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Welcome to the world of Jewish law, in which it's considered acceptable to find ways around rules. For example: Jews aren't allowed to eat leavened food, known

by reuven 12y ago

Welcome to the world of Jewish law, in which it's considered acceptable to find ways around rules. For example: Jews aren't allowed to eat leavened food, known as "chamets," (e.g., bread) on Passover. We're also not allowed to own leavened products. What do you do with all of the food that you bought before Passover? In theory, you have to throw it out, which would be a huge waste of money. The solution is to sell this food to a non-Jew for the duration of the holiday. The contract says that the non-Jew owns these products for seven days (or eight, if you're outside of Israel). At the conclusion of the holiday, the non-Jew sells it back to the Jew, or fails to finalize the sale, or fails to exercise his/her option, etc. Problem solved: Jews don't own chametz. We don't have to throw it out. Is this using a legal loophole? Oh, yes. Is it universally accepted? No, but pretty close to 100% of the religious Jews I know do it. Have there been big arguments over this subject over the years? Of course! It's Jewish religious law, in which arguments are a part of the culture...

darklajid 12y ago
This, by the way, is a huge problem for a German expat in IL (back in DE now) during Passover. Not only do they hide bread, there's a certain golden drink that is just as off limits in all the 'following' supermarkets and that's quite interesting. (I kid. Yes, you don't get bread and beer, in theory. Tel Aviv has lots of shops that aren't Jewish or don't care or .. so it's mostly a sight to be seen and a way to explore the city, looking for more accommodating places..)
- ninguem2 12y ago
  I was lost here for a minute until I finally realized that IL was Israel not Illinois.
  - theandrewbailey 12y ago
    And likewise, DE != Delaware.
    - X-Istence 12y ago
      Unsurprisingly there is a very large population that doesn't reside in the United States of America.
      - chrisbennet 12y ago
        Now that's just crazy talk!
      - reuven 12y ago
        I got a US phone number via Skype, simply because so many of my American clients had no idea how to call internationally. Similarly, for many of my US clients, I provide them with their first-ever opportunity to send a letter (i.e., my check) via international mail.
        thaumasiotes 12y ago
        I'm kind of curious why it makes sense to get a US number to accommodate clients who can't (?!) make international calls, but not to get a mail forwarding service with a US address.
        reuven 12y ago
        I receive, at absolute most, 2-3 US checks in the mail each month. It's not worth paying for such a mail-forwarding service, when I can just tell people, "Go to the post office, ask for a stamp to Israel, and hand it to the postal clerk." Plus, the US number comes with free unlimited calling to the US, so I can call my clients (and family, to be honest) as much as I want.
- ars 12y ago
  Look for gluten free beer, many are (or can be) kosher for Passover.
  - darklajid 12y ago
    And that's supposed to follow the Reinheitsgebot [1]? :-) 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinheitsgebot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinheitsgebot
- golergka 12y ago
  TLV — certainly. But TLV isn't like the rest of the country
anotherevan 12y ago
This reminds me, when I was thirteen, we visited some friends of my parents, in Pennsylvania, who were Mennonites, but there was an Amish community near by and we would see people in the typical garb as well as horse and carts. Once story our friends told us, is that Amish are not allowed to own a house with electricity connected to it. So they never make the final payment on their bank loans, so they never technically own the building. I'm sure this annoys the more devout in their community. Just goes to show that no matter what belief or religion you observe, be it Christian, Jew, Buddhist or Atheist, there will always be those that follow the letter of the law, but not the spirit of the law when it suits their own interests.
- seszett 12y ago
  > no matter what belief or religion you observe, be it Christian, Jew, Buddhist or Atheist, there will always be those that follow the letter of the law, but not the spirit of the law when it suits their own interests. I object to you including "atheist" in this list, as atheism is exactly the opposite of that, it's not like an organized religion where you can follow the spirit of the law or not. It just means you believe that no god exists. Either you believe (or know, if you're atheist) that, or you don't, it's not at all comparable to religions.
  - anotherevan 12y ago
    It's funny. I knew someone was going to have _exactly_ that objection, which is why I purposely why I wrote, "BELIEF or religion" in order to try and be inclusive and not get sidetracked from the main point. Take a large enough group of people in any category, and you're going to find the artists, the lawyers, the zealots, the leaders, the followers, the selfish, the altruistic, the devout, the sticklers, the lackadaisical and everything else. Maybe you just proved my point. :-)
    - seszett 12y ago
      Well, my objection was not on the "belief" part, it was on the "letter of the law" part. Atheism is just not something that has laws that can be interpreted or not. You can't be a "devout atheist" or a "non-practicing atheist", or practice parts of atheism but not others, it makes absolutely no sense. Atheism is by definition a binary property. If you wanted to list different categories including non-religious ones, talking about national laws or vegetarianism would have been pertinent in a way that atheism was not.
jeffwass 12y ago
In my own view, as a reform Jew, many of the Kosher for Passover items that even Orthodox consume are loopholes anyway, like Kosher for Passover cakes. In the words of my friend - "OK, we eat Matzah because when we left Egypt we didn't have time to let the bread rise. But somehow we had time to beat the egg-whites stiff?" For those that don't know, during Passover, the spirit of the law is that we don't eat leavened bread. But it's codified such that IIRC there are five restricted grains, with 18 mins to cook after coming in contact with water. Nowadays, companies make rabbi-approved products such as cookies, cakes, and even generic Cheerios, which are for all intents and purposes leavened, but 'within spec'. * - If you're wondering, IMHO the Kosher for Passover cakes and imitation cheerios are still pretty horrible, more-so the texture than taste. Maybe they're intentionally left this way to remind us they're not the 'real thing'.
- reuven 12y ago
  How about this: The Egyptians invented yeast and leavened bread, and worshipped sheep. So how did Jews celebrate Passover, and the exodus from Egypt? By sacrificing a sheep, and refraining from eating anything made with yeast. When the Temple was destroyed in Jerusalem, the sacrifice disappeared. Only the eating restrictions (beyond regular holiday restrictions) remained. Over the years, different communities decided that other foods looked like grains, or acted like grains, or could be confused with grains. So they (e.g., corn, rice, and lentils) were restricted, as well, as part of this "spirit." In Israel, I'm happy to say that you can get anything you want on Passover, except for things made with the original five grains and allowed to leaven (yes, for 18 minutes). You can have just about anything you want. Which is just fine with me; the point of Passover isn't to suffer, but rather to go without leavened bread for a week. There's nothing inherently wrong with having kosher for Passover cakes. But once you have one, you'll avoid ever doing so again, I promise. (The kosher-for-Passover "rolls" are even worse!) I don't see having such cakes as a loophole, or even contrary to the spirit of the holiday, because the spirit of the holiday is to avoid leavened and bread products.
  - jeffwass 12y ago
    >I don't see having such cakes as a loophole, or even contrary to the spirit of the holiday, because the spirit of the holiday is to avoid leavened and bread products. I don't follow you here. Cakes are leavened, and the spirit of the holiday is to avoid leavened products. In my view, that makes the Kosher for Passover cakes (which are effectively leavened) a loophole. Or are you suggesting the Kosher for Passover cakes are not really leavened?
wdr1 12y ago
> Welcome to the world of Jewish law, in which it's considered acceptable to find ways around rules. Welcome to every religion. As a Catholic, I order pizza at 11:30pm on Good Friday and having probably wolfed down 2 slices by 12:01am after a day of fasting. I have Muslim friends who shift their hours around during Ramadan to sleep during more of the day.
- reuven 12y ago
  That's a very reasonable point to make. That said, I think the fundamental question here is whether such rule-breaking is endorsed by centuries of priests, or if it's just something people do. In Judaism, the rabbis have codified such rule-bending for at least 2,000 years. And we have also been debating whether it's acceptable for as long. :-)_
  - golergka 12y ago
    > rule-breaking > rule-bending These are different.
    - reuven 12y ago
      I think that the difference is in the eye of the beholder. Case in point: When the Conservative movement announced a few years ago that homosexuality is OK, and that it's even fine to have same-sex weddings, they needed to confront the fact that Leviticus explicitly outlaws homosexual relations. The Conservative movement gave all sorts of explanations, and basically said they were bending the rules. Their rabbinical schools currently accept gay and lesbian students. The Orthodox (stricter) world largely said that they had broken the law beyond all recognition, and that this demonstrated that the Conservative movement doesn't take Jewish law seriously. Many rule-bending aspects of Jewish law, even when approved by top rabbis, have been called rule-breaking by opponents.
      - golergka 12y ago
        Everything is in the eyes of the beholder — at least, in law (any kind). That's why opponents are called opponents, because they don't see things as you do.

by reuven 12y ago

darklajid 12y ago

This, by the way, is a huge problem for a German expat in IL (back in DE now) during Passover. Not only do they hide bread, there's a certain golden drink that is just as off limits in all the 'following' supermarkets and that's quite interesting. (I kid. Yes, you don't get bread and beer, in theory. Tel Aviv has lots of shops that aren't Jewish or don't care or .. so it's mostly a sight to be seen and a way to explore the city, looking for more accommodating places..)

ninguem2 12y ago
I was lost here for a minute until I finally realized that IL was Israel not Illinois.
- theandrewbailey 12y ago
  And likewise, DE != Delaware.
  - X-Istence 12y ago
    Unsurprisingly there is a very large population that doesn't reside in the United States of America.
    - chrisbennet 12y ago
      Now that's just crazy talk!
    - reuven 12y ago
      I got a US phone number via Skype, simply because so many of my American clients had no idea how to call internationally. Similarly, for many of my US clients, I provide them with their first-ever opportunity to send a letter (i.e., my check) via international mail.
      - thaumasiotes 12y ago
        I'm kind of curious why it makes sense to get a US number to accommodate clients who can't (?!) make international calls, but not to get a mail forwarding service with a US address.
        reuven 12y ago
        I receive, at absolute most, 2-3 US checks in the mail each month. It's not worth paying for such a mail-forwarding service, when I can just tell people, "Go to the post office, ask for a stamp to Israel, and hand it to the postal clerk." Plus, the US number comes with free unlimited calling to the US, so I can call my clients (and family, to be honest) as much as I want.
ars 12y ago
Look for gluten free beer, many are (or can be) kosher for Passover.
- darklajid 12y ago
  And that's supposed to follow the Reinheitsgebot [1]? :-) 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinheitsgebot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinheitsgebot
golergka 12y ago
TLV — certainly. But TLV isn't like the rest of the country

anotherevan 12y ago

This reminds me, when I was thirteen, we visited some friends of my parents, in Pennsylvania, who were Mennonites, but there was an Amish community near by and we would see people in the typical garb as well as horse and carts. Once story our friends told us, is that Amish are not allowed to own a house with electricity connected to it. So they never make the final payment on their bank loans, so they never technically own the building. I'm sure this annoys the more devout in their community. Just goes to show that no matter what belief or religion you observe, be it Christian, Jew, Buddhist or Atheist, there will always be those that follow the letter of the law, but not the spirit of the law when it suits their own interests.

seszett 12y ago
> no matter what belief or religion you observe, be it Christian, Jew, Buddhist or Atheist, there will always be those that follow the letter of the law, but not the spirit of the law when it suits their own interests. I object to you including "atheist" in this list, as atheism is exactly the opposite of that, it's not like an organized religion where you can follow the spirit of the law or not. It just means you believe that no god exists. Either you believe (or know, if you're atheist) that, or you don't, it's not at all comparable to religions.
- anotherevan 12y ago
  It's funny. I knew someone was going to have _exactly_ that objection, which is why I purposely why I wrote, "BELIEF or religion" in order to try and be inclusive and not get sidetracked from the main point. Take a large enough group of people in any category, and you're going to find the artists, the lawyers, the zealots, the leaders, the followers, the selfish, the altruistic, the devout, the sticklers, the lackadaisical and everything else. Maybe you just proved my point. :-)
  - seszett 12y ago
    Well, my objection was not on the "belief" part, it was on the "letter of the law" part. Atheism is just not something that has laws that can be interpreted or not. You can't be a "devout atheist" or a "non-practicing atheist", or practice parts of atheism but not others, it makes absolutely no sense. Atheism is by definition a binary property. If you wanted to list different categories including non-religious ones, talking about national laws or vegetarianism would have been pertinent in a way that atheism was not.

jeffwass 12y ago

In my own view, as a reform Jew, many of the Kosher for Passover items that even Orthodox consume are loopholes anyway, like Kosher for Passover cakes. In the words of my friend - "OK, we eat Matzah because when we left Egypt we didn't have time to let the bread rise. But somehow we had time to beat the egg-whites stiff?" For those that don't know, during Passover, the spirit of the law is that we don't eat leavened bread. But it's codified such that IIRC there are five restricted grains, with 18 mins to cook after coming in contact with water. Nowadays, companies make rabbi-approved products such as cookies, cakes, and even generic Cheerios, which are for all intents and purposes leavened, but 'within spec'. * - If you're wondering, IMHO the Kosher for Passover cakes and imitation cheerios are still pretty horrible, more-so the texture than taste. Maybe they're intentionally left this way to remind us they're not the 'real thing'.

reuven 12y ago
How about this: The Egyptians invented yeast and leavened bread, and worshipped sheep. So how did Jews celebrate Passover, and the exodus from Egypt? By sacrificing a sheep, and refraining from eating anything made with yeast. When the Temple was destroyed in Jerusalem, the sacrifice disappeared. Only the eating restrictions (beyond regular holiday restrictions) remained. Over the years, different communities decided that other foods looked like grains, or acted like grains, or could be confused with grains. So they (e.g., corn, rice, and lentils) were restricted, as well, as part of this "spirit." In Israel, I'm happy to say that you can get anything you want on Passover, except for things made with the original five grains and allowed to leaven (yes, for 18 minutes). You can have just about anything you want. Which is just fine with me; the point of Passover isn't to suffer, but rather to go without leavened bread for a week. There's nothing inherently wrong with having kosher for Passover cakes. But once you have one, you'll avoid ever doing so again, I promise. (The kosher-for-Passover "rolls" are even worse!) I don't see having such cakes as a loophole, or even contrary to the spirit of the holiday, because the spirit of the holiday is to avoid leavened and bread products.
- jeffwass 12y ago
  >I don't see having such cakes as a loophole, or even contrary to the spirit of the holiday, because the spirit of the holiday is to avoid leavened and bread products. I don't follow you here. Cakes are leavened, and the spirit of the holiday is to avoid leavened products. In my view, that makes the Kosher for Passover cakes (which are effectively leavened) a loophole. Or are you suggesting the Kosher for Passover cakes are not really leavened?

wdr1 12y ago

> Welcome to the world of Jewish law, in which it's considered acceptable to find ways around rules. Welcome to every religion. As a Catholic, I order pizza at 11:30pm on Good Friday and having probably wolfed down 2 slices by 12:01am after a day of fasting. I have Muslim friends who shift their hours around during Ramadan to sleep during more of the day.

reuven 12y ago
That's a very reasonable point to make. That said, I think the fundamental question here is whether such rule-breaking is endorsed by centuries of priests, or if it's just something people do. In Judaism, the rabbis have codified such rule-bending for at least 2,000 years. And we have also been debating whether it's acceptable for as long. :-)_
- golergka 12y ago
  > rule-breaking > rule-bending These are different.
  - reuven 12y ago
    I think that the difference is in the eye of the beholder. Case in point: When the Conservative movement announced a few years ago that homosexuality is OK, and that it's even fine to have same-sex weddings, they needed to confront the fact that Leviticus explicitly outlaws homosexual relations. The Conservative movement gave all sorts of explanations, and basically said they were bending the rules. Their rabbinical schools currently accept gay and lesbian students. The Orthodox (stricter) world largely said that they had broken the law beyond all recognition, and that this demonstrated that the Conservative movement doesn't take Jewish law seriously. Many rule-bending aspects of Jewish law, even when approved by top rabbis, have been called rule-breaking by opponents.
    - golergka 12y ago
      Everything is in the eyes of the beholder — at least, in law (any kind). That's why opponents are called opponents, because they don't see things as you do.