9 ms·

It's fascinating to see how even a nation with a free media can still have total buy-in to an entirely delusional self-image. Scary stuff.

noelchurchill 17y ago
Do you mean the US or Norway? Also, I'll note this article is from 2005, so I'm not sure how much these figures have changes since then.
- dschobel 17y ago
  Norway in this case. I'm not sure what America's delusion would be. I've been living here too long to tell. In any event, I think America's dirty laundry has been thoroughly scrutinized at this point. Every time I return to Europe most people are all too happy to remind me what precisely is wrong with America (income disparity, minority incarceration rates, healthcare, etc etc).
  - pedrocr 17y ago
    I agree that continuously pointing out those gets tiring fast (even though they are true). But then the US response tends to be "but on average we make more money". It's great that the US produces more (and can borrow more) and can buy more stuff, but that in itself does not guarantee quality of living. Diminishing returns on happiness of having more money kick in too soon for that to be a full argument.
electromagnetic 17y ago
It's a testament to the differences between perception and reality. The NHS in the UK regularly gets poor ratings, in fact they're regularly flat out abysmal on national satisfaction scales, yet all out-patient questionnaire's regularly return with satisfaction rates >90%. People perceive the NHS as this behemoth incapable of performing, but the reality is that it performs amazingly well and provides one of the best health care in the world. Perceptions of America suffer a similar thing, it's always direly low in many countries. A very recent poll in Canada showed that they like Obama, and that a vast majority like Americans as individuals. Yet respondents states that Canadians dislike America on a whole more since Obama took office than before, and that Canadians feel less safe visiting the US than before. Even I have recognized the cognitive dissonance of liking many Americans, liking the Presidency, I even like a vast amount of Americas culture, yet there's something ingrained in me that dislikes 'America'. Perhaps it's just the politics.
- chrischen 17y ago
  What you dislike are probably all the bad things that come out of America. The bad things tend to stick in the mind and define things. Probably doesn't help that America's so big and diverse; there's a lot there to hate.
- lupin_sansei 17y ago
  > one of the best health care in the world Are you serious? Check the poor cancer survival rates in UK compared to the rest of world: "Since that time, cancer survival rates in England have been steadily improving for but we (Department of Health spokesman) accept that there is further work to do to reduce the gap between us and the rest of northern and western Europe and America." http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7510121.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7510121.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6955545.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6955545.stm
  - bilbo0s 17y ago
    Uh . . . Had to call this one. Full Disclosure: Cancer Researcher here. I looked into how to analyze data over time to elicit better outcomes in a former life. Cancer is a hard problem, REALLY hard. Hematological Cancers as well, super hard. It is less than wise to judge a health care system by its ability to treat cancer. Literally, there are often times when a patient is being attended solely for the purposes of learning as much as we can before she dies. Thus, hopefully, getting us into a better position to help the next person. Let's try to confine the discussion to areas where you get the most bang for the buck. Primary care for instance. Further disclosure: I am American. Limited experience with using UK health system. So 'good' or 'bad' are assessments it would be out of place for me to make. This is simply a post to add context to the discussion.
    - lupin_sansei 17y ago
      I think it's fair enough to ask how come a country that claims to have one of the best healthcare systems in the world (the UK) has such bad cancer survival rates?
berntb 17y ago
If Norway is as Sweden/Finland, the food prices can be seen as a result of monopolists/oligopolies, Microsoft-style. Since the population still mostly read local media, they aren't aware of reality. And it is possible for the food chains to avoid getting the population enlightened using large ad accounts in the media. This has become a bit better in Sweden over the last decade, but e.g. Finland is still almost as expensive [edit: almost as expensive as Norway]. A fun data point is when the only non-ad supported tv in Sweden found a big scandal about remarking minced meat, almost certainly based on whistleblowers. Those whistleblowers have certainly talked to other media -- and to the controlling government agency for years... without effect. (I've never heard the term "regulatory capture" in Swedish, it seems our political masters don't want us to know. 1/2 :-) So yes, it is the media -- and lobbyists.
- Ras_ 17y ago
  We had a meat re-dating scandal in Finland too. I believe it was this summer. Omnipresent consensus-mentality unique to Scandinavia does sometimes prevent seeing the wood for the trees.
sbt 17y ago
I hope you're talking about the US.

noelchurchill 17y ago

Do you mean the US or Norway? Also, I'll note this article is from 2005, so I'm not sure how much these figures have changes since then.

dschobel 17y ago
Norway in this case. I'm not sure what America's delusion would be. I've been living here too long to tell. In any event, I think America's dirty laundry has been thoroughly scrutinized at this point. Every time I return to Europe most people are all too happy to remind me what precisely is wrong with America (income disparity, minority incarceration rates, healthcare, etc etc).
- pedrocr 17y ago
  I agree that continuously pointing out those gets tiring fast (even though they are true). But then the US response tends to be "but on average we make more money". It's great that the US produces more (and can borrow more) and can buy more stuff, but that in itself does not guarantee quality of living. Diminishing returns on happiness of having more money kick in too soon for that to be a full argument.

electromagnetic 17y ago

It's a testament to the differences between perception and reality. The NHS in the UK regularly gets poor ratings, in fact they're regularly flat out abysmal on national satisfaction scales, yet all out-patient questionnaire's regularly return with satisfaction rates >90%. People perceive the NHS as this behemoth incapable of performing, but the reality is that it performs amazingly well and provides one of the best health care in the world. Perceptions of America suffer a similar thing, it's always direly low in many countries. A very recent poll in Canada showed that they like Obama, and that a vast majority like Americans as individuals. Yet respondents states that Canadians dislike America on a whole more since Obama took office than before, and that Canadians feel less safe visiting the US than before. Even I have recognized the cognitive dissonance of liking many Americans, liking the Presidency, I even like a vast amount of Americas culture, yet there's something ingrained in me that dislikes 'America'. Perhaps it's just the politics.

chrischen 17y ago
What you dislike are probably all the bad things that come out of America. The bad things tend to stick in the mind and define things. Probably doesn't help that America's so big and diverse; there's a lot there to hate.
lupin_sansei 17y ago
> one of the best health care in the world Are you serious? Check the poor cancer survival rates in UK compared to the rest of world: "Since that time, cancer survival rates in England have been steadily improving for but we (Department of Health spokesman) accept that there is further work to do to reduce the gap between us and the rest of northern and western Europe and America." http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7510121.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7510121.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6955545.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6955545.stm
- bilbo0s 17y ago
  Uh . . . Had to call this one. Full Disclosure: Cancer Researcher here. I looked into how to analyze data over time to elicit better outcomes in a former life. Cancer is a hard problem, REALLY hard. Hematological Cancers as well, super hard. It is less than wise to judge a health care system by its ability to treat cancer. Literally, there are often times when a patient is being attended solely for the purposes of learning as much as we can before she dies. Thus, hopefully, getting us into a better position to help the next person. Let's try to confine the discussion to areas where you get the most bang for the buck. Primary care for instance. Further disclosure: I am American. Limited experience with using UK health system. So 'good' or 'bad' are assessments it would be out of place for me to make. This is simply a post to add context to the discussion.
  - lupin_sansei 17y ago
    I think it's fair enough to ask how come a country that claims to have one of the best healthcare systems in the world (the UK) has such bad cancer survival rates?

berntb 17y ago

If Norway is as Sweden/Finland, the food prices can be seen as a result of monopolists/oligopolies, Microsoft-style. Since the population still mostly read local media, they aren't aware of reality. And it is possible for the food chains to avoid getting the population enlightened using large ad accounts in the media. This has become a bit better in Sweden over the last decade, but e.g. Finland is still almost as expensive [edit: almost as expensive as Norway]. A fun data point is when the only non-ad supported tv in Sweden found a big scandal about remarking minced meat, almost certainly based on whistleblowers. Those whistleblowers have certainly talked to other media -- and to the controlling government agency for years... without effect. (I've never heard the term "regulatory capture" in Swedish, it seems our political masters don't want us to know. 1/2 :-) So yes, it is the media -- and lobbyists.

Ras_ 17y ago
We had a meat re-dating scandal in Finland too. I believe it was this summer. Omnipresent consensus-mentality unique to Scandinavia does sometimes prevent seeing the wood for the trees.

sbt 17y ago

I hope you're talking about the US.