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Ring brings Viking, Islamic civilizations closer together
- ZanyProgrammer 12y agoPeople traded in the Middle Ages? Not the biggest surprise. And ugh, its medieval, not ancient.
- olavk 12y agoIn Scandinavian historiographic tradition the Middle Ages is counted from the arrival of Christianity. Being the the 8th century, the find is from the Viking Age which is earlier.
- pbhjpbhj 12y agoFrom the abstract of the paper itself: >"an Arabic finger ring, which was found in a 9th c. woman's grave" // Which by your definition makes this mediaeval, as the GP states.
- olavk 12y agoNo, according to my definition 9th century is Viking Age. Scandinavian medieval period starts around year 1000 with christianization. Of course these labels are more or less arbitrary. In western Europe, the medieval times are sometimes counted from the fall of the western roman empire, and in that case 9th century is clearly medieval. I believe this is the tradition in England.
- pbhjpbhj 12y agoAh, OK, I stand corrected. Your error in saying '8th Century' confused suggested you were saying 'as it's 8th and not 9th century. In Scandinavia is it considered that the Viking age and mediaeval period don't overlap at all? Is there a specific event that marks the start of the mediaeval period - you mentioned Christianisation, perhaps the arrival of an evangelist (aka saint)? Of course the ring could be C8 - I wonder if they can date it with reference to the comparison of the composition with coins with a known date [though I guess that only gives an upper bound as the silver used in the coins could have been mined much earlier].
- huxley 12y agoI'm glad you're not dissing the Middle Ages, but the Ancients had some amazing trading networks too. The Britons in Cornwall, Devon and Brittany traded tin with the rest of Europe as far back as 2150BC. Pytheas of Massalia travelled all the way Britain about 325 BC and wrote about the thriving trade. Update: also Bronze Age trading between the Scandinavians and Egyptians: https://www.sciencenews.org/article/ancient-egyptian-blue-glass-beads-reached-scandinavia https://www.sciencenews.org/article/ancient-egyptian-blue-gl...
- adaml_623 12y ago"Scandinavians traded for fancy glass objects from Egypt and Mesopotamia as early as 3,400 years ago " And believe it or not they were doing the same thing 1100 years ago as well.
- tjradcliffe 12y agoThere are certain stories that remain perennially "surprising" no matter how often they are reported on. For example, "Engineers use nature as a source of inspiration" is still reported with breathless amazement despite every engineer for the past century (at least) being taught to look to nature for inspiration. Likewise, "Companies go green to save money" apparently astonishes people, decades after Interface became famous for doing precisely that. And "Old people had sex and porn" will never get old, any more than "Ancient peoples traded over the whole world". I'm not sure why these stories get the "that's surprising" reaction they do. Simple ignorance won't cut it, because they all get reported on so many times that eventually ignorance would decline, but it never does. It may have something to do with people's stereotypes overwhelming their knowledge, so even though they know engineers are sensitive and thoughtful people or that ancient peoples traded widely, that knowledge never "sticks" to the stereotype of engineers as uncultured and insensitive or ancient peoples as immobile and sedentary.
- olavk 12y ago> Simple ignorance won't cut it, because they all get reported on so many times that eventually ignorance would decline, but it never does. Well, new people get born all the time. And they are totally ignorant until they learn things.
- moey 12y agoSomething strange I find is researchers finding it as new evidence in a new encounter. In Islamic history this is a well known[1] connection. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmad_ibn_Fadlan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmad_ibn_Fadlan
- VonGuard 12y agoDamn, just as I was writing my comment. Clearly, this is the guy Crichton based http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eaters_of_the_Dead http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eaters_of_the_Dead on.
- pdabbadabba 12y agoThis ring is an amazing discovery, but you're right that contact between the Viking and Islamic cultures was already well known. The Icelandic sagas, for example, document the prestige won by Norse warriors who traveled to Constantinople and served in the Varangian Guard. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangian_Guard http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangian_Guard In fact, if you travel to Istanbul today, you can see Norse runes carved into the stones of the Hagia Sophia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runic_inscriptions_in_Hagia_Sophia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runic_inscriptions_in_Hagia_Sop...
- olavk 12y agoConstantinople was Christian at the time though. It was the capital of the roman empire, and remained Christian until til fifteenth century. But they did fight Arabs, so there was contact that way.
- olavk 12y agoTo be fair, the article does mention textual evidence of contact. It just say the ring is a rare archaeological evidence, which is correct.
- huxley 12y agoHardly, there is considerable evidence. From "Silver Economy In The Viking Age" edited by James Graham-Campbell, Gareth Williams: "It is also relevant to note that, both in Denmark itself, and more widely in Scandinavia, coin finds from the ninth and tenth centuries are dominated by Islamic dirhams and their Khazar, Bulghar and possibly Russian imitations, rather than by native Danish coins or their Frankish models (Hovén 1981; Kromann 1990; Jensen and Kromann 1998; Talvio 1998)."
- VonGuard 12y agoNot a big Crichton fan (most of his books spend the first half explaining how smart everyone is, and the second half is always those smart people making terribly stupid decisions) BUT, Crichton did write Eaters of the Dead, a book that is about exactly what this article talks about. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eaters_of_the_Dead http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eaters_of_the_Dead The story follows a Muslim who is sent as an emissary to the Vikings, and all the craziness that follows. It was also a movie: the 13th Warrior. It's a great story, not terribly well executed. The culture clash is the most interesting part, particularly when the Muslim lead is asked to "draw words," because his people have a system of writing, and the Vikings don't. I read somewhere the Crichton was basing this on some 10th century writings from some fellow who actually made this journey, but I can find no more references to it online....
- gadders 12y agoIt's based on the writings of Ibn Fahad, also posted by someone else below: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmad_ibn_Fadlan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmad_ibn_Fadlan And I love the Eaters of the Dead. It's not high art, but I found it an enjoyable read (once you realise that most of the footnotes are fake).
- VonGuard 12y agoYeah, Crichton can be fun as long as you take him as pulp, not as some genius expert on the topics he writes about.
- gadders 12y agoI think a lot of his books consist of finding something people are anxious about (Japanese Takeover of America - Rising Sun; Sexual Harassment of Men - Disclosure; Prey - Nanotechnology; Westworld - Robots) and then write a book about it. Plus, he also did ER as well which was pretty entertaining.
- benihana 12y agoI recently re-read Jurassic Park, and he showed a lot of knowledge about complex systems. He details the events leading up to the collapse of the park's control systems, and the local rationality of actions characters take make perfect sense. The chapters were structured to either end on a cliffhanger, or stop right before some kind of action was bout to be taken, so it has a pulp feel to it. But the underlying themes and attention to detail made me think he's quite intelligent and insightful, and capable of writing in a way that people want to read.
- AaronLasseigne 12y agoHmm, a ring binding two cultures together. Do words appear on it when placed in fire?
- joshuaheard 12y agoLife imitates art. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120657/ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120657/
- olavk 12y agoActually it is the other way around in this case.
- olavk 12y agoPerhaps even more amazing is the small Buddha statue found in a grave in Sweden from the 8th century.
- Thrymr 12y agoThere are lots of Islamic gold & silver coins found in Viking hoards: http://www.thenational.ae/news/world/middle-east/b-focus-b-vikings-came-in-search-of-dirhams#full http://www.thenational.ae/news/world/middle-east/b-focus-b-v...
- arjn 12y agoI recall reading about some Buddhist artefacts found at Viking sites. That could put their travels much older than whats mentioned here. http://irisharchaeology.ie/2013/12/the-helgo-treasure-a-viking-age-buddha/ http://irisharchaeology.ie/2013/12/the-helgo-treasure-a-viki... The Vikings sure travelled far and wide.
- olavk 12y agoNot necessarily, artifacts could have traveled through multiple transactions along a trade route without any single person traveling all the way. So the Buddha does not necessarily mean that a viking traveled to Asia or vice versa. Although it does show that continuous interactions happened all the way, which is itself fascinating.
- protomyth 12y agoThat's the most probable explanation. The ancient trade routes were more A to B to C and not A going to C type affairs. The Americans has seen artifacts from the Arctic make it down to Central America, never mind the Pacific islanders.
- fishnchips 12y agoThey travelled far and wide indeed but it is also quite possible that Buddhist artifacts got in their possession via much earlier Sino-Roman trade exchange and then just happened to be in one of the cloisters which Vikings so loved to plunder.
- fishnchips 12y agoI'm surprised though that the ring is such a big sensation. Normans (direct descendants of the Vikings) conquered Sicily from the Muslims back in the 11th century. Previous to that Vikings were hired as mercenaries around the whole Mediterranean basin and even served as an elite unit in Byzantine emperor's employ (Varangian guard) at the time of continuous clashes between the crumbling empire and Arabic and then various Turkish invaders.
- olavk 12y agoI wouldn't call it a sensation since it doesn't rewrite history, but the article does not call it that either. It is just an unique archaeological find, which is also something.
- huxley 12y agoMore amazing to me is the 6th century bronze Buddha statue found in a pre-Viking era trading centre in Helgö, Sweden: http://irisharchaeology.ie/2013/12/the-helgo-treasure-a-viking-age-buddha/ http://irisharchaeology.ie/2013/12/the-helgo-treasure-a-viki...
- pjungwir 12y agoWow, that is amazing. There is also the very old saint's life Barlaam and Josaphat that is basically a Christianized Buddha story. I think we underestimate how much contact there was between East and West long ago. I recall hearing about communities found in Afghanistan still speaking Greek, probably from Alexander the Great. And before that, Herodotus has many stories of intercourse between Greeks and Persians.
- huxley 12y agoYeah, I was blown away by Barlaam and Josaphat. If you're interested in the intersections between Greece and Asia, you should find these articles pretty amazing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Bactrian_Kingdom http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Bactrian_Kingdom http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhist_art http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhist_art https://www.mtholyoke.edu/~bhhankes/bamiyanhistory.html https://www.mtholyoke.edu/~bhhankes/bamiyanhistory.html
- trhway 12y agoBeside Vikings traveling down Atlantic Ocean into Mediterranean, there were another active, eastern, routes. Even Greek and Romans had amber which was coming from the south of Baltic Sea. Several centuries later Vikings actively traveled down the rivers through territories of modern Poland, Moldova, Ukraine and Russia (where Vikings founded the Kievana Rus - the Russia 1.0 - state as a result (with Russian tzars and nobles proudly tracing their genealogy back to those Vikings - tzars until 16th century and the nobles until they were basically exterminated about 100 years ago as result of Revolution)). From Kievana Rus Vikings also raided South of Caspian Sea (Iran) through Volga river.
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- vasilipupkin 12y agokulaks were not aristocracy, but rich peasants. It's funny you speak with such authority, while yourself committing simple errors.
- trhway 12y ago>viking origin of Kievan Rus is disputed there are some theories that there was some state there before Kievan Rus state founded by Vikings. That pre-Viking state(s) has pretty much no meaningful traces, it was more like glorified village-level tribes of Slavs running in the forest. Only with Vikings there appeared the state which pushed (and finally destroyed) Khazar khaganate (a huge empire in itself) and performed aggressive southward raids, like those on Constantinopole and Iran. >not all the aristocracy (kulaks) kulaks, as were already said by the other commenter, have absolutely nothing to do with aristocracy, not even in the same hemisphere. I can only wonder how much do you know about Russian history ...
- BurningFrog 12y agoThe sample size in underwhelming. One single ring can have travelled that distance in any number of ways.
- huxley 12y agoHere is something to increase your sample size: https://www.academia.edu/1722281/Islamic_Coin_Hoards_and_the_Trade_Routes_How_Dirham_Reached_the_North https://www.academia.edu/1722281/Islamic_Coin_Hoards_and_the...
- pbhjpbhj 12y agoBut that doesn't - the authors in the paper are explicitly claiming that this ring shows direct communication between the Caliphate and Swedish vikings, that the woman recently acquired the ring directly based on the wear of the ring and it's form. The GP is right to question the sample size IMO. Your citation moves the opposite direction and reinforces the GP's statement that the items can travel far in myriad ways.
- huxley 12y agoNot at all, the parent and the article claim it was a unique item, it isn't. There was a predominance of silver Islamic dirham over any other currency including local varieties, this is strong evidence of direct trade with Islamic countries (as cited in another of my comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9214849 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9214849 )
- pbhjpbhj 12y agoI think we're at cross-purposes to some extent. The paper isn't claiming the article is unique [in being Afghan silver jewellery in Sweden] as it clearly mentions not only other silver coins but other rings (IIRC) having come to Sweden from "the Caliphate". The specific details of the physical appearance of the ring they are claiming indicate that this item has a unique story; I challenge that claim being entirely supported by the evidence they presented (see my other comments).
- huxley 12y agoIf you ever read the Prose Edda (the Atlakvida or Lay of Atli) or Nibelungenlied (Song of the Nibelungs) and find a mention of Atli or Etzel, that's actually (spoiler) Attila the Hun.
- fsloth 12y agoYeah, basically eurasian continent has been crisscrossed with traderoutes for thousands of years. From Scandinavia to Mediterranean, from China to Italy (romans were fond of chinese silk). I suppose the stereotype of the sedentary medieval peasant is so strong that notions of traderoutes spanning thousands of kilometers being ordinary is hard to grasp.