one's thought processes (metacognition) in general, though perhaps to a lesser degree. While becoming aware of one's biases by oneself is difficult, one can understand ones own prejudices - certainly those that we know that more or less everybody has a propensity towards. In my opinion, these biases and irrational thoughts are not weaknesses inherent in all of us. I think they are rather something we all have potential for, but which is expressed differently in each of us.

mcguire 12y ago

Sweden is a very unified country. The US is not.

ylem 12y ago

I thought the Catholic church was ok with evolution, the big bang theory, etc.

acqq 12y ago
From the article: "When I again pointed out that John Paul accepted evolution—and he certainly wasn’t an atheist—the student countered that Catholics aren’t Christians. Several simply let me know they will be praying for me and praying hard. One student explained that as a devout Catholic he had no choice but to reject evolution. He accused me of fabricating the pope’s statements. When I explained that he could go to the Vatican website for verification or call the Vatican to talk to a scientist, he insisted that there was no such information available from the Vatican. He then pointed his finger at me and said the only way he would believe me is if Pope John Paul II came to my class to confirm these quotes face-to-face. The student then stomped out, again slamming the auditorium door behind him." From the Pope's mouth (2007): http://w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/speeches/2007/july/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20070724_clero-cadore.html http://w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/speeches/2007/j... "Currently, I see in Germany, but also in the United States, a somewhat fierce debate raging between so-called "creationism" and evolutionism, presented as though they were mutually exclusive alternatives: those who believe in the Creator would not be able to conceive of evolution, and those who instead support evolution would have to exclude God. This antithesis is absurd because (...) there are so many scientific proofs in favour of evolution which appears to be a reality we can see and which enriches our knowledge of life and being as such."
RogerL 12y ago
It is, but as significant number of people have not gotten the memo, or have been told but refuse to accept it.
marcosdumay 12y ago
It is. But some people will believe in anything they want, and are completely sure that they have institutional support. (And the fact that even the institution is questionable won't even cross their minds.) That happens for every kind of institution, not only religious. Violent sports fans are a very explicit example.

noir_lord 12y ago

It's incredible even for non-scientists like myself. That people deny reality when there is such an overwhelming mountain of evidence that the Earth is over 4000 years old (as one example) is deeply depressing.

sklivvz1971 12y ago

Catholics can't fundamentally choose what to believe in. There's a unique interpretation of the Bible, the catechism, which supports "directed evolution". Are you sure he's not a Baptist? See for example: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/10/28/pope-francis-backs-theory-of-evolution-says-god-is-no-wizard/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/10/28...

jamestnz 12y ago
>There's a unique interpretation of the Bible, the catechism, which supports "directed evolution" Actually, doctrinally, Catholics are free to believe in believe in evolution or not. The Church accepts scientific evidence of evolution, but does not make it a policy issue, so to speak. Contrast this with, say, the Church's stance on belief in the literal historicity of Adam and Eve (and a whole slew of specific claims besides), which is core Catholic doctrine and a non-negotiable belief. You don't need to take my word for it, the Vatican has the Catechism full-text online. You can read the Catechesis on Creation for yourself, where you'll see: "The question about the origins of the world and of man has been the object of many scientific studies which have splendidly enriched our knowledge of the age and dimensions of the cosmos, the development of life-forms and the appearance of man. These discoveries invite us to even greater admiration for the greatness of the Creator, prompting us to give him thanks for all his works and for the understanding and wisdom he gives to scholars and researchers..." Which hardly seems to be taking as forceful a stand as you imply. http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p4.htm http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2... >Catholics can't fundamentally choose what to believe in Seriously? Have you met any adherent of any organised religion ever? :-)
stenl 12y ago
Sorry, I should have said "from a predominantly catholic country".