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It's a testament to the differences between perception and reality. The NHS in the UK regularly gets poor ratings, in fact they're regularly flat out abysmal on

It's a testament to the differences between perception and reality. The NHS in the UK regularly gets poor ratings, in fact they're regularly flat out abysmal on national satisfaction scales, yet all out-patient questionnaire's regularly return with satisfaction rates >90%. People perceive the NHS as this behemoth incapable of performing, but the reality is that it performs amazingly well and provides one of the best health care in the world. Perceptions of America suffer a similar thing, it's always direly low in many countries. A very recent poll in Canada showed that they like Obama, and that a vast majority like Americans as individuals. Yet respondents states that Canadians dislike America on a whole more since Obama took office than before, and that Canadians feel less safe visiting the US than before. Even I have recognized the cognitive dissonance of liking many Americans, liking the Presidency, I even like a vast amount of Americas culture, yet there's something ingrained in me that dislikes 'America'. Perhaps it's just the politics.

chrischen 17y ago
What you dislike are probably all the bad things that come out of America. The bad things tend to stick in the mind and define things. Probably doesn't help that America's so big and diverse; there's a lot there to hate.
lupin_sansei 17y ago
> one of the best health care in the world Are you serious? Check the poor cancer survival rates in UK compared to the rest of world: "Since that time, cancer survival rates in England have been steadily improving for but we (Department of Health spokesman) accept that there is further work to do to reduce the gap between us and the rest of northern and western Europe and America." http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7510121.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7510121.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6955545.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6955545.stm
- bilbo0s 17y ago
  Uh . . . Had to call this one. Full Disclosure: Cancer Researcher here. I looked into how to analyze data over time to elicit better outcomes in a former life. Cancer is a hard problem, REALLY hard. Hematological Cancers as well, super hard. It is less than wise to judge a health care system by its ability to treat cancer. Literally, there are often times when a patient is being attended solely for the purposes of learning as much as we can before she dies. Thus, hopefully, getting us into a better position to help the next person. Let's try to confine the discussion to areas where you get the most bang for the buck. Primary care for instance. Further disclosure: I am American. Limited experience with using UK health system. So 'good' or 'bad' are assessments it would be out of place for me to make. This is simply a post to add context to the discussion.
  - lupin_sansei 17y ago
    I think it's fair enough to ask how come a country that claims to have one of the best healthcare systems in the world (the UK) has such bad cancer survival rates?
    - pedrocr 17y ago
      From what I have seen about the UK system it is very much based on a cost-benefit tradeoff for treatments. Basically they do all the treatments that fit in the budget ordered by how many extra years of life expectancy each will add on average to the patient. Other countries have much less rational ways of going about it so it may very well be that on the specific case of cancer they are bellow standard just because the standard is irrationally high. Statistics about life expectancy at birth put them at number 25 slightly above the EU average and the US. They are still bellow a bunch of other European countries and of course life expectancy is a function of more than the health service itself but also the habits of the population in terms of diet, exercise, etc. Edit: According to this (random google search): http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_dea_fro_can-health-death-from-cancer http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_dea_fro_can-health-dea... The UK actually beats the US and most of Europe on the number of actual cancer deaths. So either its healthcare or its eating/exercise habits is doing enough about cancer prevention to make them perform well on general survival. Maybe they do perform badly once you have cancer though.
    - wisty 17y ago
      Cancer is what kills you if nothing else does. Either that or heart failure. If people are dying from TB or other easily treated (or prevented) diseases, then it's time to question the health system. Early detection is a huge factor in treatable cancers, and that might be social factors (Brits refusing to go for a checkup), rather than their health-care system. The biggest difference is between men and women; not between countries. Perhaps women are more likely to get their lumps checked?
    - Adam503 17y ago
      I think it fair to show the video of John Stewart destroying Betsy McCaughey, author of both the death panel lies and now this cancer survival rate lies. http://www.mediaite.com/tv/finally-jon-stewart-gives-betsy-mccaughey-a-polite-but-devastating-smackdown-on-the-daily-show/ http://www.mediaite.com/tv/finally-jon-stewart-gives-betsy-m... http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba596 http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba596 "...Two interesting things about this Daily Show interview with GOP health care demagogue Betsy McCaughey: (1) It was cut off in the middle, with Stewart directing viewers immediately after to the website, where the unedited second part would be waiting; and (2) Stewart patiently, politely, and firmly smacked down her exaggerations, misrepresentations and lies. I hope every other newscaster in America was watching...."
- Adam503 17y ago
  The author of that so-called "cancer survival rates" BS is Betsy McCaughey, the woman who invented the "death panels" nonsense. Here's link to webpage with video of John Stewart unloading on Betsy McCaughey for 2 entire segments of the Daily Show because of the "death panels" http://www.mediaite.com/tv/finally-jon-stewart-gives-betsy-mccaughey-a-polite-but-devastating-smackdown-on-the-daily-show/ http://www.mediaite.com/tv/finally-jon-stewart-gives-betsy-m...
bad_user 17y ago
That's because "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts". I also like many things about the US, but on the whole I don't like the US especially because of their foreign policies. Individuals are often very nice people (not just in the US), but in large groups their mentality can change drastically, developing a "herd behavior" ... and part of a mob people are capable of doing stuff that aren't thinkable. This is pretty scary since we've seen where this can lead.
deleted 17y ago
[deleted]
potatolicious 17y ago
" Yet respondents states that Canadians dislike America on a whole more since Obama took office than before, and that Canadians feel less safe visiting the US than before." Funny you mention that. I just took a train tonight from Vancouver Canada, to Seattle WA. The difference between the two places for night and day, and what you just said sums it up perfectly. When I got on the train on the Canadian side, the streets are bustling with activity, they're also clean. Homelessness is a problem, but overall the city is kept in good shape and business is booming. The train station is old, but kept in good repair, with many travellers milling about. I get off the train in Seattle and I see a crumbling train station that can't even afford to replace its light bulbs. The moment I walk out the door I am accosted by a group of homeless folk. I am yet accosted by more homeless folk as I make my way to the bus stop. As I ride the bus downtown the streets are deserted, there's homeless folk everywhere, people picking fights in streets... it's like a bad 80s dystopian movie come to life. It reminds me of Demolition Man without the open firefights in the streets. I've lived here for several months now and I do not feel safe walking these streets at night. Hell, sometimes I don't feel safe walking these streets in broad daylight. There's garbage everywhere, poverty at levels I could not even imagine before moving from Canada. There are shootings in my neighbourhood weekly. People I've mentioned this to blame me for living downtown, and imply that this comes with living in an urban centre. I call bullshit: I've lived downtown in 3 different Canadian cities, and none were anywhere this bad. One is also much larger and denser than this one. I've only been to a handful of other American cities - but if Seattle is the best you've got (and by national rankings it's pretty far up the list of good cities), you guys have a big, big, big problem.
- elblanco 17y ago
  Funny, you just described my exact experience going from Washington D.C. (one of the Murder leaders in the U.S.) and then later from NYC to Toronto. At least in D.C./NYC the homeless people can play music in the metro/subway. And you really don't find too many of them unless you go to the absolute crappiest part of town. In Toronto it was hard to walk more than a block or two in broad daylight without getting accosted by some drug addled homeless person wanting McDonald's money. And we're talking about places like around Queen's Park and the St. James Park area. I also call B.S. on your Seattle description (but not your Vancouver description which is a very nice city). Last time I was in downtown Seattle I think I saw maybe 2 or 3 homeless people. And my threat level was darn near 0 compared to an average day in D.C.
ajuc 17y ago
I live in Poland, so maybe I'm not the right person to criticize your NHS, but from what my friends who live in GB say (and I have a lot of them:)) NHS is worse even than our polish NFZ. And man, does NFZ suck. It may be because in Poland NFZ is "tax and corruption" funded, so it has more money than only tax funded NHS. But - in Poland you goes to first contact doctor with regular cold, or head pain, or normal flu, and you have 100% chance of seing the doctor, and he probably will right away prescribe you some antibiotics and send you to tthe blood tests. In GB, I've heard, the first contact doctor is nurse in reality most of the times. And he/she will just prescribe you the painkillers and send you away, till it's something more serious.
- gjm11 17y ago
  I live in the UK. When I get an appointment at my doctor's surgery, I see a doctor, not a nurse. (Unless it's for something that's done by nurses because their skills are more relevant than a doctor's, such as ear syringing.) I've only once been to the doctor and gone away thinking I'd been deprived of treatment or tests that I needed; on that occasion, there didn't turn out to be anything wrong with me, so I'm not going to complain too loudly. If your doctor is prescribing antibiotics for a cold or the flu, then s/he is incompetent and you should not be using this behaviour as evidence that your system is better than ours. Antibiotics do nothing for viral diseases like colds and flu. (Note: for some of my life I have had private medical insurance paid for by my employer. I believe I have made use of it twice. The first time, there turned out to be nothing wrong with me. The second time, I think I did benefit from the private treatment, but I'd actually probably have been best off if I had been seen by a nurse first rather than my doctor.)
  - ajuc 17y ago
    About flu - when you have really serious consequences after a flu it's because some bacteria get a "free ride" on your immunity system compromised by a virus, so antibiotics are sometimes good thing to take when having a flu. Still - I agree, doctors are prescribing them too often. Anyway - Polish emigrants (immigrants from you POV:)) are commonly returning to Poland to go to doctor, and that means it's in some ways better, so two way ticket is worth it. Sometimes they return to go to private doctors because private healthcare is much cheaper in Poland, but they also return to go to regular NFZ, and there must be a reason for that (maybe immigrants in GB are given worse treatment?). Anyway - http://polandian.home.pl/index.php/2008/09/24/english-patients-dying-for-treatment-in-poland/ http://polandian.home.pl/index.php/2008/09/24/english-patien...

chrischen 17y ago

What you dislike are probably all the bad things that come out of America. The bad things tend to stick in the mind and define things. Probably doesn't help that America's so big and diverse; there's a lot there to hate.

lupin_sansei 17y ago

> one of the best health care in the world Are you serious? Check the poor cancer survival rates in UK compared to the rest of world: "Since that time, cancer survival rates in England have been steadily improving for but we (Department of Health spokesman) accept that there is further work to do to reduce the gap between us and the rest of northern and western Europe and America." http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7510121.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7510121.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6955545.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6955545.stm

bilbo0s 17y ago
Uh . . . Had to call this one. Full Disclosure: Cancer Researcher here. I looked into how to analyze data over time to elicit better outcomes in a former life. Cancer is a hard problem, REALLY hard. Hematological Cancers as well, super hard. It is less than wise to judge a health care system by its ability to treat cancer. Literally, there are often times when a patient is being attended solely for the purposes of learning as much as we can before she dies. Thus, hopefully, getting us into a better position to help the next person. Let's try to confine the discussion to areas where you get the most bang for the buck. Primary care for instance. Further disclosure: I am American. Limited experience with using UK health system. So 'good' or 'bad' are assessments it would be out of place for me to make. This is simply a post to add context to the discussion.
- lupin_sansei 17y ago
  I think it's fair enough to ask how come a country that claims to have one of the best healthcare systems in the world (the UK) has such bad cancer survival rates?
  - pedrocr 17y ago
    From what I have seen about the UK system it is very much based on a cost-benefit tradeoff for treatments. Basically they do all the treatments that fit in the budget ordered by how many extra years of life expectancy each will add on average to the patient. Other countries have much less rational ways of going about it so it may very well be that on the specific case of cancer they are bellow standard just because the standard is irrationally high. Statistics about life expectancy at birth put them at number 25 slightly above the EU average and the US. They are still bellow a bunch of other European countries and of course life expectancy is a function of more than the health service itself but also the habits of the population in terms of diet, exercise, etc. Edit: According to this (random google search): http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_dea_fro_can-health-death-from-cancer http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_dea_fro_can-health-dea... The UK actually beats the US and most of Europe on the number of actual cancer deaths. So either its healthcare or its eating/exercise habits is doing enough about cancer prevention to make them perform well on general survival. Maybe they do perform badly once you have cancer though.
  - wisty 17y ago
    Cancer is what kills you if nothing else does. Either that or heart failure. If people are dying from TB or other easily treated (or prevented) diseases, then it's time to question the health system. Early detection is a huge factor in treatable cancers, and that might be social factors (Brits refusing to go for a checkup), rather than their health-care system. The biggest difference is between men and women; not between countries. Perhaps women are more likely to get their lumps checked?
  - Adam503 17y ago
    I think it fair to show the video of John Stewart destroying Betsy McCaughey, author of both the death panel lies and now this cancer survival rate lies. http://www.mediaite.com/tv/finally-jon-stewart-gives-betsy-mccaughey-a-polite-but-devastating-smackdown-on-the-daily-show/ http://www.mediaite.com/tv/finally-jon-stewart-gives-betsy-m... http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba596 http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba596 "...Two interesting things about this Daily Show interview with GOP health care demagogue Betsy McCaughey: (1) It was cut off in the middle, with Stewart directing viewers immediately after to the website, where the unedited second part would be waiting; and (2) Stewart patiently, politely, and firmly smacked down her exaggerations, misrepresentations and lies. I hope every other newscaster in America was watching...."
Adam503 17y ago
The author of that so-called "cancer survival rates" BS is Betsy McCaughey, the woman who invented the "death panels" nonsense. Here's link to webpage with video of John Stewart unloading on Betsy McCaughey for 2 entire segments of the Daily Show because of the "death panels" http://www.mediaite.com/tv/finally-jon-stewart-gives-betsy-mccaughey-a-polite-but-devastating-smackdown-on-the-daily-show/ http://www.mediaite.com/tv/finally-jon-stewart-gives-betsy-m...

bad_user 17y ago

That's because "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts". I also like many things about the US, but on the whole I don't like the US especially because of their foreign policies. Individuals are often very nice people (not just in the US), but in large groups their mentality can change drastically, developing a "herd behavior" ... and part of a mob people are capable of doing stuff that aren't thinkable. This is pretty scary since we've seen where this can lead.

deleted 17y ago

[deleted]

potatolicious 17y ago

" Yet respondents states that Canadians dislike America on a whole more since Obama took office than before, and that Canadians feel less safe visiting the US than before." Funny you mention that. I just took a train tonight from Vancouver Canada, to Seattle WA. The difference between the two places for night and day, and what you just said sums it up perfectly. When I got on the train on the Canadian side, the streets are bustling with activity, they're also clean. Homelessness is a problem, but overall the city is kept in good shape and business is booming. The train station is old, but kept in good repair, with many travellers milling about. I get off the train in Seattle and I see a crumbling train station that can't even afford to replace its light bulbs. The moment I walk out the door I am accosted by a group of homeless folk. I am yet accosted by more homeless folk as I make my way to the bus stop. As I ride the bus downtown the streets are deserted, there's homeless folk everywhere, people picking fights in streets... it's like a bad 80s dystopian movie come to life. It reminds me of Demolition Man without the open firefights in the streets. I've lived here for several months now and I do not feel safe walking these streets at night. Hell, sometimes I don't feel safe walking these streets in broad daylight. There's garbage everywhere, poverty at levels I could not even imagine before moving from Canada. There are shootings in my neighbourhood weekly. People I've mentioned this to blame me for living downtown, and imply that this comes with living in an urban centre. I call bullshit: I've lived downtown in 3 different Canadian cities, and none were anywhere this bad. One is also much larger and denser than this one. I've only been to a handful of other American cities - but if Seattle is the best you've got (and by national rankings it's pretty far up the list of good cities), you guys have a big, big, big problem.

elblanco 17y ago
Funny, you just described my exact experience going from Washington D.C. (one of the Murder leaders in the U.S.) and then later from NYC to Toronto. At least in D.C./NYC the homeless people can play music in the metro/subway. And you really don't find too many of them unless you go to the absolute crappiest part of town. In Toronto it was hard to walk more than a block or two in broad daylight without getting accosted by some drug addled homeless person wanting McDonald's money. And we're talking about places like around Queen's Park and the St. James Park area. I also call B.S. on your Seattle description (but not your Vancouver description which is a very nice city). Last time I was in downtown Seattle I think I saw maybe 2 or 3 homeless people. And my threat level was darn near 0 compared to an average day in D.C.

ajuc 17y ago

I live in Poland, so maybe I'm not the right person to criticize your NHS, but from what my friends who live in GB say (and I have a lot of them:)) NHS is worse even than our polish NFZ. And man, does NFZ suck. It may be because in Poland NFZ is "tax and corruption" funded, so it has more money than only tax funded NHS. But - in Poland you goes to first contact doctor with regular cold, or head pain, or normal flu, and you have 100% chance of seing the doctor, and he probably will right away prescribe you some antibiotics and send you to tthe blood tests. In GB, I've heard, the first contact doctor is nurse in reality most of the times. And he/she will just prescribe you the painkillers and send you away, till it's something more serious.

gjm11 17y ago
I live in the UK. When I get an appointment at my doctor's surgery, I see a doctor, not a nurse. (Unless it's for something that's done by nurses because their skills are more relevant than a doctor's, such as ear syringing.) I've only once been to the doctor and gone away thinking I'd been deprived of treatment or tests that I needed; on that occasion, there didn't turn out to be anything wrong with me, so I'm not going to complain too loudly. If your doctor is prescribing antibiotics for a cold or the flu, then s/he is incompetent and you should not be using this behaviour as evidence that your system is better than ours. Antibiotics do nothing for viral diseases like colds and flu. (Note: for some of my life I have had private medical insurance paid for by my employer. I believe I have made use of it twice. The first time, there turned out to be nothing wrong with me. The second time, I think I did benefit from the private treatment, but I'd actually probably have been best off if I had been seen by a nurse first rather than my doctor.)
- ajuc 17y ago
  About flu - when you have really serious consequences after a flu it's because some bacteria get a "free ride" on your immunity system compromised by a virus, so antibiotics are sometimes good thing to take when having a flu. Still - I agree, doctors are prescribing them too often. Anyway - Polish emigrants (immigrants from you POV:)) are commonly returning to Poland to go to doctor, and that means it's in some ways better, so two way ticket is worth it. Sometimes they return to go to private doctors because private healthcare is much cheaper in Poland, but they also return to go to regular NFZ, and there must be a reason for that (maybe immigrants in GB are given worse treatment?). Anyway - http://polandian.home.pl/index.php/2008/09/24/english-patients-dying-for-treatment-in-poland/ http://polandian.home.pl/index.php/2008/09/24/english-patien...