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Indeed. It does seem that people who talk about empathy will sometimes really mean they want you to agree with whatever they think, or whatever their version of

Indeed. It does seem that people who talk about empathy will sometimes really mean they want you to agree with whatever they think, or whatever their version of empathy is. Not that I would accuse TFA of that -- it's explicit about "knowing your enemy" and listening to someone you are disagreeing with.

nostrademons 12y ago
It's not incompatible for someone to have a lot of empathy and still just want you to agree with whatever they think. The real test is whether you find yourself actually agreeing with what they think. If you do, they have successfully gotten into your head and performed inception. If you don't, they bungled it.
- serve_yay 12y ago
  Well, what I mean to say is that talk about empathy is sometimes talk about "just agree with me and stop with all your opinions otherwise". Which is of course the opposite of envy. I don't really understand about the inception stuff.
  - nostrademons 12y ago
    Then I fail at empathy. ;-) I'm saying that being able to communicate your ideas requires that you step into the mind of the listener - i.e, empathy. If you do this successfully, you express them in a language that is already familiar to him, and so (to him) it seems like you're saying something obvious. If you have to resort to "just agree with me and stop with all your opinions otherwise", then you don't actually understand how he thinks or how to reach him, i.e. you have failed at empathy. We agree, but I am trying to add a little extra detail and a meta-example to the discussion. :-)
- lazaroclapp 12y ago
  You assume that understanding a belief system is enough to manipulate it in the direction you want. This is not necessarily always possible. If you want a external test of empathy, how about settling for the ability to predict what someone else will do, given particular circumstances? Even this much simpler test is often blundered at, even by professional diplomats.
- marcosdumay 12y ago
  Funny thing that empathy should make it easier to recognize those people... Yet, most people simply can not empathize with them.

nostrademons 12y ago

It's not incompatible for someone to have a lot of empathy and still just want you to agree with whatever they think. The real test is whether you find yourself actually agreeing with what they think. If you do, they have successfully gotten into your head and performed inception. If you don't, they bungled it.

serve_yay 12y ago
Well, what I mean to say is that talk about empathy is sometimes talk about "just agree with me and stop with all your opinions otherwise". Which is of course the opposite of envy. I don't really understand about the inception stuff.
- nostrademons 12y ago
  Then I fail at empathy. ;-) I'm saying that being able to communicate your ideas requires that you step into the mind of the listener - i.e, empathy. If you do this successfully, you express them in a language that is already familiar to him, and so (to him) it seems like you're saying something obvious. If you have to resort to "just agree with me and stop with all your opinions otherwise", then you don't actually understand how he thinks or how to reach him, i.e. you have failed at empathy. We agree, but I am trying to add a little extra detail and a meta-example to the discussion. :-)
lazaroclapp 12y ago
You assume that understanding a belief system is enough to manipulate it in the direction you want. This is not necessarily always possible. If you want a external test of empathy, how about settling for the ability to predict what someone else will do, given particular circumstances? Even this much simpler test is often blundered at, even by professional diplomats.
marcosdumay 12y ago
Funny thing that empathy should make it easier to recognize those people... Yet, most people simply can not empathize with them.