7 ms·

I took piracetam years ago when I was considering a career change and prepping for the LSAT exam. I believe that its legal history is somewhat similar to ephed

I took piracetam years ago when I was considering a career change and prepping for the LSAT exam. I believe that its legal history is somewhat similar to ephedra... 10-15 years ago you could buy it over-the-counter or online, but since then it's been taken off the market in the U.S. Regardless, my experience was that its only value is the placebo effect. If a substance actually does anything real, and there is potential for a pharmaceutical company to patent and profit from it, then you can generally rest assured that it will be scheduled to require a doctor's prescription. For just about everything, the over-the-counter options consist of vitamins and quackery. So either blatantly break the law, or don't. As an aside, what is the point of taking a serious nootropic for software development? Typically, a coder's problem isn't failure to get into a groove once they have uninterrupted time. The typical problem is not having uninterrupted time in the first place. Like most people here, probably, I work in an open floor plan environment. I'm subject to constant "drive-by" interruptions that could have been handled better via email, and a neverending roar all around me as colleagues literally scream at each other about Reddit memes or video games or the latest superhero movie. Do you have a drug that would allow me to completely shut off my hearing, peripheral vision, and other sensory input? So that I can work without having to blast music through $300 noise-canceling headphones (which itself impairs focus, but is the lesser of all evils)? If so, then I would gladly break the law to find a pharmaceutical escape from contemporary office plans that sacrifice productivity for the ability to squeeze headcount into the smallest possible space.

Lewton 12y ago
>Regardless, my experience was that its only value is the placebo effect. If a substance actually does anything real, and there is potential for a pharmaceutical company to patent and profit from it, then you can generally rest assured that it will be scheduled to require a doctor's prescription. For just about everything, the over-the-counter options consist of vitamins and quackery. So either blatantly break the law, or don't. Just a counter-point. Melatonin is OTC in the US (sadly not where I live) and the efficacy of melatonin on sleep quality is pretty hard to dispute. It's not what you'd normally call a nootropic maybe, but having melatonin on hand has significantly improved my life Edit: oh. Yeah. Of course, Adrafinil is OTC in the US too and that's the prodrug for Modafinil. Definitely not placebo either
- falcolas 12y ago
  Prilosec as well. Works remarkably well, for an OTC solution.
- diminoten 12y ago
  > Melatonin is OTC in the US (sadly not where I live) and the efficacy of melatonin on sleep quality is pretty hard to dispute. The Mayo Clinic's website doesn't quite feel as strongly as you do about Melatonin: > The hormone melatonin helps control your natural sleep-wake cycle. Some research suggests that melatonin supplements might be helpful in treating jet lag or reducing the time it takes to fall asleep — although the effect is typically mild. Side effects can include headache and daytime sleepiness. [0] Another page from Mayo Clinic's website: > Melatonin might also reduce the time it takes to fall asleep — although this effect is typically mild. [1] I wouldn't tout Melatonin as the great counterexample of a nootropic that's OTC, considering it's questionable value and limited long-term use. [0] - http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-living/adult-health/in-depth/sleep-aids/art-20047860?pg=2 [1] - http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-living/adult-health/expert-answers/melatonin-side-effects/faq-20057874
  - Lewton 12y ago
    When compared to placebo, Melatonin has no significant side effects[0] [0]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3278206/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3278206/
  - DanBC 12y ago
    The worst part about melatonin is the lack of regulation. When people test the pills available they often find different doses, or even no dose at all.
  - nbouscal 12y ago
    I trust gwern's in-depth analysis significantly more than I trust a blurb from the Mayo Clinic: http://www.gwern.net/Melatonin http://www.gwern.net/Melatonin
- driverdan 12y ago
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
JohnBooty 12y ago
That's so true about the other factors that sap productivity - it's a rare moment when our brains are the limiting factor, rather than the thousands of distractions tugging us from every direction. It's also true, though, that there are things that help us deal somewhat with the distractions - both directly (various ADHD medications, stimulants) and indirectly (getting great sleep, exercise, happy home lives, etc). And, of course, anything that would actually help us during those brief blessed stretches of uninterrupted work would be wonderful as well. > If a substance actually does anything real, and > there is potential for a pharmaceutical company > to patent and profit from it, Well, maybe not? There's two things there - efficacy and potential profitability. There's a whole wealth of substances, from vitamin supplements to aspirin to melatonin, that are quite effective but not overly profitable... at least not on the scale of a blockbuster, patented drug. I don't think there are any magic cures for cancer that fall into the category of "effective, but not profitable" but I do think there's hope that there are substances that might boost brain function by... let's say 5% or 10%, or some other modest but useful amount.
Mahn 12y ago
> As an aside, what is the point of taking a serious nootropic for software development? Typically, a coder's problem isn't failure to get into a groove once they have uninterrupted time. The typical problem is not having uninterrupted time in the first place. Procrastination can also be a pretty big problem for a coder, and theoretically a drug could help there.
- ollysb 12y ago
  There are plenty of process oriented methods for solving this one e.g. pomodoros and outside-in development.
  - JohnBooty 12y ago
    Yes, and in my personal experience they're more effective than drugs alone. In fact, with out a process or at least a process-oriented approach in place, ADHD medication or other stimulants alone can create hilarious-but-frustrating situation where you're all hopped up on meds and your laser-like focus gets "locked onto" something totally useless, like reorganizing your music collection instead of completing the programming task that really needs to be done. However, medication (for those that need it) plus a process-oriented approach (or at least a solid task list) is the most effective combination of all.
    - shostack 12y ago
      Yeah, but next time think of how quickly you'll be able to cut right to the work because of how organized your music will be!
      - JohnBooty 12y ago
        Haha. The sad thing is that's kind of what I tell myself. 10% of my brain: "I know you have a couple hundred lines of code to write before tomorrow morning, soooooooo let's make a playlist! The ultimate programming playlist!" 90% of my brain: "That is the stupidest idea ever. You should really just get your work done and then you can relax, and maybe put a playlist together for next time." 10% of my brain: "Whatever lol I have veto power" Annnnd this is why ADHD is classified as an executive functioning disorder and I have no problem believing it's a distant cousin of OCD.
ionflux 12y ago
have you tried listening to white/pink/brown noise instead of music? it works wonders for my concentration. there are numerous noise generators online, i like this one: http://www.simplynoise.com/ http://www.simplynoise.com/
- rwallace 12y ago
  No. Don't use music or any other form of noise to drown out ambient sounds at work. It causes slow but irreversible damage to your hearing. In game theory terms, such an act constitutes rewarding defection (employer insisting on open plan office) with cooperation (harming yourself in an attempt to help your employer) - always a bad move.
  - ionflux 12y ago
    I didn't know white noise causes hearing damage, sounds plausible, it's mildly annoying; the brown noise though sounds more like a waterfall and the effect is really mild and calming. In my case, we don't have an open plan office, just 3 chatty colleagues in the same space :D And they don't seem to get the headphones-on gesture.
  - TrevorJ 12y ago
    Can you provide some citations for this? At acceptable decibel levels I have a hard time believing this would be the case.
    - rwallace 12y ago
      I don't have any citations ready to hand but it's not a controversial claim; a Google search should find some. Intuitively, think of it this way: 'acceptable decibel levels' are what the human ear is optimized to receive at intermittent peak, not constant all day every day.
  - TheRealDunkirk 12y ago
    I'm a guy who likes music LOUD. Like, walking to class with my Walkman in college would cause people I'd pass to stop talking and stare at me. I've bought new players because they weren't loud enough. I didn't like my Nexus phone (in part) because it wouldn't play music as loud as the iPhone. I'm 46 now, and setup and manage the sound system at my church, where we like it, er, noisy. I can say with confidence that I'm the second-best set of ears in the house (behind the pastor, who has perfect pitch), and that I've lost nothing of my hearing over my lifetime. Additionally, I say that as someone who has had to -- at various gigs -- listen to music in headphones to drown out office noise while I programmed and sysadminned. I know the "loud music causes hearing loss" is a popular thing to say -- I've heard it my whole life, just like "sitting too close to the TV causes vision loss" -- but I just don't think it's true, or at least conflated with normal loss with age (which my wife is finally admitting to). That being said, I've recently started trying various tricyclic antidepressants for migraine prophylaxis, and I've found that they can have quite an influence on concentration. Amitryptilene had a small-but-noticeable effect. Nortriptylene had a PRONOUNCED effect. It was like that movie with Bradley Cooper. I just zoned in for the whole day. I LOVED it, but it was making me (an INTP) completely manic. I'm now trying Desipramine, and it, too, has a small-but-noticeable effect. I'm trying to live with its side effect (itching) by cutting the 10mg pills in half, but it's getting worse again, like it's building up in my system or something. When I'm on these drugs, I don't WANT to listen to music. I find that I _notice_ that it's a distraction. It's been a habit, but I work at home most of the time, and, when my concentration wavers, I stick through the issue by "ducking" it out loud, to myself. So, IANAD, but it seems to me that a low dose of a TCA could be considered a nootropic. There are, like, 9 different drugs in the class, all with varying side effects. I wish I could talk to an expert to correlate the various known brain-chemical effects with the various cognitive and side effects, so that I could chose the best one for me after trying 3. Seems like that ought to be enough information to zero in on the right dopamine, seratonin, et. al. profile for me. If seratonin is the MAIN chemical involved with the concentration side effect, then there's a whole class of SSRI's to deal with. But I don't know.
baccheion 12y ago
>> So that I can work without having to blast music through $300 noise-canceling headphones (which itself impairs focus, but is the lesser of all evils)? Rather than listening to music, you can listen to brainwave entrainment audio (Neuro-Programmer 3 is a good program to generate these). The lack of words prevents distraction, and the audio can entrain your brain to whatever frequency is best for what you are doing (focus, brainstorming, etc). There are videos on YouTube that show EEG readings changing to match the frequency of the audio. Also, Cerebrolysin or Fasoracetam + Coluracetam (especially when combined with exercise and keeping the body in ketosis) are much more likely to be effective than Piracetam.
- abraham_s 12y ago
  >> So that I can work without having to blast music through $300 noise-canceling headphones (which itself impairs focus, but is the lesser of all evils)? I have seen people mention noise-cancelling headphones in the context of noise and open offices. Don't anyone use noise cancelling ear muffs? I am sure listening to music 6-8 hours a day is not good for your ears.
  - baccheion 12y ago
    I saw someone using ear muffs once, and I thought it was a good idea. I like brainwave entrainment (maybe lower the volume, and use passive noise cancelling headphones), as it entrains the brain to the appropriate frequency to help maintain focus, relaxation, creativity, or whatever else you're pushing for. Then again, the only frequency that's "safe" to be listened to long term is 10Hz, and entraining to the other ones take less than 1 hour.
  - JohnBooty 12y ago
    I think people might feel that they look silly with the noise canceling earmuffs - don't they tend to be big and industrial looking? Anyway, good noise-canceling phones can actually reduce the amount of volume you need. Sometimes I just turn the noise canceling on and enjoy the reduction in noise, without even playing music. Or I can play music quietly to mask the background noise, instead of blasting it. Pretty comprehensive review of the market leaders. There's really only one brand of headphone that has solid noise canceling.... http://thewirecutter.com/reviews/best-noise-cancelling-headphones/ http://thewirecutter.com/reviews/best-noise-cancelling-headp...
eatitraw 12y ago
> and there is potential for a pharmaceutical company to patent and profit from it, then you can generally rest assured that it will be scheduled to require a doctor's prescription Guess what? Belgian company did this, it is sold under brand name Nootropil in many countries. The patent is already expired, so there is probably little benefit in bringing it to the US market. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piracetam#History http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piracetam#History
narrator 12y ago
A lot of the more effective nootropics like semax, phenylpiracetam, noopept and cerebrolysin were developed by Russian pharmaceutical companies and are sold as regular pharmaceuticals in Russia. Why is Russia so interested in developing brain drugs? A lot of studies with these drugs are related to fixing brain damage from alcoholism.
api 12y ago
Piracetam is not scheduled and can still be ordered. I've tried it and noted some mild apparent positive effects, and there is some study data backing this. The effect is not dramatic.
codecamper 12y ago
I'm sitting in my camper near Tafraoute, Morocco -- near the painted rocks. There is nobody around for miles (kms actually). Somehow there is 80ms ping 3g internet here. Finally I can concentrate! I'm so happy I don't work in a shared office space -- but they sort of all are shared office spaces. I think my hatred of all that drove me so far away to this place!

Lewton 12y ago

>Regardless, my experience was that its only value is the placebo effect. If a substance actually does anything real, and there is potential for a pharmaceutical company to patent and profit from it, then you can generally rest assured that it will be scheduled to require a doctor's prescription. For just about everything, the over-the-counter options consist of vitamins and quackery. So either blatantly break the law, or don't. Just a counter-point. Melatonin is OTC in the US (sadly not where I live) and the efficacy of melatonin on sleep quality is pretty hard to dispute. It's not what you'd normally call a nootropic maybe, but having melatonin on hand has significantly improved my life Edit: oh. Yeah. Of course, Adrafinil is OTC in the US too and that's the prodrug for Modafinil. Definitely not placebo either

falcolas 12y ago
Prilosec as well. Works remarkably well, for an OTC solution.
diminoten 12y ago
> Melatonin is OTC in the US (sadly not where I live) and the efficacy of melatonin on sleep quality is pretty hard to dispute. The Mayo Clinic's website doesn't quite feel as strongly as you do about Melatonin: > The hormone melatonin helps control your natural sleep-wake cycle. Some research suggests that melatonin supplements might be helpful in treating jet lag or reducing the time it takes to fall asleep — although the effect is typically mild. Side effects can include headache and daytime sleepiness. [0] Another page from Mayo Clinic's website: > Melatonin might also reduce the time it takes to fall asleep — although this effect is typically mild. [1] I wouldn't tout Melatonin as the great counterexample of a nootropic that's OTC, considering it's questionable value and limited long-term use. [0] - http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-living/adult-health/in-depth/sleep-aids/art-20047860?pg=2 [1] - http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-living/adult-health/expert-answers/melatonin-side-effects/faq-20057874
- Lewton 12y ago
  When compared to placebo, Melatonin has no significant side effects[0] [0]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3278206/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3278206/
- DanBC 12y ago
  The worst part about melatonin is the lack of regulation. When people test the pills available they often find different doses, or even no dose at all.
- nbouscal 12y ago
  I trust gwern's in-depth analysis significantly more than I trust a blurb from the Mayo Clinic: http://www.gwern.net/Melatonin http://www.gwern.net/Melatonin
driverdan 12y ago

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

JohnBooty 12y ago

That's so true about the other factors that sap productivity - it's a rare moment when our brains are the limiting factor, rather than the thousands of distractions tugging us from every direction. It's also true, though, that there are things that help us deal somewhat with the distractions - both directly (various ADHD medications, stimulants) and indirectly (getting great sleep, exercise, happy home lives, etc). And, of course, anything that would actually help us during those brief blessed stretches of uninterrupted work would be wonderful as well. > If a substance actually does anything real, and > there is potential for a pharmaceutical company > to patent and profit from it, Well, maybe not? There's two things there - efficacy and potential profitability. There's a whole wealth of substances, from vitamin supplements to aspirin to melatonin, that are quite effective but not overly profitable... at least not on the scale of a blockbuster, patented drug. I don't think there are any magic cures for cancer that fall into the category of "effective, but not profitable" but I do think there's hope that there are substances that might boost brain function by... let's say 5% or 10%, or some other modest but useful amount.

Mahn 12y ago

> As an aside, what is the point of taking a serious nootropic for software development? Typically, a coder's problem isn't failure to get into a groove once they have uninterrupted time. The typical problem is not having uninterrupted time in the first place. Procrastination can also be a pretty big problem for a coder, and theoretically a drug could help there.

ollysb 12y ago
There are plenty of process oriented methods for solving this one e.g. pomodoros and outside-in development.
- JohnBooty 12y ago
  Yes, and in my personal experience they're more effective than drugs alone. In fact, with out a process or at least a process-oriented approach in place, ADHD medication or other stimulants alone can create hilarious-but-frustrating situation where you're all hopped up on meds and your laser-like focus gets "locked onto" something totally useless, like reorganizing your music collection instead of completing the programming task that really needs to be done. However, medication (for those that need it) plus a process-oriented approach (or at least a solid task list) is the most effective combination of all.
  - shostack 12y ago
    Yeah, but next time think of how quickly you'll be able to cut right to the work because of how organized your music will be!
    - JohnBooty 12y ago
      Haha. The sad thing is that's kind of what I tell myself. 10% of my brain: "I know you have a couple hundred lines of code to write before tomorrow morning, soooooooo let's make a playlist! The ultimate programming playlist!" 90% of my brain: "That is the stupidest idea ever. You should really just get your work done and then you can relax, and maybe put a playlist together for next time." 10% of my brain: "Whatever lol I have veto power" Annnnd this is why ADHD is classified as an executive functioning disorder and I have no problem believing it's a distant cousin of OCD.

ionflux 12y ago

have you tried listening to white/pink/brown noise instead of music? it works wonders for my concentration. there are numerous noise generators online, i like this one: http://www.simplynoise.com/ http://www.simplynoise.com/

rwallace 12y ago
No. Don't use music or any other form of noise to drown out ambient sounds at work. It causes slow but irreversible damage to your hearing. In game theory terms, such an act constitutes rewarding defection (employer insisting on open plan office) with cooperation (harming yourself in an attempt to help your employer) - always a bad move.
- ionflux 12y ago
  I didn't know white noise causes hearing damage, sounds plausible, it's mildly annoying; the brown noise though sounds more like a waterfall and the effect is really mild and calming. In my case, we don't have an open plan office, just 3 chatty colleagues in the same space :D And they don't seem to get the headphones-on gesture.
- TrevorJ 12y ago
  Can you provide some citations for this? At acceptable decibel levels I have a hard time believing this would be the case.
  - rwallace 12y ago
    I don't have any citations ready to hand but it's not a controversial claim; a Google search should find some. Intuitively, think of it this way: 'acceptable decibel levels' are what the human ear is optimized to receive at intermittent peak, not constant all day every day.
- TheRealDunkirk 12y ago
  I'm a guy who likes music LOUD. Like, walking to class with my Walkman in college would cause people I'd pass to stop talking and stare at me. I've bought new players because they weren't loud enough. I didn't like my Nexus phone (in part) because it wouldn't play music as loud as the iPhone. I'm 46 now, and setup and manage the sound system at my church, where we like it, er, noisy. I can say with confidence that I'm the second-best set of ears in the house (behind the pastor, who has perfect pitch), and that I've lost nothing of my hearing over my lifetime. Additionally, I say that as someone who has had to -- at various gigs -- listen to music in headphones to drown out office noise while I programmed and sysadminned. I know the "loud music causes hearing loss" is a popular thing to say -- I've heard it my whole life, just like "sitting too close to the TV causes vision loss" -- but I just don't think it's true, or at least conflated with normal loss with age (which my wife is finally admitting to). That being said, I've recently started trying various tricyclic antidepressants for migraine prophylaxis, and I've found that they can have quite an influence on concentration. Amitryptilene had a small-but-noticeable effect. Nortriptylene had a PRONOUNCED effect. It was like that movie with Bradley Cooper. I just zoned in for the whole day. I LOVED it, but it was making me (an INTP) completely manic. I'm now trying Desipramine, and it, too, has a small-but-noticeable effect. I'm trying to live with its side effect (itching) by cutting the 10mg pills in half, but it's getting worse again, like it's building up in my system or something. When I'm on these drugs, I don't WANT to listen to music. I find that I _notice_ that it's a distraction. It's been a habit, but I work at home most of the time, and, when my concentration wavers, I stick through the issue by "ducking" it out loud, to myself. So, IANAD, but it seems to me that a low dose of a TCA could be considered a nootropic. There are, like, 9 different drugs in the class, all with varying side effects. I wish I could talk to an expert to correlate the various known brain-chemical effects with the various cognitive and side effects, so that I could chose the best one for me after trying 3. Seems like that ought to be enough information to zero in on the right dopamine, seratonin, et. al. profile for me. If seratonin is the MAIN chemical involved with the concentration side effect, then there's a whole class of SSRI's to deal with. But I don't know.

baccheion 12y ago

>> So that I can work without having to blast music through $300 noise-canceling headphones (which itself impairs focus, but is the lesser of all evils)? Rather than listening to music, you can listen to brainwave entrainment audio (Neuro-Programmer 3 is a good program to generate these). The lack of words prevents distraction, and the audio can entrain your brain to whatever frequency is best for what you are doing (focus, brainstorming, etc). There are videos on YouTube that show EEG readings changing to match the frequency of the audio. Also, Cerebrolysin or Fasoracetam + Coluracetam (especially when combined with exercise and keeping the body in ketosis) are much more likely to be effective than Piracetam.

abraham_s 12y ago
>> So that I can work without having to blast music through $300 noise-canceling headphones (which itself impairs focus, but is the lesser of all evils)? I have seen people mention noise-cancelling headphones in the context of noise and open offices. Don't anyone use noise cancelling ear muffs? I am sure listening to music 6-8 hours a day is not good for your ears.
- baccheion 12y ago
  I saw someone using ear muffs once, and I thought it was a good idea. I like brainwave entrainment (maybe lower the volume, and use passive noise cancelling headphones), as it entrains the brain to the appropriate frequency to help maintain focus, relaxation, creativity, or whatever else you're pushing for. Then again, the only frequency that's "safe" to be listened to long term is 10Hz, and entraining to the other ones take less than 1 hour.
- JohnBooty 12y ago
  I think people might feel that they look silly with the noise canceling earmuffs - don't they tend to be big and industrial looking? Anyway, good noise-canceling phones can actually reduce the amount of volume you need. Sometimes I just turn the noise canceling on and enjoy the reduction in noise, without even playing music. Or I can play music quietly to mask the background noise, instead of blasting it. Pretty comprehensive review of the market leaders. There's really only one brand of headphone that has solid noise canceling.... http://thewirecutter.com/reviews/best-noise-cancelling-headphones/ http://thewirecutter.com/reviews/best-noise-cancelling-headp...

eatitraw 12y ago

> and there is potential for a pharmaceutical company to patent and profit from it, then you can generally rest assured that it will be scheduled to require a doctor's prescription Guess what? Belgian company did this, it is sold under brand name Nootropil in many countries. The patent is already expired, so there is probably little benefit in bringing it to the US market. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piracetam#History http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piracetam#History

narrator 12y ago

A lot of the more effective nootropics like semax, phenylpiracetam, noopept and cerebrolysin were developed by Russian pharmaceutical companies and are sold as regular pharmaceuticals in Russia. Why is Russia so interested in developing brain drugs? A lot of studies with these drugs are related to fixing brain damage from alcoholism.

api 12y ago

Piracetam is not scheduled and can still be ordered. I've tried it and noted some mild apparent positive effects, and there is some study data backing this. The effect is not dramatic.

codecamper 12y ago

I'm sitting in my camper near Tafraoute, Morocco -- near the painted rocks. There is nobody around for miles (kms actually). Somehow there is 80ms ping 3g internet here. Finally I can concentrate! I'm so happy I don't work in a shared office space -- but they sort of all are shared office spaces. I think my hatred of all that drove me so far away to this place!