5 ms·

Growing up in the late 20th century, I cannot imagine not having gone to university. Without it, I'd still live in a small village and probably doing some menia

by ht_th 12y ago

Growing up in the late 20th century, I cannot imagine not having gone to university. Without it, I'd still live in a small village and probably doing some menial work in a factory or on a farm. I would not have had the experience of focussing on a subject for five years straight. I would not have had the experience of being able to reflect on society and my role in it. I would not have had the experience of discovering ideas far beyond my imagination during my teenage years. Was it worth it? To me, certainly. To society at large? The society being a post-industrial society morphing into an information society, having yet another worker for factories or farms that do not need it, does not seem to be a good contribution. I went to university, and because of that I contributed in ways I would never have been able otherwise: I've taught in high school; I've done historical research at a university; and I've done research on how to better prepare our children for participation in the information society. But was it worth it? To be honest—without being a reductionist—, my contributions to society are slim. Maybe I've effected one or two students in a way that will set them on a path true contribution to society. Maybe I've effected others to take a wrong turn. I don't know. And my research? In the end its target audience was a small research community and, although I've been cited enough, its impact is just a drop, if that at all. But that is just me. I imagine that your stories and those of other who went to university are similar in a way. Our contributions might be tiny, but what about taking together all of our tiny contributions?

dreamdu5t 12y ago
I never went to HS or college. It's pretty easy to learn if you're motivated and have an internet connection. I have a high-paying career that I made for myself. Of course, whenever I bring this up people write me off as some kind of genius (I'm not) or some kind of exception. I'm really not. Yes, statistics show that going to college is correlated with more financial success than those who do not attend college. I suspect that has more to do with the demographics associated with those who attend college rather than what was learned in college. Regardless, my problem with college is they take zero responsibility for their student's success while simultaneously employing rhetoric and advertising that tells kids that it will help them get a job. This is borderline fraud. Colleges should not be able to sell kids degrees on the idea that they will get a job with them whilst not actually accomplishing that. What do I mean by taking responsibility for success? There are trade schools where if you don't get a job within X years you only owe a fraction of the tuition (or none at all).
- megaman821 12y ago
  What gives you the impressions that colleges are some sort of job training program? Having experience is much more beneficial for preparing and gaining a job. A degree without the accompanying internship, volunteer work, or portfolio is not worth as much to an employer.
  - dropit_sphere 12y ago
    >What gives you the impression that colleges are some sort of job training program? Oh, you know, just my entire upbringing. Job ads asking for a B.S, M.S., or Ph.D. help too.
- sprusr 12y ago
  I'm a high school student in the UK in the process of applying to university courses beginning September this year. I haven't really put much thought into why I'm applying to universities as opposed to doing something else. It just seems like the done thing. I consider myself fairly knowledgeable when it comes to programming and software design, but if I were to be thrust into a working environment right now I'm sure I'd be woefully unprepared. My thought has always been that these kinds of 'working' skills are what you get at university, but really I have no idea. Ultimately I quite dislike the world of assignments and exams, and entering into university I assume will just be a continuation of this. Your comment has really made me start considering my choices more carefully. This is probably the first time I've even considered going straight into a job in fact. Do you have anything to add? Thoughts or advice? Edit: should clarify that I did realise there were options other than uni but never considered them. Also I realise experience is a key part of 'learning how to work', but even with that in mind I feel like there would be a huge barrier to overcome if I chose to take a job now.
  - TheOtherHobbes 12y ago
    This is one opinion. Please get counter-opinions for balance. IMO only mugs and rich kids go to university in the UK now. I doubt you'll get working skills at uni. Depending on the course, you're more likely to get mind-broadening introductions to CS ideas and techniques you're not yet familiar with - hard stuff about algorithms, difficult languages you wouldn't usually touch, and the like. But you don't get actual work experience unless you do a course with a one-year industrial placement. At best you get solo and group practice projects you can maybe showcase to employers. But - here's the thing. With GitHub and StackOverflow you can get similar project experience working from home. And academically, there is nothing at all you can learn on a CS course you can't learn from books and the Internet. You may have to find and buy a few expensive books - but you'll have to buy the books anyway. Three years from now everyone else will be leaving uni with no practical job experience and three years of debt. You have the potential to have zero debt and one, two, or even three years of practical experience, having built a solid project portfolio that should at least get you on a shortlist for many jobs. And if you're interested in startups and business, you're much better off getting into that as soon as you can. Assumption - you're fine with working hard. If you just want to sleep all day, this plan won't work. There are three downsides. One is that some tech jobs specifically demand a degree. Depending how stupid the company is, HR may specifically filter out non-degreed applicants. That's definitely a downside, but it's only some employers, Another is that uni gives you networking opportunities and personal friendships you won't get at work. Some can last a lifetimem. They certainly have a personal value, and in the top-rank unis they have financial value too. (To be blunt about it.) But if you're applying to Average Uni of Middleshire I'm not sure they're worth three years of debt and the lack of cash later when you're (e.g.) thinking about buying a house. The final downside is that you have to look at the quality and location of the work you can get now. If you're in London or a tech hub like Cambridge, it's worth considering. Likewise Bristol, Leeds, Birmingham, Manchester, and so on. Also, international remote. Well worth exploring. Smaller towns - not so much. I'm sure there are small-town jobs with a future, but personally I've never seen one advertised anywhere. So this only works if you have a realistic chance of a job with some prospects. If it's a crappy timewasting job where you learn nothing and get paid peanuts - no. Of course you have to avoid those later too. They don't go away just because you have a degree... tl;dr - if you decide you absolutely have to have a degree, you can always get one later. But the loan is a huge downside, and it can cripple your choices later. It's smart to at least think about avoiding it. If you decide in the end it's worth the cost, you'll be making a conscious decision, not just following the herd. I'd keep applying, just because. But unless things have changed you're not obligated to start a course until you sign up for one. So even if you get offers, you can look around for jobs for the next few months and not sign up for a course if you find something with prospects.
Spearchucker 12y ago
I grew up in an African village of 200, miles from anywhere and anything. I finished school but didn't go to university. Armed with that and my interest in computers I've managed to land jobs at both Microsoft and Nokia. As ever, every example has a counter-example. I don't know which approach is right, but crazy grateful I didn't go through the American system. The cost strikes me as crippling.
- guyzero 12y ago
  In most other Western countries the universities are pretty much the same as American ones, just without the crippling costs. U of T charges $10K USD annually for tuition, for an undergrad science degree, for a Canadian. McGill charges Quebec residents a stunning $2,000 a year for a science degree. There is no significant difference between U of T or McGill and any American university you care to name. Student costs are similar in France and Germany, if not a lot lower. It's simply a question of the US government spending money on things other than educating its citizens.
  - ma2rten 12y ago
    Similar? I don't know about France, but in Germany it's free, in Holland you even get money from the government to study.
    - Retric 12y ago
      My old University in the US charges in state students 7,000$ per year for tuition 2014-2015 it's 10,200/year out of state. Plenty of people come up with most or all of that as working students. And one of my roommates came from Europe because it was cheaper than any school in his country though this was a while ago. My little sister got into a school that charges (ED: 43.2k tuition/year 2015-2016) which she wanted to go to. But, decided to go somewhere else for obvious reason. Some collages in the US charge a lot because they can find students willing to pay that much money, but there plenty of reasonable options.
      - 12y ago
timepiece 12y ago
In the information age and the knowledge society, unfortunately we don't need this industrial revolution legacy of boom in population growth to service factories and mines and the AI era and app economy would exacerbate the problem and squeeze more people. We as humanity at a crossroads in our history as species and a civilization and we need to stand up to this challenge and conquer our problems and fears. Finally, I must congratulate on your contributions to the progress of humanity, every good word counts and every good idea enriches out lives. Thank you for all!

by ht_th 12y ago

dreamdu5t 12y ago

I never went to HS or college. It's pretty easy to learn if you're motivated and have an internet connection. I have a high-paying career that I made for myself. Of course, whenever I bring this up people write me off as some kind of genius (I'm not) or some kind of exception. I'm really not. Yes, statistics show that going to college is correlated with more financial success than those who do not attend college. I suspect that has more to do with the demographics associated with those who attend college rather than what was learned in college. Regardless, my problem with college is they take zero responsibility for their student's success while simultaneously employing rhetoric and advertising that tells kids that it will help them get a job. This is borderline fraud. Colleges should not be able to sell kids degrees on the idea that they will get a job with them whilst not actually accomplishing that. What do I mean by taking responsibility for success? There are trade schools where if you don't get a job within X years you only owe a fraction of the tuition (or none at all).

megaman821 12y ago
What gives you the impressions that colleges are some sort of job training program? Having experience is much more beneficial for preparing and gaining a job. A degree without the accompanying internship, volunteer work, or portfolio is not worth as much to an employer.
- dropit_sphere 12y ago
  >What gives you the impression that colleges are some sort of job training program? Oh, you know, just my entire upbringing. Job ads asking for a B.S, M.S., or Ph.D. help too.
sprusr 12y ago
I'm a high school student in the UK in the process of applying to university courses beginning September this year. I haven't really put much thought into why I'm applying to universities as opposed to doing something else. It just seems like the done thing. I consider myself fairly knowledgeable when it comes to programming and software design, but if I were to be thrust into a working environment right now I'm sure I'd be woefully unprepared. My thought has always been that these kinds of 'working' skills are what you get at university, but really I have no idea. Ultimately I quite dislike the world of assignments and exams, and entering into university I assume will just be a continuation of this. Your comment has really made me start considering my choices more carefully. This is probably the first time I've even considered going straight into a job in fact. Do you have anything to add? Thoughts or advice? Edit: should clarify that I did realise there were options other than uni but never considered them. Also I realise experience is a key part of 'learning how to work', but even with that in mind I feel like there would be a huge barrier to overcome if I chose to take a job now.
- TheOtherHobbes 12y ago
  This is one opinion. Please get counter-opinions for balance. IMO only mugs and rich kids go to university in the UK now. I doubt you'll get working skills at uni. Depending on the course, you're more likely to get mind-broadening introductions to CS ideas and techniques you're not yet familiar with - hard stuff about algorithms, difficult languages you wouldn't usually touch, and the like. But you don't get actual work experience unless you do a course with a one-year industrial placement. At best you get solo and group practice projects you can maybe showcase to employers. But - here's the thing. With GitHub and StackOverflow you can get similar project experience working from home. And academically, there is nothing at all you can learn on a CS course you can't learn from books and the Internet. You may have to find and buy a few expensive books - but you'll have to buy the books anyway. Three years from now everyone else will be leaving uni with no practical job experience and three years of debt. You have the potential to have zero debt and one, two, or even three years of practical experience, having built a solid project portfolio that should at least get you on a shortlist for many jobs. And if you're interested in startups and business, you're much better off getting into that as soon as you can. Assumption - you're fine with working hard. If you just want to sleep all day, this plan won't work. There are three downsides. One is that some tech jobs specifically demand a degree. Depending how stupid the company is, HR may specifically filter out non-degreed applicants. That's definitely a downside, but it's only some employers, Another is that uni gives you networking opportunities and personal friendships you won't get at work. Some can last a lifetimem. They certainly have a personal value, and in the top-rank unis they have financial value too. (To be blunt about it.) But if you're applying to Average Uni of Middleshire I'm not sure they're worth three years of debt and the lack of cash later when you're (e.g.) thinking about buying a house. The final downside is that you have to look at the quality and location of the work you can get now. If you're in London or a tech hub like Cambridge, it's worth considering. Likewise Bristol, Leeds, Birmingham, Manchester, and so on. Also, international remote. Well worth exploring. Smaller towns - not so much. I'm sure there are small-town jobs with a future, but personally I've never seen one advertised anywhere. So this only works if you have a realistic chance of a job with some prospects. If it's a crappy timewasting job where you learn nothing and get paid peanuts - no. Of course you have to avoid those later too. They don't go away just because you have a degree... tl;dr - if you decide you absolutely have to have a degree, you can always get one later. But the loan is a huge downside, and it can cripple your choices later. It's smart to at least think about avoiding it. If you decide in the end it's worth the cost, you'll be making a conscious decision, not just following the herd. I'd keep applying, just because. But unless things have changed you're not obligated to start a course until you sign up for one. So even if you get offers, you can look around for jobs for the next few months and not sign up for a course if you find something with prospects.

Spearchucker 12y ago

I grew up in an African village of 200, miles from anywhere and anything. I finished school but didn't go to university. Armed with that and my interest in computers I've managed to land jobs at both Microsoft and Nokia. As ever, every example has a counter-example. I don't know which approach is right, but crazy grateful I didn't go through the American system. The cost strikes me as crippling.

guyzero 12y ago
In most other Western countries the universities are pretty much the same as American ones, just without the crippling costs. U of T charges $10K USD annually for tuition, for an undergrad science degree, for a Canadian. McGill charges Quebec residents a stunning $2,000 a year for a science degree. There is no significant difference between U of T or McGill and any American university you care to name. Student costs are similar in France and Germany, if not a lot lower. It's simply a question of the US government spending money on things other than educating its citizens.
- ma2rten 12y ago
  Similar? I don't know about France, but in Germany it's free, in Holland you even get money from the government to study.
  - Retric 12y ago
    My old University in the US charges in state students 7,000$ per year for tuition 2014-2015 it's 10,200/year out of state. Plenty of people come up with most or all of that as working students. And one of my roommates came from Europe because it was cheaper than any school in his country though this was a while ago. My little sister got into a school that charges (ED: 43.2k tuition/year 2015-2016) which she wanted to go to. But, decided to go somewhere else for obvious reason. Some collages in the US charge a lot because they can find students willing to pay that much money, but there plenty of reasonable options.
    - 12y ago

timepiece 12y ago

In the information age and the knowledge society, unfortunately we don't need this industrial revolution legacy of boom in population growth to service factories and mines and the AI era and app economy would exacerbate the problem and squeeze more people. We as humanity at a crossroads in our history as species and a civilization and we need to stand up to this challenge and conquer our problems and fears. Finally, I must congratulate on your contributions to the progress of humanity, every good word counts and every good idea enriches out lives. Thank you for all!