6 ms·

More evidence of the US supporting torture in its backwards client regimes. This evidence has piled up for years and years, starting from well before the School

More evidence of the US supporting torture in its backwards client regimes. This evidence has piled up for years and years, starting from well before the School of the Americas. On the topic of schools and supporting torture in client regimes, remember that someone had to both negotiate with the UAE in order to convince them that it would be in their best interest to do as the US says on the topic of torturing foreigners, as well as teach UAE's security forces how to torture in the US-approved way. That way, when someone the US wants information from comes along, they can be tortured by the UAE so that US can keep its PR. Think about that for a minute. The US is teaching third parties how to torture effectively on its behalf because it wants the torturing done to the proper standard and because it is afraid of the backlash that will occur when torture is exposed. From this thought, we can say that the US has extensive internal standards regarding what methods of torture are acceptable and useful for clients to know, which are likely influenced by how bad and how directly attributable these torture techniques will look when exposed. A speculation: the US still tortures people directly in addition to third party torture. They already have the secrecy, infrastructure, training, standards, incentive, and targets in hand.

happyscrappy 12y ago
> backwards client regimes They also have some modern client regimes, like Europe.
- rmxt 12y ago
  Is there any depth to your assertion? Or is it just a passive-aggressive swipe to denigrate Europe(ans) while derailing deeper discussion about critiques of the United States? I will give you credit for acknowledging the "backward"/"modern" difference. The most important difference is that in the European "client regimes" (to use your language), they at least purport to maintain a semblance of democracy and human rights standards for their constituents. In that respect, call the convergent evolution towards the American-style government policy, a "client" or "vassal" state type of relationship if you'd like, but at least it's one in which (at a minimum) a superficial level of fairness is maintained (i.e., in contrast to sharia law countries).
  - wflann 12y ago
    See this article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/the-hidden-history-of-the-cias-prison-in-poland/2014/01/23/b77f6ea2-7c6f-11e3-95c6-0a7aa80874bc_story.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/the-hi...
    - rmxt 12y ago
      Poland jumped to my mind as well, but at least there is some public pushback on the issue within European states and in the European Union. [1] The United States government itself, and the Middle Eastern countries that are on their "friends list" have been quiet about it, as far as I've seen. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition#European_Parliament.27s_investigation_and_report https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition#Europe...
Zikes 12y ago
> A speculation: the US still tortures people directly in addition to third party torture. Gitmo?
- olefoo 12y ago
  How about Chicago? [1] There is always the impulse to torture suspects for any law enforcement agency. We need to act as citizens to ensure that torture and the outsourcing of torture are treated as the grand criminal matters that they are. Anyone in the chain of command who participates in or tolerates torture needs to face charges. 1. http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/feb/24/chicago-police-detain-americans-black-site http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/feb/24/chicago-polic...
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
- gnud 12y ago
  The simple reason it's _always_ wrong, is that you'll _always_ start sliding down the slippery slope. How many of those terrorist attacks would even be planned if the U.S. and its allies didn't use torture?
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
- zo1 12y ago
  If you ask me, I'd go the simplistic route of "it's not an ethical gray area, torture is never okay." I know, a little bit idealistic and uncompromising.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
- rosser 12y ago
  Two things: 1. Torture isn't a gray area. It's unethical and unreliable. Consistently. It turns out, people will tell you whatever they think will make you stop hurting them, if you hurt them badly enough. I know, right?! 2. Many of those "plots" are so laughably unrelated to actual acts of terror it's a wonder that USGov hasn't edited the Wiki page to remove them. (The NYPD seems to be fond of that approach...)
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - analyst74 12y ago
    Torture works. In many circumstances the unreliable information provided by torture is the best you can get. It is, of course, very unethical to today's standards, especially when done to innocent citizens. But the reason it is increasingly becoming unethical today, is because we are getting better at acquiring information through other means, like better monitoring technology and wiretapping laws. Now THAT, is some food for thought.
pdkl95 12y ago
> The US is teaching third parties how to torture effectively ... to the proper standard ... because it is afraid of the backlash ... I call this "mens rea". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea

happyscrappy 12y ago

> backwards client regimes They also have some modern client regimes, like Europe.

rmxt 12y ago
Is there any depth to your assertion? Or is it just a passive-aggressive swipe to denigrate Europe(ans) while derailing deeper discussion about critiques of the United States? I will give you credit for acknowledging the "backward"/"modern" difference. The most important difference is that in the European "client regimes" (to use your language), they at least purport to maintain a semblance of democracy and human rights standards for their constituents. In that respect, call the convergent evolution towards the American-style government policy, a "client" or "vassal" state type of relationship if you'd like, but at least it's one in which (at a minimum) a superficial level of fairness is maintained (i.e., in contrast to sharia law countries).
- wflann 12y ago
  See this article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/the-hidden-history-of-the-cias-prison-in-poland/2014/01/23/b77f6ea2-7c6f-11e3-95c6-0a7aa80874bc_story.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/the-hi...
  - rmxt 12y ago
    Poland jumped to my mind as well, but at least there is some public pushback on the issue within European states and in the European Union. [1] The United States government itself, and the Middle Eastern countries that are on their "friends list" have been quiet about it, as far as I've seen. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition#European_Parliament.27s_investigation_and_report https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition#Europe...

Zikes 12y ago

> A speculation: the US still tortures people directly in addition to third party torture. Gitmo?

olefoo 12y ago
How about Chicago? [1] There is always the impulse to torture suspects for any law enforcement agency. We need to act as citizens to ensure that torture and the outsourcing of torture are treated as the grand criminal matters that they are. Anyone in the chain of command who participates in or tolerates torture needs to face charges. 1. http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/feb/24/chicago-police-detain-americans-black-site http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/feb/24/chicago-polic...

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

gnud 12y ago
The simple reason it's _always_ wrong, is that you'll _always_ start sliding down the slippery slope. How many of those terrorist attacks would even be planned if the U.S. and its allies didn't use torture?
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
zo1 12y ago
If you ask me, I'd go the simplistic route of "it's not an ethical gray area, torture is never okay." I know, a little bit idealistic and uncompromising.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
rosser 12y ago
Two things: 1. Torture isn't a gray area. It's unethical and unreliable. Consistently. It turns out, people will tell you whatever they think will make you stop hurting them, if you hurt them badly enough. I know, right?! 2. Many of those "plots" are so laughably unrelated to actual acts of terror it's a wonder that USGov hasn't edited the Wiki page to remove them. (The NYPD seems to be fond of that approach...)
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- analyst74 12y ago
  Torture works. In many circumstances the unreliable information provided by torture is the best you can get. It is, of course, very unethical to today's standards, especially when done to innocent citizens. But the reason it is increasingly becoming unethical today, is because we are getting better at acquiring information through other means, like better monitoring technology and wiretapping laws. Now THAT, is some food for thought.

pdkl95 12y ago

> The US is teaching third parties how to torture effectively ... to the proper standard ... because it is afraid of the backlash ... I call this "mens rea". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea