5 ms·

I've been fortunate to anti-work all my life. I've started companies, built technology, made sales, written books, and generally got paid well to do what I love

by sago 12y ago

I've been fortunate to anti-work all my life. I've started companies, built technology, made sales, written books, and generally got paid well to do what I love. I've anti-worked very hard. Often 15 hour days for months on a new project. I have a spouse who is a homebird and provides me the flexibility and support I need for that. In return I support the household. I've been reasonably successful. Not rich, but I have a home, a residual income, assets, I can buy nice things, and buy nice experiences. I can provide for my children and give to charity. There are plenty of people who work, who work more than one job. They turn up, are told what to do, are at the mercy of the politicking of the organisation, get paid poorly, are physically exhausted, are pressured into moral compromises, have little medical or mental health support, have no assets or qualifications to be able to escape, and are well aware they would not be able to find anything substantially better. Perhaps they work 10 hours a day, then go home, cook for their kids, put them to bed, do the laundry and clean and crash. When people try to compare my effort against those people, and say "look at people like him, he's proof hard work is the road to success!" I find it morally obnoxious. The lie that work is the road to success is perpetuated by those who are able to anti-work, to maximise their own success on the backs of those who can't.

themartorana 12y ago
Most importantly is that many of those people shouting about the virtue of work are enjoying anti-work on the backs of those working harder than ever. I don't know if it's actually malicious, or just an echo chamber (there have been plenty of studies that show that the more money people have, the more they feel they deserve to be in the position they are [0] - this of course being a generalization and not an accusation of parent), but it certainly seems like a degree of Ostrich Syndrome when it comes to acknowledging how the efforts of many often benefit the few. Edit: forgot link [0] http://blog.ted.com/6-studies-of-money-and-the-mind/ http://blog.ted.com/6-studies-of-money-and-the-mind/
- sago 12y ago
  The idea that someone can claim they deserve their success because they worked so hard, when 'work hard' just means 'spend long-hours doing something they were intellectually and emotionally engaged by' seems so transparently egotistic. On that basis, most successful people I know almost never work hard.
  - themartorana 12y ago
    I spent a summer working on a peach farm in the packing house. It was hard work. The next summer I worked as a life guard at a private club, which was over all incredibly easy (and I got paid more). It was transparent which life I'd rather lead. Fast forward 20 years, and as "hard" as I work in software and mobile games, it's never been as soul crushing as working on the farm for minimum wage, with absurdly strict owners. (I once got yelled at for looking at the clock on the wall behind me when we were in a lull.) My now father-in-law has been a farmer for 60+ years. He has never had much money and still works the fields. He works hard. I'm pretty sure I only did once, 22 years ago.
    - danieltillett 12y ago
      I feel the same. I have worked in agricultural jobs and it is really hard work - work so hard that even when young and fit you end the day so tired that you want to sleep as soon as the sun goes down. About the only positive out of this experience is it does make me really appreciate the cushy lifestyle I have now :)
      - cglace 12y ago
        I'm the opposite. I worked landscaping for a few years and loved the fresh air, blue skies and working with my hands.
        danieltillett 12y ago
        I have bank of large windows in my office overlooking a sea of green that I can open and enjoy the outside weather. I don’t think I would be too happy being in some basement under fluorescent lights year round.
      - thret 12y ago
        It depends though. I have a friend who bought a winery+vineyard after he retired, he's losing money and working very hard but he's also happy. I've spent a day out at his farm, pruning vines and getting shown around his equipment and all the things he's excited about. We ended the day with a big family BBQ on the veranda and so much wine... pretty good retirement if you can afford it.
- golergka 12y ago
  > on the backs of those working harder than ever As a software engineer — no I don't. Sometimes I feel bad about earning a lot of money doing what I love, but at the same time, I know for sure that I don't exploit anyone, and that I got where I am only thanks to my own work. Yes, it's unfair that the world needs more software engineers than artists right now, and if I loved art more than code but that doesn't mean that I exploit anyone.
  - e_proxus 12y ago
    You most likely do. The hardware you use is probably manufactured under much more severe conditions that under those you work. And what about the raw materials required to produce that hardware? Some of those are probably mined under much more harsh conditions. The same goes for the clothes you wear, the food you eat etc. (though, to be fair it is easier to consciously buy better food and clothes today than hardware). I often felt bad working in the software business because of the issues with hardware manufacturing. You can buy locally produced clothes and food, and you can often figure out under what conditions they are made under. With hardware, not so much.
    - StavrosK 12y ago
      That's a bit disingenuous. By that logic, everyone exploits people, so the baseline just rises to that, making the GP's statement "I didn't exploit any more people than everyone else", which is more or less true.
    - golergka 12y ago
      Yes, I use products that are made by people that fare worse than me. This statement will stay true forever for any member of the middle class, unless humanity will get rid of money, and enters post-scarcity economy of Star Trek (which would've been called communism, if wasn't such a loaded world). But it doesn't mean that I exploit those people in any way.
      - countrybama24 12y ago
        You are the customer of those who do exploit those people though. We're all complicit in this, but I think it's equally disingenuous to wash one's hands of all exploitation in supply chain they benefit from simply because they don't directly make the decision to exploit someone. You're fortunate to work in an industry where workers have enough leverage to combat the exploitation rampant in other industries. And it is not inevitable, we could end (or at least minimize) the violent, chaotic exploitation without needing a post-scarcity economy in my opinion.
partition 12y ago
This is also known as value _creation_ versus value _transference_: http://halfsigma.typepad.com/half_sigma/2008/03/value-creation.html http://halfsigma.typepad.com/half_sigma/2008/03/value-creati... I do not completely agree with the guy's views; in particular I do not believe in there being anything other than value transference, and value "creation" means you are closer to physics, transferring value at a physical level, than to politics and sales, transferring value from other people. But it does cut the bullshit.
jokoon 12y ago
> on the backs of those who can't So, do you feel guilty ? I have no mercy for people who work hard and pretend they deserve more because they're not unemployed. I'm unemployed, but I'm not living comfortably, and I honestly cannot fathom the idea of obeying someone because I should "contribute" because that's righteous. I live in france, there's a lot of welfare there, unemployment is at 10% (the U3 stat), workers are treated nicely, but there's a lot of hypocrisy about it. I don't think most people cannot "antiwork". Work is not mandatory, work is consented. People can negotiate their salary. If nobody does, I'd agree to blame the entire society and its citizens for not standing up to higher standards. Slavery has been abolished, but slave wages show that people now consent to be treated like shit, so to me, people are responsible of their own situations. In my opinion, if people agree to be treated like slaves, let them be treated like so, and let the other laze away. We live in the 21th century, people should not give up so easily on their life. I'm tired of people arguing that capitalism and free market are virtuous, while a large majority of people are being paid at the minimum wage. Minimum wage doesn't feel like freedom, it feels everybody is treated the same no matter the contribution. It's not free market anymore, it sounds more like an exploitative society that can't lift individuals out of their poverty.
- StavrosK 12y ago
  Consent is a slippery notion. If the choice is between a shitty job and homelessness, did you really consent to the shitty job? It's a tragedy of the commons, people do what's best for them individually while making society as a whole worse.
  - jokoon 12y ago
    Well yeah, that's why the role of democracy is to work towards the mutual interests of individuals...
- loup-vaillant 12y ago
  Don't underestimate network effects. If most people consent to being treated like shit for a lousy pay, those who don't will be singled out. Which makes it even harder to stand up for yourself… well you get the idea. Demand better terms by yourself, and you will simply be dismissed as entitled, arrogant, or not knowing your place. Have everyone demand better terms, and you will all get them.

by sago 12y ago

themartorana 12y ago

Most importantly is that many of those people shouting about the virtue of work are enjoying anti-work on the backs of those working harder than ever. I don't know if it's actually malicious, or just an echo chamber (there have been plenty of studies that show that the more money people have, the more they feel they deserve to be in the position they are [0] - this of course being a generalization and not an accusation of parent), but it certainly seems like a degree of Ostrich Syndrome when it comes to acknowledging how the efforts of many often benefit the few. Edit: forgot link [0] http://blog.ted.com/6-studies-of-money-and-the-mind/ http://blog.ted.com/6-studies-of-money-and-the-mind/

sago 12y ago
The idea that someone can claim they deserve their success because they worked so hard, when 'work hard' just means 'spend long-hours doing something they were intellectually and emotionally engaged by' seems so transparently egotistic. On that basis, most successful people I know almost never work hard.
- themartorana 12y ago
  I spent a summer working on a peach farm in the packing house. It was hard work. The next summer I worked as a life guard at a private club, which was over all incredibly easy (and I got paid more). It was transparent which life I'd rather lead. Fast forward 20 years, and as "hard" as I work in software and mobile games, it's never been as soul crushing as working on the farm for minimum wage, with absurdly strict owners. (I once got yelled at for looking at the clock on the wall behind me when we were in a lull.) My now father-in-law has been a farmer for 60+ years. He has never had much money and still works the fields. He works hard. I'm pretty sure I only did once, 22 years ago.
  - danieltillett 12y ago
    I feel the same. I have worked in agricultural jobs and it is really hard work - work so hard that even when young and fit you end the day so tired that you want to sleep as soon as the sun goes down. About the only positive out of this experience is it does make me really appreciate the cushy lifestyle I have now :)
    - cglace 12y ago
      I'm the opposite. I worked landscaping for a few years and loved the fresh air, blue skies and working with my hands.
      - danieltillett 12y ago
        I have bank of large windows in my office overlooking a sea of green that I can open and enjoy the outside weather. I don’t think I would be too happy being in some basement under fluorescent lights year round.
    - thret 12y ago
      It depends though. I have a friend who bought a winery+vineyard after he retired, he's losing money and working very hard but he's also happy. I've spent a day out at his farm, pruning vines and getting shown around his equipment and all the things he's excited about. We ended the day with a big family BBQ on the veranda and so much wine... pretty good retirement if you can afford it.
golergka 12y ago
> on the backs of those working harder than ever As a software engineer — no I don't. Sometimes I feel bad about earning a lot of money doing what I love, but at the same time, I know for sure that I don't exploit anyone, and that I got where I am only thanks to my own work. Yes, it's unfair that the world needs more software engineers than artists right now, and if I loved art more than code but that doesn't mean that I exploit anyone.
- e_proxus 12y ago
  You most likely do. The hardware you use is probably manufactured under much more severe conditions that under those you work. And what about the raw materials required to produce that hardware? Some of those are probably mined under much more harsh conditions. The same goes for the clothes you wear, the food you eat etc. (though, to be fair it is easier to consciously buy better food and clothes today than hardware). I often felt bad working in the software business because of the issues with hardware manufacturing. You can buy locally produced clothes and food, and you can often figure out under what conditions they are made under. With hardware, not so much.
  - StavrosK 12y ago
    That's a bit disingenuous. By that logic, everyone exploits people, so the baseline just rises to that, making the GP's statement "I didn't exploit any more people than everyone else", which is more or less true.
  - golergka 12y ago
    Yes, I use products that are made by people that fare worse than me. This statement will stay true forever for any member of the middle class, unless humanity will get rid of money, and enters post-scarcity economy of Star Trek (which would've been called communism, if wasn't such a loaded world). But it doesn't mean that I exploit those people in any way.
    - countrybama24 12y ago
      You are the customer of those who do exploit those people though. We're all complicit in this, but I think it's equally disingenuous to wash one's hands of all exploitation in supply chain they benefit from simply because they don't directly make the decision to exploit someone. You're fortunate to work in an industry where workers have enough leverage to combat the exploitation rampant in other industries. And it is not inevitable, we could end (or at least minimize) the violent, chaotic exploitation without needing a post-scarcity economy in my opinion.

partition 12y ago

This is also known as value _creation_ versus value _transference_: http://halfsigma.typepad.com/half_sigma/2008/03/value-creation.html http://halfsigma.typepad.com/half_sigma/2008/03/value-creati... I do not completely agree with the guy's views; in particular I do not believe in there being anything other than value transference, and value "creation" means you are closer to physics, transferring value at a physical level, than to politics and sales, transferring value from other people. But it does cut the bullshit.

jokoon 12y ago

> on the backs of those who can't So, do you feel guilty ? I have no mercy for people who work hard and pretend they deserve more because they're not unemployed. I'm unemployed, but I'm not living comfortably, and I honestly cannot fathom the idea of obeying someone because I should "contribute" because that's righteous. I live in france, there's a lot of welfare there, unemployment is at 10% (the U3 stat), workers are treated nicely, but there's a lot of hypocrisy about it. I don't think most people cannot "antiwork". Work is not mandatory, work is consented. People can negotiate their salary. If nobody does, I'd agree to blame the entire society and its citizens for not standing up to higher standards. Slavery has been abolished, but slave wages show that people now consent to be treated like shit, so to me, people are responsible of their own situations. In my opinion, if people agree to be treated like slaves, let them be treated like so, and let the other laze away. We live in the 21th century, people should not give up so easily on their life. I'm tired of people arguing that capitalism and free market are virtuous, while a large majority of people are being paid at the minimum wage. Minimum wage doesn't feel like freedom, it feels everybody is treated the same no matter the contribution. It's not free market anymore, it sounds more like an exploitative society that can't lift individuals out of their poverty.

StavrosK 12y ago
Consent is a slippery notion. If the choice is between a shitty job and homelessness, did you really consent to the shitty job? It's a tragedy of the commons, people do what's best for them individually while making society as a whole worse.
- jokoon 12y ago
  Well yeah, that's why the role of democracy is to work towards the mutual interests of individuals...
loup-vaillant 12y ago
Don't underestimate network effects. If most people consent to being treated like shit for a lousy pay, those who don't will be singled out. Which makes it even harder to stand up for yourself… well you get the idea. Demand better terms by yourself, and you will simply be dismissed as entitled, arrogant, or not knowing your place. Have everyone demand better terms, and you will all get them.