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Google Makani – Wind Energy Kites
- blairbeckwith 12y agoCompletely breaks swipe-back gesture in Chrome on a Mac. In a really weird way. Left and right swiping takes you up and down the page. Really awkward.
- sbhere 12y agoScrolling with a standard pointing device was off too. FWIW. YMMV.
- expose 12y agoAcronym professional
- dredmorbius 12y agoChrome on Desktop is no better.
- elevensies 12y agoI'm still a bit confused about how the forces line up for the flight path. If I'm understanding: - the wing flies in a circle which is perpendicular to the wind (oriented the same way an ordinary wind turbine would be) - the tether is up-wind from the wing, so the force from the tether pulls the wing into the wind which generates lift, which is used to propel the wing along the circular path - the propellers are driven by the circular movement of the wing, and generate electricity So the tether and the wing generate movement, the movement spins the propellers, and the propellers drive the generator. Except for take-off and positioning, where they are used as motors. Am I understanding this?
- TylerE 12y agoI think that's more or less it. I think what they're doing is a milder version of dynamic soaring, which is a popular technique used among RC glider pilots (and some birds). The speeds attainable are pretty insane, the current RC record is 505 MPH, which in a rather fascinating twist is faster than the fastest POWERED RC aircraft. This a video that shows a pretty good idea of what it looks like, at compartively slower speeds. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DegX_we1Mic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DegX_we1Mic
- jlebar 12y agoIt's also basically the same idea as used by the people flying trick kites on the beach. Once an aero-astro friend of mine explained that, this whole thing made so much more sense.
- rsuelzer 12y agohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlPI0AOj5MI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlPI0AOj5MI a video of how birds do this in nature. Ever notice hawks circling in high winds?
- mkl 12y agoThis video explained dynamic soaring for me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVN-oF6tPLc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVN-oF6tPLc The key thing seems to be having different wind speeds available at different heights so you can do the upwind part through slower moving air.
- tim333 12y agoCool. I never knew that stuff. There's a vid here of a guy getting his glider to 320kph with wind speeds of only 25-30kph before crashing it into a rock face. Reminds me of my own efforts with a RC glider which crashed into a concrete pillar at ~50mph quite promptly due to my lack of pilot skills. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjWFcYqdgA4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjWFcYqdgA4
- tmd83 12y agoThat video helped a lot. I was getting hopelessly lost with the image. In one part the object is moving in still or slow air where the resistance isn't enough to nullify the gain gained at the higher speed upper layer if I'm understanding this correctly. And finally learned the difference between airspeed vs. groundspeed :D
- exDM69 12y agoMy understanding is that dynamic soaring takes advantage of a cliffside or a ridge to provide upward air current. This project seems to be working on flat ground, so as far as I understand, it's not really using dynamic soaring. I think it works more like regular stunt and power kites, just relying on the "trim" of the airfoil to produce lift and thrust (and the tether's pull) to make it go upwards and then "fall" down.
- MiguelHudnandez 12y agoHere's a Ted talk from 2009 about the early version of the tech. http://www.ted.com/talks/saul_griffith_on_kites_as_the_future_of_renewable_energy?language=en http://www.ted.com/talks/saul_griffith_on_kites_as_the_futur... The tethered airframe converts wind into high-speed lateral motion, sort of like a sailboat would if it were sailing into the wind. These higher speeds can drive the blades faster than if they were simply pointed at a wind source.
- frozenport 12y agoWow 6+ years.
- nether 12y agohardware takes a long time
- barmstrong 12y agoThanks this was my biggest question. I was wondering why it doesn't just stay tethered to the ground in one single position (or as close as possible) flying into the wind. I guess it makes sense if it rotates perpendicular to the wind - like the tip of a rotor blade, to achieve these higher speeds. Would be curious to understand more of the math/physics behind that. But at least intuitively it makes some sense now.
- avn2109 12y agoWe need a free-body diagram here, talking about the balance of forces in English is madness.
- swatow 12y agoOne way to describe it in words is that it's like a normal wind turbine, but instead of 3 blades, you have one wing that moves in a circle like a blade. And instead of the energy being extracted by a generator where the 3 blades meet, the energy is extracted at the wing itself, by many small turbines.
- grownseed 12y agoPlease correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that wind turbines were effectively unsustainable due to the materials they are made of and their actual lifespan not offsetting the initial financial and environmental costs. Now, I understand that this project is supposed to provide greater versatility and efficiency using cheaper materials, but it seems to me (by no means an expert on the subject) that these kites are considerably more prone to damage by their very nature too. Honest question, is this really solving a problem? P.S.: this website is absolutely horrible to navigate.
- josefresco 12y ago"effectively unsustainable" Got any data or a link to a resource that will back this claim up?
- Mandatum 12y agoI think in comparison to existing fossil fuels (price/ROI), in this WIki article they talk about how the drop of oil price meant funding for these types of projects went away: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-altitude_wind_power https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-altitude_wind_power
- krschultz 12y agoI've never heard the argument that current wind turbine are unsustainable before. I don't see why that would be so. The base is concrete, the tower is steel, neither of which is exotic. The generator is pretty standard. All of that is industrial tech we invented a century ago, and we know how to maintain it for the long haul. The blades themselves are composite, that may have some longevity issues (you typically need to paint carbon fiber to prevent UV degradation every view years), but I don't know, they can last for a long time. Fiberglass boats last 50+ years. I would imagine the designed lifecycle of a wind turbine is 25+ years, and I also imagine that the bases will last long beyond that. In 50 years we may have to go around and replace the blades on these things, but that's it.
- grownseed 12y ago
- callesgg 12y agoGood, could people just stop messing with how scrolling works.
- meej 12y agoIronically, it works great with the spacebar. (I've become accustomed to people breaking spacebar scrolling entirely, especially in Firefox.)
- X-combinator 12y agoYeah! hate these kind of websites.
- jv22222 12y agoI hope that menu thing on the top right doesn't become a new trend...
- xbryanx 12y agoI'm with you, but I'm a power user. I wonder if anyone has any sentiment analysis showing whether the average web user likes this sort of thing, or finds it annoying.
- austenallred 12y agoI'm probably a "power user" as well, but I literally cannot navigate the site. It's like 1/3 of my scrolls don't even register. This isn't "design for the masses," it's just plain broken. Edit: I don't know why I'm being downvoted, it must be working for some people. Here is a video of me trying to scroll (in Chrome) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulAw0P2geRE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulAw0P2geRE
- antr 12y agoThe 60% load factor seems a dream come true... well above offshore wind levels (c. 50%). Having said that, I'm very curious to know the capex per MW, and the ongoing O&M costs for each of the kites. Onshore wind has experienced a considerable decline both in the cost of the turbine and O&M... my impression is that this technology is not going to be cheap to run. Anyone has any insight?
- exDM69 12y agoI fly stunt kites and power kites, and what is not immediately apparent to someone who doesn't is that the movement of the kite itself will generate apparent wind (and lift) on the sail/airfoil. Flying in a circle or a figure eight pattern will add a lot of "pull" on the tether. Ie. the load factor of a moving kite is far greater than a stationary kite or propeller. Here's another kite related technology that uses this to their advantage, they have built a giant computer controlled power kite that is used to power cargo ships (they claim 50% fuel savings in favorable conditions). They're also prototyping for electrical power generation. http://www.skysails.info/english/ http://www.skysails.info/english/
- ansible 12y agoWhat gives you the impression that it won't be cheap to run? Presumably, if they've got the automation figured out, each unit will just manage itself, launching when wind conditions are favorable.
- antr 12y agoThe underlying technology for the Makani kites and a standard turbine are the same. In the Makani case you have one kite with eight turbines, and like a standard wind turbine, all turbines need to be serviced. If you have to service 1 turbine, the other 7 stop operating. Hence, on a per turbine basis, I believe availability won't be around the 98-99% level (the industry standard), but lower. Additionally you have the tether, a new variable, which is another moving piece, and will also need to be serviced. I've done some back of the envelope numbers, and without assuming a higher capex (which I'm fairly certain it is), on an recurrent basis, an increase in production doesn't really lead to cheaper $/MWh on an O&M basis. Standard Turbine Makani Capacity (MW) 1.5 0.6 Load factor 23% 60% Production (MWh) 3,022 3,154 Availability 98% 95%[1] Net Production 2,962 2,996 O&M $/turbine/yr 20,000 20,000[2] $/MWh/year $6.75 $6.68 [1] I think I'm being generous at a 95% availability, but I haven't got enough data to make another assumption. [2] O&M can be contracted on a turbine or MW basis. Still, given the "complexity" of Makani, the price of this could be higher than the standard cost. This is a new technology, and not much info is available e.g. how big can these get, what's the investment cost per MW, what are the potential maintenance issues, how does availability look like, etc. My above argument is an educated guess, but I'd really like to know more about it. I really like the idea and I would like the economics to work out.
- deleted 12y ago[deleted]
- robinhowlett 12y agoWould it plummet out of the sky if the wind dropped suddenly?
- jemofthewest 12y agoAt the altitude these will be flying at, the wind is pretty consistent compared to the wind at ground level we're used to. However, I would imagine that the on-board controller could kick on it's propellers or something if the altitude changes too much.
- spot 12y agopresumably it would go into helicopter mode and return to base.
- clebio 12y agoThere's also autorotation, which means you need very little power for a controlled descent (still need some power to steer). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autorotation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autorotation
- imaginenore 12y agoAutorotation only really works for large heavy propellers, like the ones on helicopters.
- clebio 12y agoI don't know. It works for RC helicopters of 500 size or so. I haven't seen autorotation performed with multicopters, though, so not sure how it maps to this application. I'm guessing these are fixed-blade machines. RC heli's manage autorotation via their collective pitch, which RC quadcopters (or hexacopters) don't have (collective). So it might not be relevant. But on the other hand, if the value of avoiding a crash is high enough, they could make the blades collective just for that purpose. Or maybe make one or two of the multiple props collective... I'd assume they already have a working solution to avoid falling out of the sky, but then, it isn't mentioned in the copy. EDIT: There are quadcopters that can fly inverted, but I think they use powered servos with a reverse polarity. The value of autorotation is that it works when your main power source dies. So it all depends on the context and parameters (is there a backup battery of lower capacity available for emergency situations, say).
- ChuckMcM 12y agoI think this is pretty cool, but several questions spring to mind which I haven't found good answers for. The first is what sort of density can you get out of these? How many per acre/hectare? 1? 3? California has a number of wind installations and some of them are pretty dense [1]. The second is what sort of radar signature does this thing have? Probably not a navigation hazard but should be interesting on the weather doppler display. [1] http://www.jamielaval.com/Images2011/Journal/Tehachapi_windmills1.jpg http://www.jamielaval.com/Images2011/Journal/Tehachapi_windm...
- correlator 12y agoThe density was the first thing that came to my mind as well. I would not want to be on the team responsible for untangling those cables!
- damonpace 12y agoI would imagine if they were timed properly and coordinated using software they could be extremely dense.
- gamegoblin 12y agoSoftware can't entirely save you -- a structural failure could cause one kite to careen into another, taking down a lot more kites.
- Already__Taken 12y agoIt only has to save you enough to make that a rare-ish problem.
- allworknoplay 12y agogiven the variable heights I'd imagine an enormous amount.
- Untit1ed 12y agoThey do mention density in terms of kw / sqm as being slightly higher than conventional turbines, but don't give a lot of details beyond that. I can only hope it's not based on parking them all right next to each other and hoping they don't get tangled up :p
- arh68 12y agoDoes this work in the rain? I'm watching the TED talk now but I can't tell.
- ryen 12y agoThe specifics on how it works is in a sublink here: http://www.google.com/makani/technology/ http://www.google.com/makani/technology/
- fillskills 12y agoHow does this affect birds? How does it affect planes flying in that airspace?
- glibgil 12y agoIf it hits a bird, the bird will die. If it hits a plane, the plane will crash. Birds and planes should stay away.
- jonalmeida 12y agoCommercial planes don't fly below 250m at all, expect when taking off and landing at airfields. The structure of these "turbines" are that of planes which look like large birds to real birds, so they would stay away from the area with them. I'd assume that these would be installed in large open fields, so it shouldn't affect migration patterns or bird localities. I have seen eagles attack quadcopters thinking they were birds, but those are usually of similar sizes to what eagles' prey would look like, but obviously this shouldn't be a problem as well.
- tarequeh 12y agoFor a second a tried to imagine a satellite view of the earth with many of these flying. It'd look mesmerizing. I really applaud Google for funding research on affordable renewable energy. It's unfortunate that the scrolling doesn't work, but hey the prototype does!
- teddyknox 12y agoYou mean an airplane view? From the top down I imagine they wouldn't look very interesting.
- kleer001 12y agoWhat a horribly designed page. It could have fit all on one page.
- deleted 12y ago[deleted]
- frozenport 12y agoCrazy ideas should come with graphs. Not clear how much it costs, how much energy it will generate, and how it will recoup the cost.
- humanrobot 12y agocheck this http://www.google.com/makani/solution/ http://www.google.com/makani/solution/
- lemoncucumber 12y agoThe New Yorker did a great article about this tech (and the guy behind it) a couple years ago: http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/05/20/inherit-the-wind http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/05/20/inherit-the-win...
- sterlingross 12y agoThank you for the link, I was wanting to read that article but had forgotten about it. I met Don on a return flight from SJC to OGG. He seemed very kind and passionate about the Makani Power project at the time. The idea, as he explained it, originated from plans to build a self powered kite boat [1] that could circumnavigate the world. The "self powered" part interested his friends at Google and they started funding him. He confessed that he had accidentally become an engineer in the process, but his real passion was wind surfing and kite surfing and he was eager to get back to that. [1] http://project.kiteboat.com/ http://project.kiteboat.com/
- Jedd 12y agoThis looks a lot like a project being developed by Bryan Roberts (IIRC) in Australia, that New Scientist covered about fifteen years ago. He was using a gyrocopter-like structure (he called it a gyromill) to keep the devices up in the air, and with an intent to be much higher up than these things seem to be aimed at, but the principle remains the same (tethered, high enough to gain some consistency of wind). Can't find the NS link, but this provides some more info: http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/enviro/EnviroRepublish_182107.htm http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/enviro/EnviroRepublish_18... [Edit: add url, fix historical reference.]
- modeless 12y agoI'm worried about the noise. The blades spin many times faster than a regular windmill. I imagine it will sound similar to a small plane flying very close to the ground. Of course a plane flies over once and it's gone; this thing will produce a constant droning noise that fluctuates in pitch and volume every few seconds as the kite goes up and down. If you put them far offshore this wouldn't be a problem, but I wouldn't want one of these near my house.
- ryen 12y agoThe majority of noise you hear from a small prop plane flying above is from the engine. Also, the advanced height they're trying to achieve limits the amount of noise relative to what you would hear from a small drone overhead.
- elihu 12y agoI'm sceptical that that's true. We can put mufflers on gas engines to make them quieter. The prop, though, is moving a lot of air, and there's no way to get around that and have it still work.
- mikeyouse 12y agoI found an old JPL document detailing "Aerodynamic Noise from Rotors, Propellers, and Lift Fans" (http://cafefoundation.org/v2/pdf_tech/Noise.Technologies/NASA.1970.Prop.Noise.Review.pdf http://cafefoundation.org/v2/pdf_tech/Noise.Technologies/NAS...) which has some interesting details. A 300hp hub, spinning a 9ft diameter propeller at 1584 RPM should be roughly 72dB as measured from 1,000 feet. From a mile away, it will be more like 57dB or about TV volume from 6 feet away. -- Then again, these are spinning far faster than you'd expect from a wind turbine.
- camgunz 12y agoI think it's fucked up that "modern", "mobile-first" web design essentially boils down to powerpoint in a browser. That said, this is a cool idea.
- duderific 12y agoIt seems like if there were a "farm" of these kites, they would have to be very widely spaced out, or else they would crash into each other or get their tethers tangled up.
- tjradcliffe 12y agoAutomated control would handle this easily.
- jedisct1 12y agoReminds me of Kitepower: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjcJljXGW9I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjcJljXGW9I
- calt 12y agoI'm happy to see experimentation in new wind technologies, but it makes me sad to see things like this grabbing headlines when floating offshore is such a strong contender that just needs some more funding for the engineering effort (mostly because it's pushing the currently tested limits of carbon composites). http://bangordailynews.com/2014/05/07/news/bangor/umaine-gets-small-grant-for-offshore-wind-project-but-far-less-than-hoped-for/ http://bangordailynews.com/2014/05/07/news/bangor/umaine-get...
- krschultz 12y agoI don't think they mutually exclusive, but great link.
- imaginenore 12y ago600 kW from one kite is insanely impressive. It looks pretty small. That can easily power a few hundreds of homes.
- maxxxxx 12y agoThat number sounds really high to me too. 2000 of them of and you have a nuclear power plant.
- manachar 12y agoInteresting tech. I wonder if these have lower impacts on avian and bat populations. Also, it's interesting that tech companies love using Hawaiian words for things (Wiki, akamai).
- tjradcliffe 12y agoThe research I've seen says bats are mostly affected by low frequency pressure waves from conventional turbines, so these won't have that problem. They may also spin fast enough to make enough noise to scare birds away, but they are also moving pretty fast, so could pose a problem for birds at the low end of their loop, which is somewhat under 150 m. Putting them on a migration route would be a very bad thing for birds.
- igonvalue 12y ago> The energy kite simulates the tip of a wind turbine blade, which is the part of a turbine that makes most of the energy. The kite is launched from the ground station by the rotors, which act like propellers on a helicopter. Once in the air, the kite generates power by flying in large circles where the wind is strong and consistent. Air moving across rotors mounted on the kite forces them to rotate, driving a generator to produce electricity, which travels down the tether to the grid. Are the rotors that launch the kite the same as the ones that generate the electricity?
- jccooper 12y agoYes. The generators turn into motors if you turn the electricity around.
- lutorm 12y agoThey're supposed to be putting up a test installation on the Big Island of Hawaii sometime this year: http://www.bizjournals.com/pacific/blog/morning_call/2014/10/google-owned-makani-to-test-wind-technology-on.html http://www.bizjournals.com/pacific/blog/morning_call/2014/10...
- kevinbluer 12y agoDid anyone else read this as Google Mankini? http://www.amazon.com/Smiffys-Mens-Borat-Mankini-Dress/dp/B005HMHNX8 http://www.amazon.com/Smiffys-Mens-Borat-Mankini-Dress/dp/B0...
- a8da6b0c91d 12y agoOff topic but I have been toying with building a small catamaran powered by a Darrieus turbine or a kite setup such as depicted. The point is wind powered navigation of busy rivers and the east coast intracostal waterway. Obviously this makes zero sense on the open sea or in wide bays, where long tacks are easy and more efficient. Tacking on the intracoastal is practically infeasible in today's world, yet there is loads of wind. Can anyone refer me to to prior art on this?
- Gravityloss 12y agohttp://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachments/projects-proposals/17617d1197420937-another-idea-upwind-sailing-real.jpg http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachments/projects-propos...
- jcchin41 12y agohttp://kitepowercoop.org/ http://kitepowercoop.org/ Looks like there is an open-source community around energy kites. They're largely focused soft form kites, rather than fast moving rigid wings. And another rigid wing competitor: http://www.ampyxpower.com/ http://www.ampyxpower.com/
- malandrew 12y agoDirect link to video for those frustrated by the scrolling: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSYMHzgLLn8&t=20 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSYMHzgLLn8&t=20
- deleted 12y ago[deleted]
- PakG1 12y agoMy friend worked for Makani for quite some time. I remember at the time, they were in financial difficulty and, in his words, laid off all the people who viewed it only as a science project in order to get lean. Not enough people were focused on what would be necessary to bring the tech to market. He ended up finally leaving after some time, but I think before Google took them. A Google X type of environment probably is perfect for people who like working on science projects and can't be hindered by financial constraints that would hold back innovation at this scale. Would be interesting if Google ends up being able to turn this into something used by many parties worldwide.
- ovi256 12y agoI guess they did very well to lay off the people who thought of it as a science project, because it's obviously an engineering project! All the science needed to make it work already exists, it's just a question of hammering it together. Disclaimer: engineer here.
- INTPenis 12y agoCall me skeptical. I live in the land of many wind turbines, the Øresund region of southern sweden, and I know that they can break down or even catch fire from time to time. Who is going to service this aeroplane when it breaks down? It just seems to me that this idea has too many possible problems that could go horribly wrong from trying to fly a plane around on a teather in strong winds. To be honest, before I saw the G+ page and read the top HN comments, my first thought was that april 1st is right around the corner. ;)
- tim333 12y agoLooks kind of cool. I just looked up the cost of regular turbines are "about $1.3 million to $2.2 million per MW of nameplate capacity installed." So I guess for a 600kw kite to be economic you'd have to build them for about $1 - 3m given the kite produces more constant power. Dunno what happens when the wind drops and all your kites have to land.
- digitalzombie 12y agoI want Kinetic Energy Puppies.
- techdrone 12y agolooks like a fun project, but unfortunately wind will unlikely to make the impact needed on the shift from fossil to renewables.
- dvh 12y agoWhat happen when I buy one of those, put them in the air and then Google cancel it, will it crash on the ground?
- richardw 12y agoVery similar to underwater kites: http://minesto.com/deep-green/ http://minesto.com/deep-green/
- hrehhf 12y agoIt is strange that their map of the USA left off the entire state Alaska, where electricity is among the most expensive in the country: http://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.cfm?t=epmt_5_6_a http://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.cfm... Makani seems ideal for their needs: "Alaska’s electricity infrastructure differs from that of the lower 48 states in that most consumers are not linked to large interconnected grids through transmission and distribution lines; rural communities in Alaska rely primarily on diesel electric generators for power. " -- http://www.eia.gov/state/?sid=AK http://www.eia.gov/state/?sid=AK
- switchfakie 12y agoA german startup for energy kites based in berlin with a working prototype was even first. http://www.enerkite.de/ http://www.enerkite.de/ https://fundernation.eu/fundernation/projects/enerkite https://fundernation.eu/fundernation/projects/enerkite