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It's a spectrum. Don't be a clock-puncher and don't code to exhaustion to satisfy some sort of Asperger's or OCD issues. But however you slice it, you cannot g

It's a spectrum. Don't be a clock-puncher and don't code to exhaustion to satisfy some sort of Asperger's or OCD issues. But however you slice it, you cannot get past this one fact: it is an unnatural thing to sit in front of a glowing box for 4, 6, 8 hours a day pecking on little things with your fingers. This type of work has never existed before in the history of our species, and we were not made to do it. I think that's why we have to be very careful not just about the amount of time we code, but all the other things that go with it. The job needs to be important. The code can just be the code. So if you've spent all week punching the clock and suddenly wake up early Sunday morning with an idea about how to refactor that solution to work 100x better? Sounds good to me. If you code 90 hours a week and produce crap? Don't need you so much. The problem is that because it's so unnatural, all of us who do and manage this work confuse activity with progress. So the guy putting in the long hours pecking away looks like he's doing something of greater magnitude -- both to himself and others. But it doesn't work that way. Have passion for the job and for the problem you're solving. Programming is just one of many tools you need to accomplish that. Other tools are a good night's sleep, exercise, interacting socially with others, and so on. But if you don't have passion? I really don't want to work with you. Life's too short to spend 40 hours a week doing stuff you are apathetic about or with other people who are just going to drag you down.

Bahamut 12y ago
I've worked with some people with passion that caused issues - put two people with passion on the same team who have differing approaches? The recipe is ripe for a powder keg, and just needs a match lit to cause sparks to fly. Passion needs to give way to humanity.
- DanielBMarkham 12y ago
  Absolutely. But this is a solved problem. The creative community has been dealing with this issue for some time. There are a couple of slogans that come to mind. "Strong opinions, lightly held" and "intellectual humility" Passion does not equate to inflexibility.
  - blablabla123 12y ago
    Hey, this sounds interesting. Do you have some link/book recommendations for that? I remember that in the book "The hard thing about hard things" Ben Horowitz writes something like "You can't have 2 Michael Jordans on the same team".
peterchon 12y ago
Isn't that what the author was saying? just be focused in your work and be sure to give the company the value they deserve?
kenko 12y ago
What's wrong with being a clock puncher if you're doing your work?
- msandford 12y ago
  You won't work free overtime for a startup on the hope that your effort is rewarded by a large payday some day. There's nothing inherently wrong with it, but if you're trying to make something out of nothing (which is basically what startups are) it can be incredibly demoralizing to the people who are killing themselves to make it work somehow.
  - Silhouette 12y ago
    You've just described a failing startup. Killing yourself to make something work only gets good results by luck, and is a poor business strategy no matter how many shiny startup words anyone uses to dress it up. Likewise, working large amounts of free overtime on someone else's project is for chumps. If you don't have a meaningful financial stake in the business and still do this, someone is taking advantage of you, and following the money/equity will quickly tell you who it is. The only people who reliably win under those conditions are investors who are playing a statistical game and don't suffer any of the adverse personal consequences themselves. Edit: Obviously this doesn't apply to genuine volunteer work, such as contributing to your favourite OSS project or helping out your kid's school or a charity whose goals you want to support. But I don't think these are the kinds of work we are talking about here.
- tbrownaw 12y ago
  Clocks are expensive to replace? ;) . There's something called "work to rule" that unions apparently do sometimes instead of striking, where they follow all the rules exactly and this causes nothing to ever get done. I imagine being overly strict about your hours would have similar (but much smaller) effects. But, this should go both ways... if I'm going to stay 15 minutes late to finish something I'm in the middle of, I'll expect to be able to come in slightly late or leave a bit early on other days as long as the time more-or-less averages out.
eropple 12y ago
> Have passion for the job and for the problem you're solving. Programming is just one of many tools you need to accomplish that. This is exactly how I approach jobs, and it's made me happier. The most productive things I've ever done have not involved writing code, but rather improving process and helping other people do stuff better. "I solve problems. Computers are sometimes involved."
jmagoon 12y ago
So if someone doesn't have passion they can't be a good developer? And if your passions aren't things that people pay you for, you should, what? What other profession do people have this absurd obsession with passion? I've never, ever heard someone put down an excellent carpenter because they are passionate about sailing and not cabinets. You can do something well, seek improvement in your trade, and be pleasant to be around without having to be passionate about "leveraging branded content for marketers to drive ROI in key demographics using your analytics platform", or whatever job you happen to have at the time.
- mark-r 12y ago
  If someone is passionate about woodworking, they will make better cabinets than someone who is not. Same with coding. It's not about the hours, at all.
  - Iftheshoefits 12y ago
    If they're working alone or with somebody who shares their passion, sure. What about the, oh, 90% of the rest of the time?
  - Silhouette 12y ago
    If someone is skilled at woodworking, they will make better cabinets. No doubt there is a correlation between people who are passionate about something and people who are skilled at that thing. It seems likely to be a causal relationship, too. But it's the skill that makes the difference to the end result, not the passion. A diligent, conscientious woodworker might make just as good a cabinet as someone who loves to work wood. And a highly trained, professional woodworker will probably make much better cabinets than an enthusiastic amateur who is just having a go in their spare time.
  - taeric 12y ago
    This seems like a dubious claim, to be honest. Just because someone is passionate about something, I see no reason to believe they are good at it. I would love to be proven wrong, as I am passionate about many things. However, I find that those that are more practiced are usually far better than simply those that are passionate. There is plenty of survivor bias in this claim, though. So I try not to use it as an indicator of anything.
throwaway43 12y ago
Clock-punchers might be harming themselves but it wasn't clock punchers that gave us the iPhone.
- scott_karana 12y ago
  Passionate people might have lead the iPhone project, but there were assuredly many, many clock-punchers implementing the massive set of standard libraries available on the platform, writing specs and documentation, creating visual assets, sounds, etc.
- robmcm 12y ago
  I wonder how many left the project after launch because they were burnt out? I wonder if we would have a better product now if the core team has stuck around. Talent retainment isn't just about throwing more money at people, it's about a good working environment and often hours.
- hashberry 12y ago
  That is a horrible example: a physical product that was assembled by third-world clock-punchers in mind-numbing, depressing factories.
  - collyw 12y ago
    The impression I get will be they wont leave until the job is done to perfection. Not though the workers choice.
Silhouette 12y ago
But if you don't have passion? I really don't want to work with you. Life's too short to spend 40 hours a week doing stuff you are apathetic about or with other people who are just going to drag you down. I don't understand this mindset. If someone is competent at their job and, ideally, personable company, what's the problem working with them just because they aren't Passionate(TM) about whatever you're doing? Do you think the people who build the roads, or repair the power grid after a storm, or stack the shelves at your local store are passionate about their work? I think sometimes people who enjoy programming and also get paid very well to work as a programmer forget just how lucky they are. Most people don't love their jobs.
- cheatsheet 12y ago
  > I think sometimes people who enjoy programming and also get paid very well to work as a programmer forget just how lucky they are. Most people don't love their jobs. I forget this all the time, except when I'm programming. I really do love to code, but when I'm away from the computer and I don't feel like coding, I'm actually typically really depressed. At some points in my life, I was lucky to be able to say that I was still alive. Just because someone can get super excited about math and computers doesn't mean that their life is perfect and full of luck either.
- s73v3r 12y ago
  It comes from the fact that there are many, many jobs for programmers out there. If you don't actually enjoy your job, then it's at least work having a look out there to see if there is something you'd enjoy more. Like the person you quoted said, life is too short to spend 40 hours a week doing something you really don't care about.
- Shish2k 12y ago
  In my experience, competent but unpassionate programmers will do a good job of implementing a flawed spec and be happy about it, because it's management's problem and they get paid the same either way; competent and passionate programmers won't be happy unless the flaws are fixed and they get to make a good product. Both approaches can work, but it's not good to mix the two personality types within a team as their goals are mutually exclusive.
cheatsheet 12y ago
> don't code to exhaustion to satisfy some sort of Asperger's or OCD issues. ... why not? What if nothing else works? > But however you slice it, you cannot get past this one fact: it is an unnatural thing to sit in front of a glowing box for 4, 6, 8 hours a day pecking on little things with your fingers. This type of work has never existed before in the history of our species, and we were not made to do it. I think that's why we have to be very careful not just about the amount of time we code, but all the other things that go with it. Agriculture and medicine are unnatural too. So are exercise machines, standing desks, and memory foam beds. So are books, ships, planes, trains, and bicycles. So is math - thinking about math is very unnatural.

Bahamut 12y ago

I've worked with some people with passion that caused issues - put two people with passion on the same team who have differing approaches? The recipe is ripe for a powder keg, and just needs a match lit to cause sparks to fly. Passion needs to give way to humanity.

DanielBMarkham 12y ago
Absolutely. But this is a solved problem. The creative community has been dealing with this issue for some time. There are a couple of slogans that come to mind. "Strong opinions, lightly held" and "intellectual humility" Passion does not equate to inflexibility.
- blablabla123 12y ago
  Hey, this sounds interesting. Do you have some link/book recommendations for that? I remember that in the book "The hard thing about hard things" Ben Horowitz writes something like "You can't have 2 Michael Jordans on the same team".

peterchon 12y ago

Isn't that what the author was saying? just be focused in your work and be sure to give the company the value they deserve?

kenko 12y ago

What's wrong with being a clock puncher if you're doing your work?

msandford 12y ago
You won't work free overtime for a startup on the hope that your effort is rewarded by a large payday some day. There's nothing inherently wrong with it, but if you're trying to make something out of nothing (which is basically what startups are) it can be incredibly demoralizing to the people who are killing themselves to make it work somehow.
- Silhouette 12y ago
  You've just described a failing startup. Killing yourself to make something work only gets good results by luck, and is a poor business strategy no matter how many shiny startup words anyone uses to dress it up. Likewise, working large amounts of free overtime on someone else's project is for chumps. If you don't have a meaningful financial stake in the business and still do this, someone is taking advantage of you, and following the money/equity will quickly tell you who it is. The only people who reliably win under those conditions are investors who are playing a statistical game and don't suffer any of the adverse personal consequences themselves. Edit: Obviously this doesn't apply to genuine volunteer work, such as contributing to your favourite OSS project or helping out your kid's school or a charity whose goals you want to support. But I don't think these are the kinds of work we are talking about here.
tbrownaw 12y ago
Clocks are expensive to replace? ;) . There's something called "work to rule" that unions apparently do sometimes instead of striking, where they follow all the rules exactly and this causes nothing to ever get done. I imagine being overly strict about your hours would have similar (but much smaller) effects. But, this should go both ways... if I'm going to stay 15 minutes late to finish something I'm in the middle of, I'll expect to be able to come in slightly late or leave a bit early on other days as long as the time more-or-less averages out.

eropple 12y ago

> Have passion for the job and for the problem you're solving. Programming is just one of many tools you need to accomplish that. This is exactly how I approach jobs, and it's made me happier. The most productive things I've ever done have not involved writing code, but rather improving process and helping other people do stuff better. "I solve problems. Computers are sometimes involved."

jmagoon 12y ago

So if someone doesn't have passion they can't be a good developer? And if your passions aren't things that people pay you for, you should, what? What other profession do people have this absurd obsession with passion? I've never, ever heard someone put down an excellent carpenter because they are passionate about sailing and not cabinets. You can do something well, seek improvement in your trade, and be pleasant to be around without having to be passionate about "leveraging branded content for marketers to drive ROI in key demographics using your analytics platform", or whatever job you happen to have at the time.

mark-r 12y ago
If someone is passionate about woodworking, they will make better cabinets than someone who is not. Same with coding. It's not about the hours, at all.
- Iftheshoefits 12y ago
  If they're working alone or with somebody who shares their passion, sure. What about the, oh, 90% of the rest of the time?
- Silhouette 12y ago
  If someone is skilled at woodworking, they will make better cabinets. No doubt there is a correlation between people who are passionate about something and people who are skilled at that thing. It seems likely to be a causal relationship, too. But it's the skill that makes the difference to the end result, not the passion. A diligent, conscientious woodworker might make just as good a cabinet as someone who loves to work wood. And a highly trained, professional woodworker will probably make much better cabinets than an enthusiastic amateur who is just having a go in their spare time.
- taeric 12y ago
  This seems like a dubious claim, to be honest. Just because someone is passionate about something, I see no reason to believe they are good at it. I would love to be proven wrong, as I am passionate about many things. However, I find that those that are more practiced are usually far better than simply those that are passionate. There is plenty of survivor bias in this claim, though. So I try not to use it as an indicator of anything.

throwaway43 12y ago

Clock-punchers might be harming themselves but it wasn't clock punchers that gave us the iPhone.

scott_karana 12y ago
Passionate people might have lead the iPhone project, but there were assuredly many, many clock-punchers implementing the massive set of standard libraries available on the platform, writing specs and documentation, creating visual assets, sounds, etc.
robmcm 12y ago
I wonder how many left the project after launch because they were burnt out? I wonder if we would have a better product now if the core team has stuck around. Talent retainment isn't just about throwing more money at people, it's about a good working environment and often hours.
hashberry 12y ago
That is a horrible example: a physical product that was assembled by third-world clock-punchers in mind-numbing, depressing factories.
- collyw 12y ago
  The impression I get will be they wont leave until the job is done to perfection. Not though the workers choice.

Silhouette 12y ago

But if you don't have passion? I really don't want to work with you. Life's too short to spend 40 hours a week doing stuff you are apathetic about or with other people who are just going to drag you down. I don't understand this mindset. If someone is competent at their job and, ideally, personable company, what's the problem working with them just because they aren't Passionate(TM) about whatever you're doing? Do you think the people who build the roads, or repair the power grid after a storm, or stack the shelves at your local store are passionate about their work? I think sometimes people who enjoy programming and also get paid very well to work as a programmer forget just how lucky they are. Most people don't love their jobs.

cheatsheet 12y ago
> I think sometimes people who enjoy programming and also get paid very well to work as a programmer forget just how lucky they are. Most people don't love their jobs. I forget this all the time, except when I'm programming. I really do love to code, but when I'm away from the computer and I don't feel like coding, I'm actually typically really depressed. At some points in my life, I was lucky to be able to say that I was still alive. Just because someone can get super excited about math and computers doesn't mean that their life is perfect and full of luck either.
s73v3r 12y ago
It comes from the fact that there are many, many jobs for programmers out there. If you don't actually enjoy your job, then it's at least work having a look out there to see if there is something you'd enjoy more. Like the person you quoted said, life is too short to spend 40 hours a week doing something you really don't care about.
Shish2k 12y ago
In my experience, competent but unpassionate programmers will do a good job of implementing a flawed spec and be happy about it, because it's management's problem and they get paid the same either way; competent and passionate programmers won't be happy unless the flaws are fixed and they get to make a good product. Both approaches can work, but it's not good to mix the two personality types within a team as their goals are mutually exclusive.

cheatsheet 12y ago

> don't code to exhaustion to satisfy some sort of Asperger's or OCD issues. ... why not? What if nothing else works? > But however you slice it, you cannot get past this one fact: it is an unnatural thing to sit in front of a glowing box for 4, 6, 8 hours a day pecking on little things with your fingers. This type of work has never existed before in the history of our species, and we were not made to do it. I think that's why we have to be very careful not just about the amount of time we code, but all the other things that go with it. Agriculture and medicine are unnatural too. So are exercise machines, standing desks, and memory foam beds. So are books, ships, planes, trains, and bicycles. So is math - thinking about math is very unnatural.