5 ms·

I'm surprised though that the ring is such a big sensation. Normans (direct descendants of the Vikings) conquered Sicily from the Muslims back in the 11th centu

I'm surprised though that the ring is such a big sensation. Normans (direct descendants of the Vikings) conquered Sicily from the Muslims back in the 11th century. Previous to that Vikings were hired as mercenaries around the whole Mediterranean basin and even served as an elite unit in Byzantine emperor's employ (Varangian guard) at the time of continuous clashes between the crumbling empire and Arabic and then various Turkish invaders.

olavk 12y ago
I wouldn't call it a sensation since it doesn't rewrite history, but the article does not call it that either. It is just an unique archaeological find, which is also something.
- huxley 12y ago
  More amazing to me is the 6th century bronze Buddha statue found in a pre-Viking era trading centre in Helgö, Sweden: http://irisharchaeology.ie/2013/12/the-helgo-treasure-a-viking-age-buddha/ http://irisharchaeology.ie/2013/12/the-helgo-treasure-a-viki...
  - pjungwir 12y ago
    Wow, that is amazing. There is also the very old saint's life Barlaam and Josaphat that is basically a Christianized Buddha story. I think we underestimate how much contact there was between East and West long ago. I recall hearing about communities found in Afghanistan still speaking Greek, probably from Alexander the Great. And before that, Herodotus has many stories of intercourse between Greeks and Persians.
    - huxley 12y ago
      Yeah, I was blown away by Barlaam and Josaphat. If you're interested in the intersections between Greece and Asia, you should find these articles pretty amazing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Bactrian_Kingdom http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Bactrian_Kingdom http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhist_art http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhist_art https://www.mtholyoke.edu/~bhhankes/bamiyanhistory.html https://www.mtholyoke.edu/~bhhankes/bamiyanhistory.html
    - nl 12y ago
      I think we underestimate how much contact there was between East and West long ago. One contributing factor to this was that the Ottomans closed the silk road to Europeans. "Contact" between Europe and Asia was already a fairly tenuous link, where very few people actually made the journey or even talked to people who had (ignoring for the moment wars). The closing of the silk road made it seem even more remote. This led to European nations seeking sea-routes to Asia, which ironically led to greater knowledge of the East (as people in Western Europe started hearing stories first hand, instead of third hand via traders who traded with caravan traders).
badloginagain 12y ago
I was more interested in the religious implications of the ring, wondering how much Islam had penetrated Slavic/Scandinavian cultures, and if individuals incorporated the Islamic God into their (personal) pantheons. Would make for some interesting historical fiction, but this find is at most a footnote in history.
- huxley 12y ago
  You might be interested in reading the travel accounts of Ahmad Ibn Fadlan (full name Ahmad ibn Fadlān ibn al-Abbās ibn Rāšid ibn Hammād), an Abassid envoy who travelled all the way up to Russia in the early 10th century and apparently witnessed a Viking funeral: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmad_ibn_Fadlan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmad_ibn_Fadlan His account is collected with a few other Arab travelogues in the North in "Ibn Fadlan and the Land of Darkness: Arab Travellers in the Far North" Someone created a reconstructed map of the possible route: http://www.arcgis.com/home/webmap/viewer.html?webmap=e83699d539a048e4a78be4425896b492 http://www.arcgis.com/home/webmap/viewer.html?webmap=e83699d...
  - nl 12y ago
    There's a (fictional) film version of this that combines his story with the Beowulf saga[1]. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_13th_Warrior http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_13th_Warrior
- pbhjpbhj 12y ago
  Well strictly speaking the ring appears to say some form of "god" (to god, for god, god willing) in a Kufic script of Arabic. >"The significance of this ring has never been based on its purported material composition, but on its connection to the Islamic world. This connection is now not only confirmed, but actually strengthened due to the mint condition of the ring's metal body, as will be discussed below." // (from the full source of the OP, "Analysis and interpretation of a unique Arabic finger ring from the Viking Age town of Birka, Sweden" http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/sca.21189/full http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/sca.21189/full) What I don't really see about this is the claim to the 'closeness' of the woman buried and the area where the glass bead was produced. They say themselves that rings were made locally from silver coins from Afghanistan and it's said that the glass bead showed additional signs of wear that the ring didn't have. Based on that it seems their conclusion should be the ring was made locally from "Caliphate" silver, eg coin, and the glass was acquired separately? That conclusion is far less ground-breaking of course. This: >"That said, the elongated middle section and the extra stroke representing a third “L” are problematic. Presently, we interpret the inscription as ILLLH, to be read il-la-lah, i.e. “For/to (the approval) of the God”. Several regional variations of Arabic spelling and writing are however known to exist, and it is furthermore possible that the inscription was written – or copied – by someone with an incomplete understanding of Arabic writing." // I wondered if they'd followed up on the idea that it was a signet ring and considered the mirrored version and attempted a translation based on that? It seems very strange that a high value item spelling the most recognisable Arabic word (Allah) would possibly have a spelling mistake. Perhaps it was inscribed locally as a copy; maybe false provenance by a resourceful North European who could sell exotic Arabic pieces for a higher price? Not being even a modern Arabic reader I can't challenge this but normally there's a loop at the end of "allah" which is part of the letter h and makes reading the arabic left-to-right appear not dissimilar to the latin word rendering of the same word "all_h" (see for example p.15, fig.20b at https://www.academia.edu/7852040/Chapter_One_What_is_SK_Figures https://www.academia.edu/7852040/Chapter_One_What_is_SK_Figu...). Could it not just be a name that bears close resemblance to Allah; "Allll" it looks like to me [a complete novice at reading any form of Arabic nevermind kufic scripts!]. If anyone's interested I found this similar "lapidary kufic" inscription on a bronze coin online, http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php?topic=13497.0 http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php?topic=13497.0 - I was following an idea that the inscription might have been copied from a coin. Also this, http://www.sakkal.com/instrctn/sq_kufi_alphabet.html http://www.sakkal.com/instrctn/sq_kufi_alphabet.html, reference for closely related "square [lapidary/monumental] kufic" goes to show how difficult to read it is! Aside, the image of the ring shows an inscription on the back but it doesn't appear to be mentioned or clearly shown in the images. Isn't that a bit strange.
bootload 12y ago
"Varangian guard" Are impressive, a local re-enactment. Close order combat with sword and shield ~ https://www.flickr.com/photos/bootload/sets/72157627668206954 https://www.flickr.com/photos/bootload/sets/7215762766820695... and chain ~ https://www.flickr.com/photos/bootload/6146924256/in/set-72157627668206954 https://www.flickr.com/photos/bootload/6146924256/in/set-721... will withstand all blows except stiletto attack.
davidw 12y ago
Yeah, I was going to point that out too. Here's more information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_conquest_of_southern_Italy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_conquest_of_southern_Ita... At one point in my life here in Italy, I had a blonde housemate from Sicily.

olavk 12y ago

I wouldn't call it a sensation since it doesn't rewrite history, but the article does not call it that either. It is just an unique archaeological find, which is also something.

huxley 12y ago
More amazing to me is the 6th century bronze Buddha statue found in a pre-Viking era trading centre in Helgö, Sweden: http://irisharchaeology.ie/2013/12/the-helgo-treasure-a-viking-age-buddha/ http://irisharchaeology.ie/2013/12/the-helgo-treasure-a-viki...
- pjungwir 12y ago
  Wow, that is amazing. There is also the very old saint's life Barlaam and Josaphat that is basically a Christianized Buddha story. I think we underestimate how much contact there was between East and West long ago. I recall hearing about communities found in Afghanistan still speaking Greek, probably from Alexander the Great. And before that, Herodotus has many stories of intercourse between Greeks and Persians.
  - huxley 12y ago
    Yeah, I was blown away by Barlaam and Josaphat. If you're interested in the intersections between Greece and Asia, you should find these articles pretty amazing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Bactrian_Kingdom http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Bactrian_Kingdom http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhist_art http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhist_art https://www.mtholyoke.edu/~bhhankes/bamiyanhistory.html https://www.mtholyoke.edu/~bhhankes/bamiyanhistory.html
  - nl 12y ago
    I think we underestimate how much contact there was between East and West long ago. One contributing factor to this was that the Ottomans closed the silk road to Europeans. "Contact" between Europe and Asia was already a fairly tenuous link, where very few people actually made the journey or even talked to people who had (ignoring for the moment wars). The closing of the silk road made it seem even more remote. This led to European nations seeking sea-routes to Asia, which ironically led to greater knowledge of the East (as people in Western Europe started hearing stories first hand, instead of third hand via traders who traded with caravan traders).

badloginagain 12y ago

I was more interested in the religious implications of the ring, wondering how much Islam had penetrated Slavic/Scandinavian cultures, and if individuals incorporated the Islamic God into their (personal) pantheons. Would make for some interesting historical fiction, but this find is at most a footnote in history.

huxley 12y ago
You might be interested in reading the travel accounts of Ahmad Ibn Fadlan (full name Ahmad ibn Fadlān ibn al-Abbās ibn Rāšid ibn Hammād), an Abassid envoy who travelled all the way up to Russia in the early 10th century and apparently witnessed a Viking funeral: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmad_ibn_Fadlan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmad_ibn_Fadlan His account is collected with a few other Arab travelogues in the North in "Ibn Fadlan and the Land of Darkness: Arab Travellers in the Far North" Someone created a reconstructed map of the possible route: http://www.arcgis.com/home/webmap/viewer.html?webmap=e83699d539a048e4a78be4425896b492 http://www.arcgis.com/home/webmap/viewer.html?webmap=e83699d...
- nl 12y ago
  There's a (fictional) film version of this that combines his story with the Beowulf saga[1]. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_13th_Warrior http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_13th_Warrior
pbhjpbhj 12y ago
Well strictly speaking the ring appears to say some form of "god" (to god, for god, god willing) in a Kufic script of Arabic. >"The significance of this ring has never been based on its purported material composition, but on its connection to the Islamic world. This connection is now not only confirmed, but actually strengthened due to the mint condition of the ring's metal body, as will be discussed below." // (from the full source of the OP, "Analysis and interpretation of a unique Arabic finger ring from the Viking Age town of Birka, Sweden" http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/sca.21189/full http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/sca.21189/full) What I don't really see about this is the claim to the 'closeness' of the woman buried and the area where the glass bead was produced. They say themselves that rings were made locally from silver coins from Afghanistan and it's said that the glass bead showed additional signs of wear that the ring didn't have. Based on that it seems their conclusion should be the ring was made locally from "Caliphate" silver, eg coin, and the glass was acquired separately? That conclusion is far less ground-breaking of course. This: >"That said, the elongated middle section and the extra stroke representing a third “L” are problematic. Presently, we interpret the inscription as ILLLH, to be read il-la-lah, i.e. “For/to (the approval) of the God”. Several regional variations of Arabic spelling and writing are however known to exist, and it is furthermore possible that the inscription was written – or copied – by someone with an incomplete understanding of Arabic writing." // I wondered if they'd followed up on the idea that it was a signet ring and considered the mirrored version and attempted a translation based on that? It seems very strange that a high value item spelling the most recognisable Arabic word (Allah) would possibly have a spelling mistake. Perhaps it was inscribed locally as a copy; maybe false provenance by a resourceful North European who could sell exotic Arabic pieces for a higher price? Not being even a modern Arabic reader I can't challenge this but normally there's a loop at the end of "allah" which is part of the letter h and makes reading the arabic left-to-right appear not dissimilar to the latin word rendering of the same word "all_h" (see for example p.15, fig.20b at https://www.academia.edu/7852040/Chapter_One_What_is_SK_Figures https://www.academia.edu/7852040/Chapter_One_What_is_SK_Figu...). Could it not just be a name that bears close resemblance to Allah; "Allll" it looks like to me [a complete novice at reading any form of Arabic nevermind kufic scripts!]. If anyone's interested I found this similar "lapidary kufic" inscription on a bronze coin online, http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php?topic=13497.0 http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php?topic=13497.0 - I was following an idea that the inscription might have been copied from a coin. Also this, http://www.sakkal.com/instrctn/sq_kufi_alphabet.html http://www.sakkal.com/instrctn/sq_kufi_alphabet.html, reference for closely related "square [lapidary/monumental] kufic" goes to show how difficult to read it is! Aside, the image of the ring shows an inscription on the back but it doesn't appear to be mentioned or clearly shown in the images. Isn't that a bit strange.

bootload 12y ago

"Varangian guard" Are impressive, a local re-enactment. Close order combat with sword and shield ~ https://www.flickr.com/photos/bootload/sets/72157627668206954 https://www.flickr.com/photos/bootload/sets/7215762766820695... and chain ~ https://www.flickr.com/photos/bootload/6146924256/in/set-72157627668206954 https://www.flickr.com/photos/bootload/6146924256/in/set-721... will withstand all blows except stiletto attack.

davidw 12y ago

Yeah, I was going to point that out too. Here's more information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_conquest_of_southern_Italy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_conquest_of_southern_Ita... At one point in my life here in Italy, I had a blonde housemate from Sicily.