7 ms·

Science Fairs Aren't So Fair

64 points by klunger 12y ago

droopyEyelids 12y ago
I feel like it's impossible for many people to acknowledge the fact that the world isn't fair. To me, that's the basic assumption that you have to start with. Afterwords, you're free to figure out how to make things more fair, but if you don't start out understanding that things will always be messed up, you're left with a senseless rant. From what I got through it seems like the author was upset that some parents can spend more time with their kids and that teachers were setting a high standard, and that wealth in families can function as a privilege for children. Those seem like pretty fundamental issues to me. The science fair is maybe like a microcosm of life that way, but I didn't get what was a problem unique to it.
- guard-of-terra 12y ago
  Why bother with proxies and not just do bank accounts fair? The whole idea of making children compete is questionable, and once you bring money in it completely loses reason to exist.
  - ars 12y ago
    At the fairs I've gone to they compete on the written portion, and on how well they answer the question, i.e. how well they know the material. The experiment itself doesn't matter as much.
- gbhn 12y ago
  I felt like the author not only decried projects where the kids have access to parental help, but projects where the kids have access to good facilities. And motivation. I'm not sure what's left to measure if we attempted to remove support, facilities, and motivation. The author seems to support the idea that schools should provide more support and facilities. That sounds good, but the outcome of some schools doing this (the infamous ones near New York, apparently) seems to be the focus of criticism. I'm left not understanding the thrust of the article.
  - VLM 12y ago
    "I'm not sure what's left to measure if we attempted to remove support, facilities, and motivation." Money? Unless that's filed under support.
- VLM 12y ago
  On paper the kids do the work, but in practice, its more "what can they get away with". I made it to the state region levels as a kid with a lame project, but I did it all myself, and I remember walking the aisles thinking to myself, "I can probably win against that kid, but there's no way I can win against that kid's Dad who obviously did all the work" The pinewood Derby in scouts kind of suffers from a similar problem, "who's dad has the best woodworking shop" This might be a useful life lesson, in that on a very large scale the first thing you learn in business, politics, law is whats right or legal doesn't matter, its all in what you can get away with and who your parents are, and the top players tend to be better at getting away with things and won the genetic lottery. A meritocracy ... of crooks. And that's an education all in itself that will provide a lifetime of benefits once understood at an early age. So I'm not necessarily seeing a problem with education kids.
  - spiritplumber 12y ago
    That's not the sort of lesson I want kids to learn. Including my kids. I want kids, including my kids, to learn that life is fair and if they don't see it be fair, they have to sit down and fix that.
- Dewie 12y ago
  I agree, to a degree (we're all going to draw a different line in the sand on "fair"). Imagine a kid who has had the best environment possible: his parents were some kind of scientists, encouraged his interest in the same thing, and had access to the proper facilities. Another kid has parents that don't care about any kind of science, and were too poor to indulge his interest beyond letting him buy some books and lend them at the library. If the first kid wins some prize over the other[1], it's not a prize saying "you did best given equal starting points". It just says that he did the best. If you want to measure something other than skill in science X, like having the best willpower and drive irrespective of background and talent, then you should come up with another competition. [1] And they both did the work themselves, to a reasonable degree. Not something that the parents did for them.
- mixedmath 12y ago
  I thought about this too. As a math graduate student, I've helped in programs aimed at helping gifted local high schoolers. It's not just me - several math graduate students and professors contribute. I view this as an excellent opportunity to diffuse a better and deeper understanding, even enjoyment, of mathematics into the community. But I think the author of this article would view this as contributing to systemic unfairness and leading to an uneven playing field.
timr 12y ago
I've been disgusted for years by the parade of "winners" of the major science fairs, most of whom have privileged access to research labs, wealth, or both. Because, protip: no high school student can do graduate-level scientific research. When you see that, it means that the student had special access to a lab that was already doing the work. And yet, year after year, these folks are given lucrative scholarships and trotted out by the media as examples of the best-and-brightest scientific talent. There's no way to reform it -- there's an incentive to game the system, so parents will find a way to a game it. It's just one more example of the perpetuation of wealth across generations.
- wyager 12y ago
  > no high school student can do graduate-level scientific research. That's not true. I've seen better (original) science fair work than some PhD theses. It's just 1/1000 students that can pull it off.
  - LeonRobrotsky 12y ago
    Such as?
    - tokenrove 12y ago
      I went to a national science fair with a friend who (completely on his own) came up with a novel, patentable way of reducing drag on ships. I don't remember the details, but he went to the international stage with it, justifiably, and there was a fair bit of fluid dynamics involved. For me, science fair was the only thing that kept me going to school. (Indeed, I dropped out the next year when I was disallowed from competing.) The project that got me to the nationals was about comparing the efficacy of genetic algorithms against neural networks in a game playing task (with a multi-machine, networked simulator); looking back, it was a big mess, and there was a lot of dumbness (that, if I had had even one mentor, could have been rooted out), but it wasn't dissimilar from unambitious master's projects in the CS department at my local university. Many projects at the national level were much more sophisticated. Like any school competitions (does the author think math and programming contests are any different?), people with ambitious parents who push their children, and especially children in private schools (that often dedicate class time to working on these competitions), have a massive presence at the higher levels. But what's nice is that you don't have to have any of that to get to those higher levels, either. Motivation is a funny thing.
martythemaniak 12y ago
The Simpsons noticed this phenomenon and proposed a solution 20 years ago. https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/79/78/1d/79781db88dbbcde81febb7537554c684.jpg https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/79/78/1d/7978... "And the award goes to the kids who clearly didn't have any help from their parents"
- busyant 12y ago
  I'm right in the middle of this. I have two sons (11 and 8 yo). Yesterday was the cub scouts Pinewood derby. The "kids" each build a 4-wheeled car out of a pinewood block. There are various rules that need to be adhered to. I resisted putting my stamp on the cars, but most of the cars in that derby looked like they were machined by Ferruccio Lamborghini. My kids' cars looked like someone had vomited on a block of pinewood. They did okay in the race, so that made me happy. On the other hand, my 11 yo has an upcoming science fair at his elementary school. This time, I "became what I hate", because I helped him a little too much. I got lab equipment from work. We're not doing anything fancy, but my "fingerprints" are all over it. He's making the poster, but I told him that the poster should contain his name and also state "with help from Dad."
  - bricabrac 12y ago
    Ha! I can relate to this. When I was a kid I lived in a town near a Boeing plant and several of the kids in the local troops had parents who were Boeing engineers. It quickly became apparent at race time who had access to an industrial wind-tunnel.
  - dalke 12y ago
    I'll share my first science experiment that I was happy about. I came up with it in a college class, so well after my science fair days, but it might be something your kids could do. There was pathway with a circular fountain in the middle. The path goes around the fountain. People have the choice of going left or going right. On the outside of the path are benches. My question was, will people avoid walking near someone sitting on the bench? I still remember the numbers. I only measured it when a person was walking alone on the path. If no one sits then 90% of the people veer right to go around the fountain. (Clearly I want to re-do this in the UK.) When I sat on the bench on the right side, only 80% of the people would take the right. 10% of the people changed their path to avoid me, sitting on the bench, reading a book. This is the sort of observational research that your eldest could easily do. Observational research the basis for a lot of research, though often overlooked in favor of flashier technology and lab equipment. The author of one book I read - I believe he was a field biologist - wrote that he gets asked how to encourage someone's child to get involved in science, and he suggests to buy a hand-held click counter. http://99percentinvisible.org/episode/revolving-doors/ http://99percentinvisible.org/episode/revolving-doors/ is an example of how test which sign is the best way to get more people to use a revolving door than a regular door, with the goal of reducing the heating bill. Down this way also lies eccentricities, like John Trinkaus, who won an IgNobel Prize http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ig_Nobel_Prize_winners#2003 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ig_Nobel_Prize_winners#... for publishing reports like "percentage of young people wear baseball caps with the peak facing to the rear rather than to the front". That's pure observational studies, with no experimental variable or control. It won't do well in a science fair.
ChuckMcM 12y ago
Wow a lot of parental angst there. Lets take a paragraph out of that which summarizes this: "Last year my son, who was in third grade at the time, came home with a sheet of paper from his school that listed three categories for appropriate projects: developing a hypothesis and conducting an experiment to test that theory, inventing something new, or researching 'something specific.' The guidelines listed 'whales' as an example of something specific. Given that my son was 8 years old, the idea that he could, on his own, do any single one of these things seemed ludicrous." Ok, so here we have a parent which completely doubts what their kid can do. In my experience this is a pretty bad place for a parent to be, as the kids seem to always be more capable than parents expectation. But the author really drives it home here: "Even the easiest of these items—researching a topic—is nearly impossible for a child who hasn’t yet mastered the ability to browse the Internet. (As a parent and the founder of a tech company, I’ve observed that in order to browse the Internet one needs to know how to scan the screen, differentiate between actual content and ads, and evaluate the trustworthiness of a resource—elements that are far out of reach of most 8-year-olds.)" Get that? Browse the Internet? Here is a question, how hard is it to pick up the volume of the Encyclopedia Britannica with the big "W" on the spine and turn to the page on "Whales" ? Not that hard. I'm sure the problem with that is that an 8 year old cannot be expected to drive themselves to the library. (only half joking). But in context it says volumes about the parent and very little about the child. Even the poorest child can research things like the kinds of insects that live in their neighborhood. The sad part about this article is not that Science Fairs are not fair, its that parents don't know what science is and so cannot help there children develop a sense of wonder and discovery. And what is truly heartbreaking for me is that the author's child has no hope of learning what science is from this person, and if they don't get it in school, well they will grow up believing anything they read on the Internet as truth. That makes for a very sad story indeed.
- needleofjustice 12y ago
  Yup, I agree! If we want to point fingers, lets point them at people of influence who should know better. But authors of internet articles are fairly low on that totem. Leaders in the sciences, public-policymakers, educators and marketers should all be held accountable for the public perception of science. On one hand, science should be taught as an art. It is a creative endeavor, and when well-taught it engages the mind naturally. Why aren't we asking these kids what interests them and helping them apply the appropriate science? On the other hand, science is incredibly useful and necessary to understand the world today, and fix the bugs in our social systems that otherwise are or will cause human suffering. I think finding a handful of heroes to fix all our problems is dumb. We are at a point where fulfilling the greatest potential of all humans should be the goal of any thoughtful person. Let people fix their own problems, but also let them borrow your tools. And science is an amazingly cool set of tools for fixing things.
wyager 12y ago
I did a lot of science fairs in high school. I was pretty good at it, too; I'm currently paying for college with the help of some military research scholarships I won at an international science fair. Here's my perspective on the whole thing. Take it as you will. At the regional science fairs (where everyone starts out), there are a lot of people there who are only doing it because they have to. Usually, their high school requires it. A lot of these projects are shit, and a lot of them also clearly stole the idea or got help from their parents. All of these get eliminated at the regional level. Then, we have the state level fairs. When it comes to engineering projects (mechanical, electrical, or computer), almost 100% of the projects are actually done by the students themselves. It's very easy for engineering judges to tell when someone's bullshitting or didn't actually put in the work, so almost none of the bullshitters make it to the state level. Most of these people don't have any immediate family members who could help them, even if they wanted help. When it comes to biological sciences (medicine especially) the situation is much different. Almost everyone in this category knows their shit, but it's a lot harder to say if they actually did the work themselves or not. A lot of the projects absolutely require that the students work in industrial lab environments. It's impossible for a student doing MRSA research to work in a lab below BSL-2, for example. A lot of these students get lab access through their parents (who may be doctors or researchers or something), so it's very likely they are working alongside their parent, and it's possible that they are working with the help of their parent. A huge portion of students doing this kind of research do have an immediate family member who can (and, with some likelihood, does) help them. Because it's much harder for judges to sniff out people who didn't do original work in the biological sciences category, you get a lot more bullshitters in this category making it all the way to the top science fairs. They're still usually experts in whatever they're researching, but they didn't necessarily put in the thought or effort themselves. When I was at Intel's international fair, the guy who won the top prize claimed to do some sort of cancer-detection research. It was pretty impressive stuff, but after the science fair a whole bunch of incriminating stuff came out. IIRC, there was some situation where his parent had a position of power at some major research university, and he essentially plagiarized the research of some researcher there with minor changes, but it was soon enough after the actual research that no one caught it. I can't speak as much to the other categories (sociology, mathematics, etc.). I didn't have a lot of experience with those.
VLM 12y ago
This quote shows something really bad, although it wasn't explicitly discussed: "But at the three fairs I’ve attended over the last several years, the unknown rarely makes an appearance. At my son's fair last year, at least a handful of students did the popular "experiment" in which the "scientist" waters plants with three different liquids—one of which is typically soda or detergent—to determine which is best for plant growth. "Were you surprised that water made the plant grow?" I asked one child after she presented her experiment. "No," she said." Aka "Science = boring and predictable and uncreative" Which is pretty much the opposite of reality, although a fairly accurate example of K12 science education... Try harder kids? I put 10 seconds into it and got the idea of pond water, fresh chlorinated tap water, and collected rain water? Then again, some decades ago I successfully won the local grade school with what boils down to a grid of detergents/soaps vs sources of dirt. (edited to highlite that dumb project ideas are not a recent invention of 2015, I mean think about it, a hypothesis that clothes detergent cleans dirt from cloth the best is lame, although what cleans kitchen grease was a good question, I think hand soap won?) There is an interesting side dish of some fairs in some decades have allowed research projects or "inventions", which is pretty lame. Do science, do a book report, or do an art project, but don't confuse yourself into thinking the three activities are indistinguishable.
- ars 12y ago
  > I put 10 seconds into it and got the idea of pond water, fresh chlorinated tap water, and collected rain water? You would not see any effect, not with just 3 plants. It's part of the problem - any effect obvious enough to show up with the small resources of a child, is also pretty obvious. I would do different: Have kids reproduce famous known experiments, and get rid of this useless obsession with hypothesis first. Just do a "hey, that's interesting" type experiments.
  - VLM 12y ago
    True, would be a learning experience to break out some basic sampling theory (do 10 bean seeds not 1) and break out the digital calipers to get some precision rather than "eh looks bigger" Or... the kitchen dietary scale. I can go to 1/10th of gram on mine and that might work. Also a stealth observation is the hidden assumption that a negative or null result means the experiment was a failure. Personally I've got a gut feeling that given fertilizer runoff problems, the beans sprouts grown in pond water would grow faster unless the pond was unimaginably pristine. A bored kid could settle this interesting discussion via experiment... better than being stuck with "water, tide, or pepsi, which do plants crave??"
protomyth 12y ago
"Even the easiest of these items—researching a topic—is nearly impossible for a child who hasn’t yet mastered the ability to browse the Internet. (As a parent and the founder of a tech company, I’ve observed that in order to browse the Internet one needs to know how to scan the screen, differentiate between actual content and ads, and evaluate the trustworthiness of a resource—elements that are far out of reach of most 8-year-olds.)" Given your child a book (or ebook I guess). Wow, just wow. Has the disappearance of things like encyclopedias increased the barrier of entry to knowledge? Science fairs (or "Imagination Fairs" as they seem to be called) could be fun, but I get the feeling this is a lot of parents ruining something cool to be competitive.
utunga 12y ago
The time I spent with my dad building a model of a turbofan jet engine - with real spinning blades - for our local science fair, is one of my fondest memories of him. And while it is true that he helped a lot we also did all the work together. Just sayin'.
primitivesuave 12y ago
I judge high school engineering projects at the Synopsys Science Fair and California State Science Fair, and have become quite skilled in BS detection. Aside from the usual methods to detect BS, the most revealing question in my experience has been "what problems did you run into while doing this project?" I ask this question to every student regardless of whether I think their project was BS or not, and the responses from legitimate students are usually sincere admissions of incompetence, while the response from a BSer is some inconsequential roadblock that they easily overcame. Students who are willing to submit a project where they did not produce the actual content will be willing to pawn off any experience or skill as their own, and will vastly overstate their abilities. The students who are humble about what they have accomplished and understand the full implications of their work are usually the ones who produce original work and win science fairs. This year, I saw a project where a high school senior used deep power analysis and machine learning to break AES 128 on a microcontroller (https://instagram.com/p/0JzlxBoIaJ/ https://instagram.com/p/0JzlxBoIaJ/). The student was from a prestigious private school, and the project required an expensive high-precision oscilloscope. Naturally I assumed that he had bought the project off eBay, so I didn't hold back in my questioning. But after I began questioning him, it quickly became clear that this was just an exceptionally bright mind who was willing to put hundreds of hours into deep understanding of a topic and reading the relevant research, before embarking on some original work of his own. He iterated over many possible solutions, and had an incredible demonstration of a working one. When I asked him difficult cryptography questions, he answered them precisely. And when I questioned him on his research methodology, he was humble in acknowledging his shortcomings and truthful in citing the research that guided certain aspects of his project. It is unfair to the exceptional few students capable of producing such a project to assume that all high school students are incapable of doing graduate-level research.
- timr 12y ago
  ...or, you were fooled, and your methodology for BS detection isn't perfect. I've seen, first-hand, kids who were coached to perfection at this sort of thing. And they could easily pass your test: one common pattern is for the kid to be handed a "project" that is pre-conceptualized and nearly complete, and have them do the last 5% of work in consultation with a senior researcher (typically a post-doc). The kid basically flails around for a while, struggles a lot, and learns to talk the talk, but doesn't do much of anything in terms of productive work. So they'll struggle like crazy and hang around brilliant, hard-working people (and therefore be humbled and able to pass your test), but that doesn't mean they did the research. Doing a research project end-to-end takes years of concerted effort. It's almost completely unrealistic to think that a high school senior has put in the time.
mrdrozdov 12y ago
As a kid, I remember science fairs being an enjoyable time to run around a gymnasium learning about cool things with my friends and classmates. There were two projects that I actually remember vividly. One involved measuring distance using laser pens. The other was about how to make different sounds with wine glasses filled of water. If I dig deep into my memory, I think that I probably had one that involved plants, the light spectrum, a vinegar plus baking soda volcano, plus a few more that all probably came out of a science fair book I found in the library. The point is that none of them were scientifically ground breaking as say a new method for pancreatic cancer detection, but I still got almost perfect grades. I never did win any awards, certainly not any monetary ones, but I learned a considerable amount from the hands on experience. Since that time, I've gone to a top 10 engineering school, have written research papers, and even have a patent. I'm applying for PhD programs now to study Artificial Intelligence, which I think is as noble a cause as any, and I haven't thought about my science fair experiences until reading this article. My opinion on the science fair is that it should be more about playfulness and exploration than competition. After all, science should be a team effort rather than a battle royale, and we should worry more about helping one another than whether Sally won because her parent's helped her cut construction paper while Timmy was on his own. If you are a parent worried that the science fair system is too corrupt, perhaps steer your child towards the rise of high school hackathons. I mentored high school students at MIT's Blueprint and was amazing to see high schoolers deploying machine learning solutions after less than 24 hours. The best part was that the hackathon itself was run by college students who are there to help any way they could, which could be one way to level the playing field.
haneefmubarak 12y ago
related: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9208624 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9208624 I was going to put it all in one comment, but I wasn't sure what the HN character limit was.
superqd 12y ago
This was rather timely, for me. I have been struggling with the assumption that my daughter's science fair was due to me, rather than her. I was very proud of her work/effort, and wanted to share that with friends/family, but many of the reactions were, essentially, "well, it was really you who won". And that couldn't be further from truth. Now, one reason, I assume for this reaction, is due to two things: 1) they know I'm science nerd (I have a degree in physics), and 2) she's really young, but won for the whole school (she's in the second grade, and won 1st place for the school, and her own grade). They say this, without even knowing what she did or how she did it. To me, the entire point of the fair is to get kids AND parents involved in science, while exposing kids to the scientific process. So, to me, I get my daughter to do as much of her project as she can. And even things she can't do, I still get her to try, even when it takes her a long time (like typing her slides that get glued to her board - she types with one finger pecking very slowly). But she loved the work, and felt like she was learning something. Her experiment was incredibly simple (literally a cup of water and a timer), and she thought of the procedure herself, and the question she wanted to answer was hers. But, even after I explain this to someone, they still feel my daughter was unfairly advantaged, or at the very least, was given some better than average coaching, because of my background/experience. To a certain extent, I kind of agree on that point. I do try really hard to explain the concepts to her in a way that an 8 year old can understand. But, ultimately, it all comes down to her. The idea and experiment were hers. When I walked the gym and saw the other experiments/projects, many were highly decorated and beautiful (my daughter's had no decoration, just a title and the required sections with text in her own words). And many experiments had rather elaborate processes, and/or complex devices. Sadly, I too thought that many parents were at work, rather than the kids, even knowing how much I made my daughter do on her own. But it all seems to come down to the kids. And, some here have mentioned, the judges are pretty good at detecting BS. So although a perusal of the fair wouldn't make it obvious which kids did their own work, or how much they really learned, and that's where the assessment of the judges has to be taken into account. And it was that that made me feel better about my daughter's work. I was proud of her, because I knew that it was she who did it, and was glad the judges were able to see it. But I totally know that many parents do over-involve themselves to the point the kids don't learn anything. It seems a difficult balance to strike, but it does seem possible to distinguish the extremes.
Glyptodon 12y ago
I stopped reading when the author basically implied that making a trifold poster about whales was too much to ask of her third grader because it would require using the internet. There are probably a lot of problems with science fairs, particularly at higher grade levels. But her example is pretty terrible. My 2nd grade science fair project was making a book about the planets. I chose it because I thought space was cool. All it involved was checking out space books from the school library and then putting a page for each planet in a binder with facts like how big the planet is or how far from the sun along with a hand drawn picture (ie a circle with moderately correct colors). I think there were some extra pages for the Sun and a random moon or two. It could have easily been a trifold poster with most of the same stuff. I had loads of fun because I liked learning anything about space. It could have easily been about whales or something else if that's what I was interested in. But all it took was some help from the school librarian: "I want to do my science fair projects on planets. Do you have any books about planets?" The next year I found a book of experiments in the school library and did one of them and explained it on a trifold. It was fun and not rocket science. I think most of the "experiments" in the book required stuff like rubber bands, paper, and straws. I'm not clear why finding a few books in the school library and making a trifold poster is a headache for an elementary school student. After that I never attended a school with a science fair, but I think it was perfectly reasonable the few years I did participate.
Hydraulix989 12y ago
Anecdotal evidence to the contrary: I was from an unprivileged background growing up in a dying blue collar steel town outside of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania that used to be the company town for ALCOA. I was that one weird kid that was really into computers instead of football like everyone else. I taught myself C++ programming, OpenGL, and matrix math in high school because I wanted to develop 3D games. I convinced my high school principal to let me enter a flight simulator that I wrote during summer break of sophomore year into the Pittsburgh Regional Science Fair (at my own expense), and I won. I remember standing on stage sticking out like a sore thumb from the usual snooty, upper class high schools that everyone knew from around the area. That day, I met a robotics professor at CMU who was one of the judges, and that introduction, along with sending a DVD video of my work to a few top universities with my college application ended up changing my life.
lutorm 12y ago
I've judged at the local school science fair in California, at the Intel ISEF a bunch of years ago, and I was also part of the organization that arranges the national science fair (Utstallningen Unga Forskare) in Sweden. Hence, I think I have some perspective on this topic. The American science fairs are a completely different thing from what we did in Sweden. First, the Swedish one is strictly for 17-19 year olds. But more importantly, the Swedish one is not a competition -- the whole idea is that you do this voluntarily, because you have some project you are excited about, and because you get feedback about your project from real scientists. What purpose does it serve to make it a competition? Isn't the idea to encourage the idea that science and engineering is fun and interesting? Making it a competition just serves to accentuate the issues mentioned in this article: giving an extreme advantage to kids who have access to professional equipment and personal mentoring. And the whole thing about doing "original science" is ludicrous, especially when it's applied to middle school kids. What matters is whether the outcome is known to the student, not to the world. Kids engage in authentic inquiry every day, and whether the topic is "original science" or not matters not one bit. If the choice is between the kid who investigated how different rubber bands shoot rocks of different sizes, but did it by his or herself vs. the one who was hand held through some fancy-sounding project at their parents lab, my choice will go to the former every time. And yes, maybe there are super prodigies out there who actually mastered a research field enough to not only be able to do cutting edge research but also to know enough to pick a topic that is as high school students. I'm not worried about those kids, they don't need encouragement.
learc83 12y ago
I remember what I learned from going to the state science fair in middle school: how to fabricate results when the testing apparatus you built isn't sensitive enough to actually conduct the experiment. I think science fairs could be greatly improved if they were more accepting of failed experiments.
joshontheweb 12y ago
I remember science fairs. I definitely had help from my parents and/or my partners parents. I don't think we ever won anything more than an honorable mention but the experience was really great. One time we did a soil erosion study looking at what kind of tiered mounds would erode less. The second one I forgot what the hypothesis was, but it got me and a friend to study blood and come to an understanding of clotting via platelets. My friends mom was a nurse and had us into the hospital to use the microscopes and take microscopic pictures of blood. The most fun was building an electric motor with my dad (RIP) out of nails and copper wire. I think the test was to see what manners of winding the wire would produce a faster motor. Nothing ground breaking. I'm sure we could have found the answers through study and not testing but it sure helped me grasp the concepts better. These were all elementary school projects and pretty rudimentary but it taught me that you are able to figure things out on your own. You don't necessarily need someone else to do it for you. Not an argument with the article really, just my own experience.
bsder 12y ago
This is why "bucket of bolts" competitions are better. "The task is X. Here is the bucket of parts you are allowed to use. Build the best solution you can." Given the current state of robotics, an alternative is: "Here is the robot. The task is X. Write the program to pull that off." However, those kinds of competitions require way more work on the part of the organizers.

64 points by klunger 12y ago

I feel like it's impossible for many people to acknowledge the fact that the world isn't fair. To me, that's the basic assumption that you have to start with. Afterwords, you're free to figure out how to make things more fair, but if you don't start out understanding that things will always be messed up, you're left with a senseless rant. From what I got through it seems like the author was upset that some parents can spend more time with their kids and that teachers were setting a high standard, and that wealth in families can function as a privilege for children. Those seem like pretty fundamental issues to me. The science fair is maybe like a microcosm of life that way, but I didn't get what was a problem unique to it.

guard-of-terra 12y ago
Why bother with proxies and not just do bank accounts fair? The whole idea of making children compete is questionable, and once you bring money in it completely loses reason to exist.
- ars 12y ago
  At the fairs I've gone to they compete on the written portion, and on how well they answer the question, i.e. how well they know the material. The experiment itself doesn't matter as much.
gbhn 12y ago
I felt like the author not only decried projects where the kids have access to parental help, but projects where the kids have access to good facilities. And motivation. I'm not sure what's left to measure if we attempted to remove support, facilities, and motivation. The author seems to support the idea that schools should provide more support and facilities. That sounds good, but the outcome of some schools doing this (the infamous ones near New York, apparently) seems to be the focus of criticism. I'm left not understanding the thrust of the article.
- VLM 12y ago
  "I'm not sure what's left to measure if we attempted to remove support, facilities, and motivation." Money? Unless that's filed under support.
VLM 12y ago
On paper the kids do the work, but in practice, its more "what can they get away with". I made it to the state region levels as a kid with a lame project, but I did it all myself, and I remember walking the aisles thinking to myself, "I can probably win against that kid, but there's no way I can win against that kid's Dad who obviously did all the work" The pinewood Derby in scouts kind of suffers from a similar problem, "who's dad has the best woodworking shop" This might be a useful life lesson, in that on a very large scale the first thing you learn in business, politics, law is whats right or legal doesn't matter, its all in what you can get away with and who your parents are, and the top players tend to be better at getting away with things and won the genetic lottery. A meritocracy ... of crooks. And that's an education all in itself that will provide a lifetime of benefits once understood at an early age. So I'm not necessarily seeing a problem with education kids.
- spiritplumber 12y ago
  That's not the sort of lesson I want kids to learn. Including my kids. I want kids, including my kids, to learn that life is fair and if they don't see it be fair, they have to sit down and fix that.
Dewie 12y ago
I agree, to a degree (we're all going to draw a different line in the sand on "fair"). Imagine a kid who has had the best environment possible: his parents were some kind of scientists, encouraged his interest in the same thing, and had access to the proper facilities. Another kid has parents that don't care about any kind of science, and were too poor to indulge his interest beyond letting him buy some books and lend them at the library. If the first kid wins some prize over the other[1], it's not a prize saying "you did best given equal starting points". It just says that he did the best. If you want to measure something other than skill in science X, like having the best willpower and drive irrespective of background and talent, then you should come up with another competition. [1] And they both did the work themselves, to a reasonable degree. Not something that the parents did for them.
mixedmath 12y ago
I thought about this too. As a math graduate student, I've helped in programs aimed at helping gifted local high schoolers. It's not just me - several math graduate students and professors contribute. I view this as an excellent opportunity to diffuse a better and deeper understanding, even enjoyment, of mathematics into the community. But I think the author of this article would view this as contributing to systemic unfairness and leading to an uneven playing field.

timr 12y ago

I've been disgusted for years by the parade of "winners" of the major science fairs, most of whom have privileged access to research labs, wealth, or both. Because, protip: no high school student can do graduate-level scientific research. When you see that, it means that the student had special access to a lab that was already doing the work. And yet, year after year, these folks are given lucrative scholarships and trotted out by the media as examples of the best-and-brightest scientific talent. There's no way to reform it -- there's an incentive to game the system, so parents will find a way to a game it. It's just one more example of the perpetuation of wealth across generations.

wyager 12y ago
> no high school student can do graduate-level scientific research. That's not true. I've seen better (original) science fair work than some PhD theses. It's just 1/1000 students that can pull it off.
- LeonRobrotsky 12y ago
  Such as?
  - tokenrove 12y ago
    I went to a national science fair with a friend who (completely on his own) came up with a novel, patentable way of reducing drag on ships. I don't remember the details, but he went to the international stage with it, justifiably, and there was a fair bit of fluid dynamics involved. For me, science fair was the only thing that kept me going to school. (Indeed, I dropped out the next year when I was disallowed from competing.) The project that got me to the nationals was about comparing the efficacy of genetic algorithms against neural networks in a game playing task (with a multi-machine, networked simulator); looking back, it was a big mess, and there was a lot of dumbness (that, if I had had even one mentor, could have been rooted out), but it wasn't dissimilar from unambitious master's projects in the CS department at my local university. Many projects at the national level were much more sophisticated. Like any school competitions (does the author think math and programming contests are any different?), people with ambitious parents who push their children, and especially children in private schools (that often dedicate class time to working on these competitions), have a massive presence at the higher levels. But what's nice is that you don't have to have any of that to get to those higher levels, either. Motivation is a funny thing.

martythemaniak 12y ago

The Simpsons noticed this phenomenon and proposed a solution 20 years ago. https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/79/78/1d/79781db88dbbcde81febb7537554c684.jpg https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/79/78/1d/7978... "And the award goes to the kids who clearly didn't have any help from their parents"

busyant 12y ago
I'm right in the middle of this. I have two sons (11 and 8 yo). Yesterday was the cub scouts Pinewood derby. The "kids" each build a 4-wheeled car out of a pinewood block. There are various rules that need to be adhered to. I resisted putting my stamp on the cars, but most of the cars in that derby looked like they were machined by Ferruccio Lamborghini. My kids' cars looked like someone had vomited on a block of pinewood. They did okay in the race, so that made me happy. On the other hand, my 11 yo has an upcoming science fair at his elementary school. This time, I "became what I hate", because I helped him a little too much. I got lab equipment from work. We're not doing anything fancy, but my "fingerprints" are all over it. He's making the poster, but I told him that the poster should contain his name and also state "with help from Dad."
- bricabrac 12y ago
  Ha! I can relate to this. When I was a kid I lived in a town near a Boeing plant and several of the kids in the local troops had parents who were Boeing engineers. It quickly became apparent at race time who had access to an industrial wind-tunnel.
- dalke 12y ago
  I'll share my first science experiment that I was happy about. I came up with it in a college class, so well after my science fair days, but it might be something your kids could do. There was pathway with a circular fountain in the middle. The path goes around the fountain. People have the choice of going left or going right. On the outside of the path are benches. My question was, will people avoid walking near someone sitting on the bench? I still remember the numbers. I only measured it when a person was walking alone on the path. If no one sits then 90% of the people veer right to go around the fountain. (Clearly I want to re-do this in the UK.) When I sat on the bench on the right side, only 80% of the people would take the right. 10% of the people changed their path to avoid me, sitting on the bench, reading a book. This is the sort of observational research that your eldest could easily do. Observational research the basis for a lot of research, though often overlooked in favor of flashier technology and lab equipment. The author of one book I read - I believe he was a field biologist - wrote that he gets asked how to encourage someone's child to get involved in science, and he suggests to buy a hand-held click counter. http://99percentinvisible.org/episode/revolving-doors/ http://99percentinvisible.org/episode/revolving-doors/ is an example of how test which sign is the best way to get more people to use a revolving door than a regular door, with the goal of reducing the heating bill. Down this way also lies eccentricities, like John Trinkaus, who won an IgNobel Prize http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ig_Nobel_Prize_winners#2003 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ig_Nobel_Prize_winners#... for publishing reports like "percentage of young people wear baseball caps with the peak facing to the rear rather than to the front". That's pure observational studies, with no experimental variable or control. It won't do well in a science fair.

ChuckMcM 12y ago

Wow a lot of parental angst there. Lets take a paragraph out of that which summarizes this: "Last year my son, who was in third grade at the time, came home with a sheet of paper from his school that listed three categories for appropriate projects: developing a hypothesis and conducting an experiment to test that theory, inventing something new, or researching 'something specific.' The guidelines listed 'whales' as an example of something specific. Given that my son was 8 years old, the idea that he could, on his own, do any single one of these things seemed ludicrous." Ok, so here we have a parent which completely doubts what their kid can do. In my experience this is a pretty bad place for a parent to be, as the kids seem to always be more capable than parents expectation. But the author really drives it home here: "Even the easiest of these items—researching a topic—is nearly impossible for a child who hasn’t yet mastered the ability to browse the Internet. (As a parent and the founder of a tech company, I’ve observed that in order to browse the Internet one needs to know how to scan the screen, differentiate between actual content and ads, and evaluate the trustworthiness of a resource—elements that are far out of reach of most 8-year-olds.)" Get that? Browse the Internet? Here is a question, how hard is it to pick up the volume of the Encyclopedia Britannica with the big "W" on the spine and turn to the page on "Whales" ? Not that hard. I'm sure the problem with that is that an 8 year old cannot be expected to drive themselves to the library. (only half joking). But in context it says volumes about the parent and very little about the child. Even the poorest child can research things like the kinds of insects that live in their neighborhood. The sad part about this article is not that Science Fairs are not fair, its that parents don't know what science is and so cannot help there children develop a sense of wonder and discovery. And what is truly heartbreaking for me is that the author's child has no hope of learning what science is from this person, and if they don't get it in school, well they will grow up believing anything they read on the Internet as truth. That makes for a very sad story indeed.

needleofjustice 12y ago
Yup, I agree! If we want to point fingers, lets point them at people of influence who should know better. But authors of internet articles are fairly low on that totem. Leaders in the sciences, public-policymakers, educators and marketers should all be held accountable for the public perception of science. On one hand, science should be taught as an art. It is a creative endeavor, and when well-taught it engages the mind naturally. Why aren't we asking these kids what interests them and helping them apply the appropriate science? On the other hand, science is incredibly useful and necessary to understand the world today, and fix the bugs in our social systems that otherwise are or will cause human suffering. I think finding a handful of heroes to fix all our problems is dumb. We are at a point where fulfilling the greatest potential of all humans should be the goal of any thoughtful person. Let people fix their own problems, but also let them borrow your tools. And science is an amazingly cool set of tools for fixing things.

wyager 12y ago

I did a lot of science fairs in high school. I was pretty good at it, too; I'm currently paying for college with the help of some military research scholarships I won at an international science fair. Here's my perspective on the whole thing. Take it as you will. At the regional science fairs (where everyone starts out), there are a lot of people there who are only doing it because they have to. Usually, their high school requires it. A lot of these projects are shit, and a lot of them also clearly stole the idea or got help from their parents. All of these get eliminated at the regional level. Then, we have the state level fairs. When it comes to engineering projects (mechanical, electrical, or computer), almost 100% of the projects are actually done by the students themselves. It's very easy for engineering judges to tell when someone's bullshitting or didn't actually put in the work, so almost none of the bullshitters make it to the state level. Most of these people don't have any immediate family members who could help them, even if they wanted help. When it comes to biological sciences (medicine especially) the situation is much different. Almost everyone in this category knows their shit, but it's a lot harder to say if they actually did the work themselves or not. A lot of the projects absolutely require that the students work in industrial lab environments. It's impossible for a student doing MRSA research to work in a lab below BSL-2, for example. A lot of these students get lab access through their parents (who may be doctors or researchers or something), so it's very likely they are working alongside their parent, and it's possible that they are working with the help of their parent. A huge portion of students doing this kind of research do have an immediate family member who can (and, with some likelihood, does) help them. Because it's much harder for judges to sniff out people who didn't do original work in the biological sciences category, you get a lot more bullshitters in this category making it all the way to the top science fairs. They're still usually experts in whatever they're researching, but they didn't necessarily put in the thought or effort themselves. When I was at Intel's international fair, the guy who won the top prize claimed to do some sort of cancer-detection research. It was pretty impressive stuff, but after the science fair a whole bunch of incriminating stuff came out. IIRC, there was some situation where his parent had a position of power at some major research university, and he essentially plagiarized the research of some researcher there with minor changes, but it was soon enough after the actual research that no one caught it. I can't speak as much to the other categories (sociology, mathematics, etc.). I didn't have a lot of experience with those.

VLM 12y ago

This quote shows something really bad, although it wasn't explicitly discussed: "But at the three fairs I’ve attended over the last several years, the unknown rarely makes an appearance. At my son's fair last year, at least a handful of students did the popular "experiment" in which the "scientist" waters plants with three different liquids—one of which is typically soda or detergent—to determine which is best for plant growth. "Were you surprised that water made the plant grow?" I asked one child after she presented her experiment. "No," she said." Aka "Science = boring and predictable and uncreative" Which is pretty much the opposite of reality, although a fairly accurate example of K12 science education... Try harder kids? I put 10 seconds into it and got the idea of pond water, fresh chlorinated tap water, and collected rain water? Then again, some decades ago I successfully won the local grade school with what boils down to a grid of detergents/soaps vs sources of dirt. (edited to highlite that dumb project ideas are not a recent invention of 2015, I mean think about it, a hypothesis that clothes detergent cleans dirt from cloth the best is lame, although what cleans kitchen grease was a good question, I think hand soap won?) There is an interesting side dish of some fairs in some decades have allowed research projects or "inventions", which is pretty lame. Do science, do a book report, or do an art project, but don't confuse yourself into thinking the three activities are indistinguishable.

ars 12y ago
> I put 10 seconds into it and got the idea of pond water, fresh chlorinated tap water, and collected rain water? You would not see any effect, not with just 3 plants. It's part of the problem - any effect obvious enough to show up with the small resources of a child, is also pretty obvious. I would do different: Have kids reproduce famous known experiments, and get rid of this useless obsession with hypothesis first. Just do a "hey, that's interesting" type experiments.
- VLM 12y ago
  True, would be a learning experience to break out some basic sampling theory (do 10 bean seeds not 1) and break out the digital calipers to get some precision rather than "eh looks bigger" Or... the kitchen dietary scale. I can go to 1/10th of gram on mine and that might work. Also a stealth observation is the hidden assumption that a negative or null result means the experiment was a failure. Personally I've got a gut feeling that given fertilizer runoff problems, the beans sprouts grown in pond water would grow faster unless the pond was unimaginably pristine. A bored kid could settle this interesting discussion via experiment... better than being stuck with "water, tide, or pepsi, which do plants crave??"

protomyth 12y ago

"Even the easiest of these items—researching a topic—is nearly impossible for a child who hasn’t yet mastered the ability to browse the Internet. (As a parent and the founder of a tech company, I’ve observed that in order to browse the Internet one needs to know how to scan the screen, differentiate between actual content and ads, and evaluate the trustworthiness of a resource—elements that are far out of reach of most 8-year-olds.)" Given your child a book (or ebook I guess). Wow, just wow. Has the disappearance of things like encyclopedias increased the barrier of entry to knowledge? Science fairs (or "Imagination Fairs" as they seem to be called) could be fun, but I get the feeling this is a lot of parents ruining something cool to be competitive.

utunga 12y ago

The time I spent with my dad building a model of a turbofan jet engine - with real spinning blades - for our local science fair, is one of my fondest memories of him. And while it is true that he helped a lot we also did all the work together. Just sayin'.

primitivesuave 12y ago

I judge high school engineering projects at the Synopsys Science Fair and California State Science Fair, and have become quite skilled in BS detection. Aside from the usual methods to detect BS, the most revealing question in my experience has been "what problems did you run into while doing this project?" I ask this question to every student regardless of whether I think their project was BS or not, and the responses from legitimate students are usually sincere admissions of incompetence, while the response from a BSer is some inconsequential roadblock that they easily overcame. Students who are willing to submit a project where they did not produce the actual content will be willing to pawn off any experience or skill as their own, and will vastly overstate their abilities. The students who are humble about what they have accomplished and understand the full implications of their work are usually the ones who produce original work and win science fairs. This year, I saw a project where a high school senior used deep power analysis and machine learning to break AES 128 on a microcontroller (https://instagram.com/p/0JzlxBoIaJ/ https://instagram.com/p/0JzlxBoIaJ/). The student was from a prestigious private school, and the project required an expensive high-precision oscilloscope. Naturally I assumed that he had bought the project off eBay, so I didn't hold back in my questioning. But after I began questioning him, it quickly became clear that this was just an exceptionally bright mind who was willing to put hundreds of hours into deep understanding of a topic and reading the relevant research, before embarking on some original work of his own. He iterated over many possible solutions, and had an incredible demonstration of a working one. When I asked him difficult cryptography questions, he answered them precisely. And when I questioned him on his research methodology, he was humble in acknowledging his shortcomings and truthful in citing the research that guided certain aspects of his project. It is unfair to the exceptional few students capable of producing such a project to assume that all high school students are incapable of doing graduate-level research.

timr 12y ago
...or, you were fooled, and your methodology for BS detection isn't perfect. I've seen, first-hand, kids who were coached to perfection at this sort of thing. And they could easily pass your test: one common pattern is for the kid to be handed a "project" that is pre-conceptualized and nearly complete, and have them do the last 5% of work in consultation with a senior researcher (typically a post-doc). The kid basically flails around for a while, struggles a lot, and learns to talk the talk, but doesn't do much of anything in terms of productive work. So they'll struggle like crazy and hang around brilliant, hard-working people (and therefore be humbled and able to pass your test), but that doesn't mean they did the research. Doing a research project end-to-end takes years of concerted effort. It's almost completely unrealistic to think that a high school senior has put in the time.

mrdrozdov 12y ago

As a kid, I remember science fairs being an enjoyable time to run around a gymnasium learning about cool things with my friends and classmates. There were two projects that I actually remember vividly. One involved measuring distance using laser pens. The other was about how to make different sounds with wine glasses filled of water. If I dig deep into my memory, I think that I probably had one that involved plants, the light spectrum, a vinegar plus baking soda volcano, plus a few more that all probably came out of a science fair book I found in the library. The point is that none of them were scientifically ground breaking as say a new method for pancreatic cancer detection, but I still got almost perfect grades. I never did win any awards, certainly not any monetary ones, but I learned a considerable amount from the hands on experience. Since that time, I've gone to a top 10 engineering school, have written research papers, and even have a patent. I'm applying for PhD programs now to study Artificial Intelligence, which I think is as noble a cause as any, and I haven't thought about my science fair experiences until reading this article. My opinion on the science fair is that it should be more about playfulness and exploration than competition. After all, science should be a team effort rather than a battle royale, and we should worry more about helping one another than whether Sally won because her parent's helped her cut construction paper while Timmy was on his own. If you are a parent worried that the science fair system is too corrupt, perhaps steer your child towards the rise of high school hackathons. I mentored high school students at MIT's Blueprint and was amazing to see high schoolers deploying machine learning solutions after less than 24 hours. The best part was that the hackathon itself was run by college students who are there to help any way they could, which could be one way to level the playing field.

haneefmubarak 12y ago

related: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9208624 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9208624 I was going to put it all in one comment, but I wasn't sure what the HN character limit was.

superqd 12y ago

This was rather timely, for me. I have been struggling with the assumption that my daughter's science fair was due to me, rather than her. I was very proud of her work/effort, and wanted to share that with friends/family, but many of the reactions were, essentially, "well, it was really you who won". And that couldn't be further from truth. Now, one reason, I assume for this reaction, is due to two things: 1) they know I'm science nerd (I have a degree in physics), and 2) she's really young, but won for the whole school (she's in the second grade, and won 1st place for the school, and her own grade). They say this, without even knowing what she did or how she did it. To me, the entire point of the fair is to get kids AND parents involved in science, while exposing kids to the scientific process. So, to me, I get my daughter to do as much of her project as she can. And even things she can't do, I still get her to try, even when it takes her a long time (like typing her slides that get glued to her board - she types with one finger pecking very slowly). But she loved the work, and felt like she was learning something. Her experiment was incredibly simple (literally a cup of water and a timer), and she thought of the procedure herself, and the question she wanted to answer was hers. But, even after I explain this to someone, they still feel my daughter was unfairly advantaged, or at the very least, was given some better than average coaching, because of my background/experience. To a certain extent, I kind of agree on that point. I do try really hard to explain the concepts to her in a way that an 8 year old can understand. But, ultimately, it all comes down to her. The idea and experiment were hers. When I walked the gym and saw the other experiments/projects, many were highly decorated and beautiful (my daughter's had no decoration, just a title and the required sections with text in her own words). And many experiments had rather elaborate processes, and/or complex devices. Sadly, I too thought that many parents were at work, rather than the kids, even knowing how much I made my daughter do on her own. But it all seems to come down to the kids. And, some here have mentioned, the judges are pretty good at detecting BS. So although a perusal of the fair wouldn't make it obvious which kids did their own work, or how much they really learned, and that's where the assessment of the judges has to be taken into account. And it was that that made me feel better about my daughter's work. I was proud of her, because I knew that it was she who did it, and was glad the judges were able to see it. But I totally know that many parents do over-involve themselves to the point the kids don't learn anything. It seems a difficult balance to strike, but it does seem possible to distinguish the extremes.

Glyptodon 12y ago

I stopped reading when the author basically implied that making a trifold poster about whales was too much to ask of her third grader because it would require using the internet. There are probably a lot of problems with science fairs, particularly at higher grade levels. But her example is pretty terrible. My 2nd grade science fair project was making a book about the planets. I chose it because I thought space was cool. All it involved was checking out space books from the school library and then putting a page for each planet in a binder with facts like how big the planet is or how far from the sun along with a hand drawn picture (ie a circle with moderately correct colors). I think there were some extra pages for the Sun and a random moon or two. It could have easily been a trifold poster with most of the same stuff. I had loads of fun because I liked learning anything about space. It could have easily been about whales or something else if that's what I was interested in. But all it took was some help from the school librarian: "I want to do my science fair projects on planets. Do you have any books about planets?" The next year I found a book of experiments in the school library and did one of them and explained it on a trifold. It was fun and not rocket science. I think most of the "experiments" in the book required stuff like rubber bands, paper, and straws. I'm not clear why finding a few books in the school library and making a trifold poster is a headache for an elementary school student. After that I never attended a school with a science fair, but I think it was perfectly reasonable the few years I did participate.

Hydraulix989 12y ago

Anecdotal evidence to the contrary: I was from an unprivileged background growing up in a dying blue collar steel town outside of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania that used to be the company town for ALCOA. I was that one weird kid that was really into computers instead of football like everyone else. I taught myself C++ programming, OpenGL, and matrix math in high school because I wanted to develop 3D games. I convinced my high school principal to let me enter a flight simulator that I wrote during summer break of sophomore year into the Pittsburgh Regional Science Fair (at my own expense), and I won. I remember standing on stage sticking out like a sore thumb from the usual snooty, upper class high schools that everyone knew from around the area. That day, I met a robotics professor at CMU who was one of the judges, and that introduction, along with sending a DVD video of my work to a few top universities with my college application ended up changing my life.

lutorm 12y ago

I've judged at the local school science fair in California, at the Intel ISEF a bunch of years ago, and I was also part of the organization that arranges the national science fair (Utstallningen Unga Forskare) in Sweden. Hence, I think I have some perspective on this topic. The American science fairs are a completely different thing from what we did in Sweden. First, the Swedish one is strictly for 17-19 year olds. But more importantly, the Swedish one is not a competition -- the whole idea is that you do this voluntarily, because you have some project you are excited about, and because you get feedback about your project from real scientists. What purpose does it serve to make it a competition? Isn't the idea to encourage the idea that science and engineering is fun and interesting? Making it a competition just serves to accentuate the issues mentioned in this article: giving an extreme advantage to kids who have access to professional equipment and personal mentoring. And the whole thing about doing "original science" is ludicrous, especially when it's applied to middle school kids. What matters is whether the outcome is known to the student, not to the world. Kids engage in authentic inquiry every day, and whether the topic is "original science" or not matters not one bit. If the choice is between the kid who investigated how different rubber bands shoot rocks of different sizes, but did it by his or herself vs. the one who was hand held through some fancy-sounding project at their parents lab, my choice will go to the former every time. And yes, maybe there are super prodigies out there who actually mastered a research field enough to not only be able to do cutting edge research but also to know enough to pick a topic that is as high school students. I'm not worried about those kids, they don't need encouragement.

learc83 12y ago

I remember what I learned from going to the state science fair in middle school: how to fabricate results when the testing apparatus you built isn't sensitive enough to actually conduct the experiment. I think science fairs could be greatly improved if they were more accepting of failed experiments.

joshontheweb 12y ago

I remember science fairs. I definitely had help from my parents and/or my partners parents. I don't think we ever won anything more than an honorable mention but the experience was really great. One time we did a soil erosion study looking at what kind of tiered mounds would erode less. The second one I forgot what the hypothesis was, but it got me and a friend to study blood and come to an understanding of clotting via platelets. My friends mom was a nurse and had us into the hospital to use the microscopes and take microscopic pictures of blood. The most fun was building an electric motor with my dad (RIP) out of nails and copper wire. I think the test was to see what manners of winding the wire would produce a faster motor. Nothing ground breaking. I'm sure we could have found the answers through study and not testing but it sure helped me grasp the concepts better. These were all elementary school projects and pretty rudimentary but it taught me that you are able to figure things out on your own. You don't necessarily need someone else to do it for you. Not an argument with the article really, just my own experience.

bsder 12y ago

This is why "bucket of bolts" competitions are better. "The task is X. Here is the bucket of parts you are allowed to use. Build the best solution you can." Given the current state of robotics, an alternative is: "Here is the robot. The task is X. Write the program to pull that off." However, those kinds of competitions require way more work on the part of the organizers.