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Can a city really ban cars from its streets? (2014)
- polarix 12y agoIf this were actually doing as the title suggests, it would demolish the possibility for any personal DIY projects that require heavy equipment/materials. Indeed, bulk home goods and appliance sales companies should be up in arms. Luckily, they're just trying to make it possible to get around without cars, not illegal to use cars, which is likely to dramatically increase the possibility for lightweight cooperative social interactions.
- stuart78 12y agoI'm generally a fan of anything to remove cars from the city center, it is really an improvement and transitions us from the inefficiency of single-occupant transportation to group movements. As you point out, it also introduces logistical complexities for downtown residents, but when everybody is in the same situation it is perhaps easier to build comprehensive solutions.
- knorby 12y agoIt would be pretty nice if roads were such that things like deliveries, various public transit, and taxi/car sharing options were the only allowed options as far as cars go. If the roads become uncongested, and parking is no long a major use of cities, a lot of the existing uses for cars would disappear.
- _delirium 12y agoIn most areas, even pedestrianized streets allow delivery and residents' vehicles (sometimes also taxis), at certain times of the day at least. In some cases any vehicle is allowed as long as it watches for pedestrians, and travels at a speed safe for a mixed-use road (meaning 5-20 km/hr or so, depending on road size and congestion). Sometimes the arrangement is called a "living street" if that's the explicit design goal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_street https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_street In central Copenhagen a number of streets are like that, so you often see delivery vehicles slowly making their way through. But most cars that don't need to drive right into the city center will avoid it and take one of the more major roads that bypasses the city center. So it gets most of the cars out of the city center by just incentivizing them to take a faster route, and allows/requires the remaining ones to share the road on an equal basis with other users.
- jrs99 12y agoit is hard to imagine right now, but if you made cars completely illegal except for maybe emergency vehicles, i do believe that we would see a lot of creative solutions pop up for transporting bulk items or large items like furniture.
- TillE 12y agoIn Berlin (where not everybody owns a car), it's quite common to see people walking out of the hardware store with large planks of wood balanced over their shoulder, or sometimes in a bike trailer. People manage. And yes, obviously you still need to allow commercial delivery vehicles. There's really no alternative to that.
- bweitzman 12y agoA plank of wood or two is fine to carry, but what if you need to move something heavier like a refrigerator or a piece of furniture? It's ridiculous to think that people should have to carry that stuff by hand or on bicycles over distances of multiple miles. I think it's more feasible that we ban personal vehicles in cities while still allowing commercial and emergency vehicles. Even allowing these vehicles, we'd probably be able to reduce most roads to single lane one way streets.
- mlmonkey 12y ago> what if you need to move something heavier like a refrigerator or a piece of furniture? How did the refrigerator get into the store in the first place? It can get out the same way.
- revelation 12y agoClearly the sane solution is then for everyone to own a car. Because that's what people use cars for in the city, moving heavy stuff. This just sounds like concern-trolling.
- 6t6t6 12y agoI don't know how often you buy new refrigerators, but I would rather hire a delivery company every time I change my refrigerator if that means living in a clean city. On the other car, the ban for private cars usually has only effect during a period of the day. In Barcelona, at least, you can access most streets in the city center after 20:00.
- cbd1984 12y ago
- easytiger 12y ago> It is an ambitious idea, but city officials obviously feel that the personal motorcar does not fulfill a function that walking, biking and taking public transport cannot. Except fucking over the people who actually live there for the benefit of people who exist there transiently.
- jessaustin 12y ago'easytiger, when HN voters can't comprehend your writing, they downvote. While it's pretty clear to this somewhat-experienced reader of English-language online fora that "fucking over the people" is an action you ascribe to "the personal motorcar" rather than to "walking, biking and taking public transport", most respondents (thus, presumably, most voters) seem to have whooshed. Often we must be more verbose than we'd like, to communicate with those who are not in the habit of thinking while reading.
- jrs99 12y agoor you could just not mind the downvotes whether they are misunderstood, accidental, or random.
- darkstar999 12y agoWhat? The plan provides car-free routes between desitnations, how does that fuck anyone over?
- CalRobert 12y agoCan you explain? I live in the middle of a city and have no car, and would feel delighted, not fucked over, if cars were banned (or made to pay extremely steep usage fees) in the city center.
- baddox 12y ago> I live in the middle of a city and have no car, and would feel delighted, not fucked over, if cars were banned That doesn't seem to contradict the parent claim. You're saying you would be fine with banning something that you already don't use. A more relevant criticism would be if you did have a car in a city but still wouldn't mind cars being banned.
- peatmoss 12y agoWhen you total up the amount of land that we dedicate to cars, it's absolutely staggering. I read a stat a while back (can't find it right now), that something like 33% of the land area of Seattle is paved vehicle surface. I'm sure Seattle isn't more paved-over than most other cities. Then, when you realize how this staggering amount of land is used to separate living, working, and other activity space, you begin to feel that we're living in little islands surrounded by fast-moving rivers of lethal steel--lethal steel that results in toxic gas and water runoff that sickens the remaining population that isn't directly killed at a rate of tens-of-thousands per year. Gosh I hope we can figure this out in my lifetime.
- timjahn 12y agoSeriously! It's crazy. We live in such an auto centric society. I often think, why do we have the parking lot in shopping centers go all the way up to the front door (so you have to cross in the path of cars to enter the building)? Why don't the aisles go directly up to a big sidewalk/walking area in front of the building and that's it? You could have turnarounds every few for picking people up and something dedicated for emergency vehicles, but it's crazy that you have to cross in front of cars to enter the building, when there's 0 reason for those cars to drive right in front of the building!
- criley2 12y agoRegardless of design you must let emergency services access the building simply. No lane in front means Fire Trucks cannot stop in front of the massive building. I'd bet that front lanes are a building code / safety requirement.
- timjahn 12y agoI'm confident you could alter the current design to allow for extremely easy emergency service access to whatever part of the building needed, without having a giant ass road right in front of the building's front door.
- 12y ago
- darkstar999 12y agoClickbait to the max. "The city’s proposed Grünes Netz, or “Green Network” will create pedestrian and cycle paths to connect the city’s existing, substantial green spaces, and provide safe, car-free commuter routes for all residents." That is awesome, but it has nothing to do with banning vehicles.
- Filligree 12y agoOf course it does. Their intention is to convert the roads to those paths, which is something they can't possibly do while still supporting cars.
- darkstar999 12y agoSome roads, not all roads.
- CalRobert 12y agoWe didn't seem to have any trouble banishing people from the streets, so I hardly see the problem.
- VLM 12y agoAdding to that insight, I've gone hiking in the backcountry and I've seen the vibrant economy that results from an absence of mobility. (note, the above is extreme sarcasm)
- CalRobert 12y agoAdding to your insight, I've gone cycling on Lincoln and Wilshire (LA) and noted the lack of sheer terror at the thought of being killed at any possible second. (Also sarcasm. I broke ribs and had a driver who wasn't paying attention nearly flatten me at a red light)
- Dewie 12y agoYou're saying that there aren't any photo sharing startups in that backwards backcountry? Gosh darn.
- forgotpasswd3x 12y agoThose poor people!
- toolslive 12y agoyou can: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louvain-la-Neuve http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louvain-la-Neuve
- qt7 12y agoI am surprised nobody mentioned Venice, the largest car-free city in Europe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venice#In_the_historical_city https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venice#In_the_historical_city
- tigrella 12y agoPeople often forget to mention that Venice is car-less. It was one of the most relaxing and unique things about the city to me and not a single person mentioned it to me before I visited.
- matt4077 12y agoDriverless car could take us (almost) there. The coordination would allow traffic to flow incredibly smoothly, meaning a single one-way lane would be enough for most streets. They could more easily be shared, significantly lowering the need for parking. Even privately-owned cars could find their parking spot in i. e. an underground garage a few blocks away. Therefore: no need for parking spaces along the road. So you go from four lanes (2 driving, 2 parking) to just a single one. Sidewalk area increases from "two-lane width" to four and one lane is free for bicycles. It's going two be a revolution comparable to the invention of the internet, completely changing the quality of living in cities. And I get to see it, yeah. (Unless I end up being one of the world's last traffic fatalities)
- michaelbuckbee 12y agoI think the big change with driverless cars will be more on demand "right size" vehicles. A two seat smart car or one seat scooter type vehicle makes much more sense for commuting (typically) than a larger vehicle.
- jerf 12y agoI'd also suggest that efforts to try to "remove cars" prior to this technology are likely to amount to wastes of time. There's a lot of people who want this, which makes me somewhat suspicious that the studies are just finding what they want to find, and I rather suspect what Hamburg is going to discover is that they spend a lot of money making it so cars can't penetrate their "city", only to discover, oops, we can't actually remove them after all. You may dislike passenger cars (and I detect more than a faint whiff of Puritanism around that whole attitude, but that's a discussion for another day), but to entirely remove roads requires you to also solve the problem that motor vehicles are also the general circulatory system of a city. Now I think there are solutions to that problem... but they're all about 10 years away, minimum. We aren't there yet. And then, when we do get there, it won't need to be helped along by governments or modern-day Puritans... it'll just happen, faster and better than any premature attempt to make it happen before the tech is there ever could make it happen.
- lovemenot 12y ago
- wahsd 12y agoIt is amazing how ambitious and progressive Germany has been over the last two decades. It has always been very public transportation and self-locomotion focused, but this is quite impressive. They have curtailed nuclear energy; funded alternative energy production, research, and socialization; curtailed fossil fuel energy production and use; and now are moving towards the future of in this manner. In a way, they are also setting up the city, and maybe even the country, for autonomous vehicles. As I have been spending significant time on evaluating and analyzing the ramifications of autonomous vehicles, one thing has always been a bit of a challenge, how to make a transition. It's actually relatively easy in Germany and not that much of a leap since a lot of the foundational work had been done and the trajectory has been in a complementary direction. The real challenge will be how the USA makes the transition and doesn't simply sabotage itself out of spite for itself as it has an established reputation for now.
- erobbins 12y agoThere's nothing "progressive" about eliminating nuclear energy. Especially when the goal is more electrical transportation, not less.
- forgotpasswd3x 12y agoIf we can replace nuclear with other clean sources, such as solar and wind, until the time that we can safely dispose of nuclear waste, then yes, I'd say that's progressive.
- pnclpshr 12y agoWhat about thorium and the liftr reactor? it uses 90%+ of its fuel.
- deleted 12y ago[deleted]
- forgotpasswd3x 12y agoAre those actually in production yet? (Not trying to be snarky, just though those were still not really ready yet)
- holri 12y agoCars are a huge waste of space: https://geppbloggt.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/gehzeug1.jpg https://geppbloggt.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/gehzeug1.jpg https://diskussionsgruppespartacus.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/gehzeug.jpg https://diskussionsgruppespartacus.files.wordpress.com/2012/...
- nsxwolf 12y agoHuge use of space. Waste is an opinion.
- holri 12y agoYes that is my opinion. Allowing this waste is the opposite of a smart city. Using 1,5 t of mass to transport on average 100 kg is also a massive waste of energy.
- wutbrodo 12y agoWaste isn't an opinion, but rather a shorthand. Nobody (sane) is optimizing for "amount of cars on the road", but rather the benefits that cars bring (economic benefits due to streamlined transportation, etc). Generally when the term "waste" is used, the implication is: If option A can provide the benefits that option B can provide with less cost (in this case, space), then the incremental space being used is "wasted". It's a pretty fundamental use of the word.
- robertnealan 12y agoHamburg's mentioned plan reminds me of Daniel Burnham's 1905 plan for San Francsico, which would have created Panhandle-like parks running all over the city as well as diagonal avenues connecting major points of interest a-la Paris or Washington DC. The 1906 earthquake would've been the perfect opportunity to make it a reality, but unfortunately it never went anywhere. Map: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/fe/Burnham_San_Francisco.jpg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/fe/Burnham_San_Fr...
- 100k 12y agoSuch a huge lost opportunity. Many cities (Boston, Minneapolis) have very beautiful parks connected by chains of greenways. San Francisco could have built that, but didn't, and the lack of parks in the Eastern part of the city has a major negative effect on livability. Consider how nice South Park seems compared to the rest of SOMA.
- panic 12y agoThe goal of Hamburg’s project is to replace roads with a “gruenes netz” or a green network of interconnected open areas covering 40% of the city. According to the official website, parks, playgrounds, sports fields, allotments and cemeteries will be connected to form a network, which will allow people to navigate through the city without the use of cars. Why not just let people walk on the roads? Places like cemeteries and parks can be quite creepy to walk through, especially at night. Roads next to buildings with people in them are a more comfortable place to walk.
- balabaster 12y agoIs that just because that isn't the norm? If it was quite normal to walk through a cemetery or park at night, would it still be as creepy or is it just because of the proliferation of ghost and paranormal stories...?
- danielovich 12y agoZermatt, Switzerland. Car free city.
- valvar 12y agoFrom the photos and Wikipedia description, I'm in love. I want to move there.
- prawn 12y agoThere are a few villages in the Swiss alps with no cars or very limited use of cars. In one I visited, a hotel owner picked up guests and their luggage from the gondola using something like a golf cart. It worked well - low speed, smaller, less dangerous, quieter, etc.
- ghaff 12y agoA small car-less resort town that makes its money in no small part by providing tourists with a pleasant experience isn't really a model for cities. (And it's a pretty mobbed place at the popular times of year.) If you just want to move someplace quiet with Internet access there are lots of options.
- mpweiher 12y agoThis report is false. While Hamburg does plan for a "Green Network", there are no plans to ban cars or become "car free". Official statement from the city of Hamburg (in German): http://www.hamburg.de/pressearchiv-fhh/4257482/2014-01-24-bsu-keine-autofreie-stadt/ http://www.hamburg.de/pressearchiv-fhh/4257482/2014-01-24-bs...
- qntty 12y agoSomething I would love to see in NYC. Not as new of an idea as it might seem either, here's an old pamplet from the 60s about it http://www.bopsecrets.org/CF/goodman-cars.htm http://www.bopsecrets.org/CF/goodman-cars.htm
- yellowapple 12y agoProbably not if the headline has to be phrased as a question. :) Instead of (or perhaps in addition to) the greenspaces Hamburg is proposing, I have an even cooler idea: turn them into lazy rivers[0]. I'd be totally down with commutes involving calm, aimless drifting on flotation devices. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazy_river https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazy_river
- researcher88 12y agoA few years ago the EU proposed banning cars in all major European cities by 2050. And they wanted to restrict 50% of all trabel over 186 miles to trains. The plan was rejected by the UK and was criticized as draconian.
- wesleyd 12y agoIn California, zoning specifies minimum numbers of parking spaces. In UK/Ireland, zoning specifies maximum number of spaces.
- tdyen 12y agoIm surprised so few of the comments deal with disabled people or old people or people who cant walk much for injury or other reason. We cant make elitist cities. As I get older and my knees worse I really appreciate those who have to struggle. I love walking but its getting harder and harder. Saying that Id love to get rid of most cars or make em all electric. I train to work and its nicer than driving and Id bike if it was remotely safe but its psycho to bike in Australia.
- justincormack 12y agoElectric bikes seem popular with the elderly in Japan. The British prefer golf carts.
- f_allwein 12y agoThis is actually a misunderstanding - while Hamburg does plan to connect its green spaces, it does not plan to ban all cars. See their official statement (in German): http://www.hamburg.de/pressearchiv-fhh/4257482/2014-01-24-bsu-keine-autofreie-stadt/ http://www.hamburg.de/pressearchiv-fhh/4257482/2014-01-24-bs...
- jraedisch 12y agoAs a resident of Hamburg I can assure you it will not become a car-free city within the next 20 years. So far, we don't even have an "Umweltzone" (green or environmental friendly zone) where only cars maintaining certain filtering and mileage standards are allowed to drive.
- Graham24 12y agoBritish Thermal Units? Surely that's an obsolete unit.