6 ms·

How One High School Grad Studied Computer Science Debt-Free and Nabbed a $90k Job

41 points by Reddichu 12y ago

tapatio 12y ago
Children of retired military get a free college education so that's another way.
slam3s 12y ago
That's extremely impressive and goes along the line of experience over education.
calebhicks 12y ago
I love working in an industry where it's about what you can make or build on your own, not necessarily what your degree says. As a past junior high teacher, I'm really excited about the new ideas around practical education.
mateo411 12y ago
If he still has an opportunity to go to MIT, he should do that. It's great that he was able to get into the industry, but not many people have the opportunity to get an education at MIT. He will get to learn a lot of topics(Physics, EE, theoretical CS) that he wouldn't get exposed to in industry. He will probably make some of his lifetime friends there too. This network will be great for his social and professional life. ... and if he doesn't like it, he can go back and get another software developer job.
- chriogenix 12y ago
  I'd say it depends on what the costs are. If he has to rack up a TON of student loan debt it may not make much sense. You can make friends and social connections outside of school if you create the environment to do that. Its a lot easier in school but to avoid the traps of student loan debt its probably better to continue making/creating software if thats the end goal.
  - jim_greco 12y ago
    You don't have to rack up student loan debt at MIT or any of the other elite colleges in America. If your family can't afford it then you'll get a ton of grants from their endowments (and work study to supplement). It's the next level down in colleges, especially at liberal arts schools, where students get stuck with the bills.
    - jvrossb 12y ago
      Two of my closest friends went $100k+ into debt during their MIT undergrad graduating in 2013/2014. Not everyone gets covered by financial aid.
    - bradleyjg 12y ago
      That your parents could theoretically afford to pay for college doesn't mean that they will pay for it. The usual rule is that parents are not obligated to pay anything for their children over the age of 18. Only in some divorce cases is the situation otherwise. Before you mention emancipation or a dependency override, check the requirements, they are quite difficult.
    - s73v3r 12y ago
      He has a $90k/year job. Working for two years should give him enough cushion for a couple years there.
    - pdiddy 12y ago
      That may be the case now, but I graduated from Penn in 2006, and it was different story then (until about 2008 I think, with Princeton being the first to break the trend). Before that, a portion of your financial aid would be a loan directly from the school. My loan was subsequently sold to Citibank.
    - cma 12y ago
      For obvious reasons, schools don't make a distinction between family can't afford it and family won't afford it.
  - vonklaus 12y ago
- rpcope1 12y ago
  Agreed. One day app programming will get old, and if you want to do something different, and cool, especially if it involves mathematics or other difficult problems, that MIT degree is probably worth its weight in gold. Just getting to study with the best minds in many fields should be worth it...I guess I'm rather perplexed why anyone would turn down a chance to go study there as an undergraduate.
robotkilla 12y ago
He should still go to college or budget his time in such a way that he is able to study the things he would learn in college. This is coming from someone who has been in the industry for 12 years. I was homeschooled my entire life (until attending and dropping out of a community college). I thought that meant I was using correspondence courses but recently discovered from my mother that she just purchased text books and used those to educate me (save for 1 year during "grade school" and all of high school which was correspondence). As I said, I've been in the industry for 12 years and to this day I feel like I'm judged harsher in interviews. Also I'm not bragging about the homeschooling. I'm pretty ashamed of it.
- qmalxp 12y ago
  FWIW I regularly got destroyed by the homeschooled kids in math competitions in high school. That said, they were a weird bunch.
  - robotkilla 12y ago
    I was raised in an ultra religious hosehold that didn't allow me to associate with people from the "World". What do you mean by weird? This seems perfectly cromulent to me. endsarcasm
username3 12y ago
$90k with benefits?
diverightin63 12y ago
Make School takes 25% of your salary for two years. $45,000 is quite a price tag in my mind.
jim_greco 12y ago
He had to pay 25% of 2 years * $90k for this. This is a terrible trade off. MIT is incredibly generous with grants and work study programs. My girlfriend's family ended up paying ~$10k a year to go to one of the best schools in the world. And when you graduate you're looking at a job well north of six figures. Edit: It was actually ~6k for her. Class of '05.
- robotkilla 12y ago
  do they give grants to people in their 30s who already know how to program?
urda 12y ago
I obtained my B.S. and M.Eng in Computer Engineering & Computer Science also debt-free, and landed a 100k+ job straight out of college. I had to work my butt off with a few part-time gigs, had to do some smart saving, and cost managemen. I was able to do it without locking myself into anyone who wanted a cut of my pie. It's not impossible, but you have to be willing to commit to it.
seanflyon 12y ago
"Debt-Free" is a real stretch. > In contrast, students at Make School pay tuition through their internship earnings and 25% of their earnings in the first two years on the job. Coming out of a 6 month program owing $45k of future earnings sounds like debt to me.
- joshstrange 12y ago
  This is an easily overlooked point, that's about how much debt I had when I dropped out of college to go into software development full time. That said I would have probably picked Make School over college if given the option....
joshstrange 12y ago
As someone who dropped out of college to go into software development full time [0] I can relate quite a bit to this article. After graduating HS I went to college, that's just "what you did", I never considered another path until around my second year in college and even then didn't do anything until spring break my junior year when I worked a full 40hr week and loved it, my stress levels plummeted and I decided "Why wait?" I talked to my parents and my boss then went to the guidance office and dropped out. I'm still young (24) so I'm not going to say "Everything worked out perfectly" because I can't know that yet but so far it has. After I had 2 companies under my belt I was able to go just about wherever I wanted (That is anywhere that my skill set lined up with what they were looking for) because I've found employers care a lot more about what you can do/what you have done than a piece of paper from a university. I'm not ready to write off college completely but in it's current state I don't see it lasting much longer. The college bubble will burst if they don't start making changes. The world has changed but colleges have not, they no longer prepare student for the real world (if they ever did in the first place) and they don't guarantee a job. I love my job and what I do. I have no plans on finishing my college education, I might take community classes at some point but really I don't see the point. It doesn't affect me in my job searches and that money could be better used to pay off my college loans. I have older people tell me all the time that I should finish college but I think this is more because they grew up in a time when that worked not because they are actually right that I'll need it in the future. IMHO a degree only helps for your first-second job (if that) and after that no one cares. I think another important point is a number of people I am friends with or have talked with seem to think the end of college marks the end of learning. That couldn't be further from the truth, I learn every day and spend a vast majority of my free time working to get better at what I know and/or pick up new languages/skills. I didn't drop out to stop learning, I dropped out to start learning things that mattered. If I ever went back to school I don't know if I would even go for my CS degree but instead take classes on subjects that are not as easy (for me) to learn online or that I might just like the classroom atmosphere for like writing or history maybe. [0] http://joshstrange.com/why-i-canceled-my-college-subscription/ http://joshstrange.com/why-i-canceled-my-college-subscriptio...
USNetizen 12y ago
People confuse entry level programming with true computer science. I'm sorry, but there is no way a few months at some "hacker school" will replace a four year degree heavy in mathematics, theory and design. Schools like these are producing mediocre coders, at best. Which is fine if you just want to write a few small apps. But you REALLY need that CS experience and education to effectively work on large scale engineered systems. There is no way around it. On a side note, I also got a CS degree debt free. I served my country to get it. People want so much for nothing - there are no true shortcuts in life.
- ericcholis 12y ago
  > On a side note, I also got a CS degree debt free. I served my country to get it. People want so much for nothing - there are no true shortcuts in life. I'd argue that you paid a higher debt in some ways. Glad to see that it paid off though.
- woah 12y ago
  Actually, CS degrees have little to do with programming skill. I work with hacker school graduates that write cleaner more maintainable code faster than others with CS degrees and 20 years of experience. EDIT: Actually, the fact that you mention "large scale engineered systems" is interesting. Generally, I have found large, monolithic, tightly coupled systems to be very unmaintainable. "Building a small app" (or a bunch of them), along with in-house libraries tends to be the way to go if you want maintainability. "Building a large scale engineered system" might actually be a red flag when it comes to code reusability and quality.
  - USNetizen 12y ago
    That is your social proof. Try passing one of these hacker school grads off in an engineered environment at Google scale - they fall apart quickly. You proved my point, though. Programming is only one small aspect of computer science. Engineering, mathematics and theory is the biggest part which you can't get at a 6 week school.
    - 12y ago
sogen 12y ago
So sad to see that being debt-free causes a headline.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
rhodysurf 12y ago
Except the 45k he owes back to the school is about the same amount my engineering degree cost me total.. That's not exactly debt-free
Bouncingsoul1 12y ago
How I studied CS Debt-Free: I live in Europe. End.
atmosx 12y ago
I know more about computers than most guys I know with a CS degree. Then again I know physicists (Google has a huge number of them) that know more about computers than I will ever learn. I don't think that a CS degree is all that important. It's the self-drive that makes the difference IMHO. Then of course, having a background helps a lot, but in todays world there is little that you can't learn by yourself given the right amount of (free) time and effort.

41 points by Reddichu 12y ago

tapatio 12y ago

Children of retired military get a free college education so that's another way.

slam3s 12y ago

That's extremely impressive and goes along the line of experience over education.

calebhicks 12y ago

I love working in an industry where it's about what you can make or build on your own, not necessarily what your degree says. As a past junior high teacher, I'm really excited about the new ideas around practical education.

mateo411 12y ago

If he still has an opportunity to go to MIT, he should do that. It's great that he was able to get into the industry, but not many people have the opportunity to get an education at MIT. He will get to learn a lot of topics(Physics, EE, theoretical CS) that he wouldn't get exposed to in industry. He will probably make some of his lifetime friends there too. This network will be great for his social and professional life. ... and if he doesn't like it, he can go back and get another software developer job.

chriogenix 12y ago
I'd say it depends on what the costs are. If he has to rack up a TON of student loan debt it may not make much sense. You can make friends and social connections outside of school if you create the environment to do that. Its a lot easier in school but to avoid the traps of student loan debt its probably better to continue making/creating software if thats the end goal.
- jim_greco 12y ago
  You don't have to rack up student loan debt at MIT or any of the other elite colleges in America. If your family can't afford it then you'll get a ton of grants from their endowments (and work study to supplement). It's the next level down in colleges, especially at liberal arts schools, where students get stuck with the bills.
  - jvrossb 12y ago
    Two of my closest friends went $100k+ into debt during their MIT undergrad graduating in 2013/2014. Not everyone gets covered by financial aid.
  - bradleyjg 12y ago
    That your parents could theoretically afford to pay for college doesn't mean that they will pay for it. The usual rule is that parents are not obligated to pay anything for their children over the age of 18. Only in some divorce cases is the situation otherwise. Before you mention emancipation or a dependency override, check the requirements, they are quite difficult.
  - s73v3r 12y ago
    He has a $90k/year job. Working for two years should give him enough cushion for a couple years there.
  - pdiddy 12y ago
    That may be the case now, but I graduated from Penn in 2006, and it was different story then (until about 2008 I think, with Princeton being the first to break the trend). Before that, a portion of your financial aid would be a loan directly from the school. My loan was subsequently sold to Citibank.
  - cma 12y ago
    For obvious reasons, schools don't make a distinction between family can't afford it and family won't afford it.
- vonklaus 12y ago
rpcope1 12y ago
Agreed. One day app programming will get old, and if you want to do something different, and cool, especially if it involves mathematics or other difficult problems, that MIT degree is probably worth its weight in gold. Just getting to study with the best minds in many fields should be worth it...I guess I'm rather perplexed why anyone would turn down a chance to go study there as an undergraduate.

robotkilla 12y ago

He should still go to college or budget his time in such a way that he is able to study the things he would learn in college. This is coming from someone who has been in the industry for 12 years. I was homeschooled my entire life (until attending and dropping out of a community college). I thought that meant I was using correspondence courses but recently discovered from my mother that she just purchased text books and used those to educate me (save for 1 year during "grade school" and all of high school which was correspondence). As I said, I've been in the industry for 12 years and to this day I feel like I'm judged harsher in interviews. Also I'm not bragging about the homeschooling. I'm pretty ashamed of it.

qmalxp 12y ago
FWIW I regularly got destroyed by the homeschooled kids in math competitions in high school. That said, they were a weird bunch.
- robotkilla 12y ago
  I was raised in an ultra religious hosehold that didn't allow me to associate with people from the "World". What do you mean by weird? This seems perfectly cromulent to me. endsarcasm

username3 12y ago

$90k with benefits?

diverightin63 12y ago

Make School takes 25% of your salary for two years. $45,000 is quite a price tag in my mind.

jim_greco 12y ago

He had to pay 25% of 2 years * $90k for this. This is a terrible trade off. MIT is incredibly generous with grants and work study programs. My girlfriend's family ended up paying ~$10k a year to go to one of the best schools in the world. And when you graduate you're looking at a job well north of six figures. Edit: It was actually ~6k for her. Class of '05.

robotkilla 12y ago
do they give grants to people in their 30s who already know how to program?

urda 12y ago

I obtained my B.S. and M.Eng in Computer Engineering & Computer Science also debt-free, and landed a 100k+ job straight out of college. I had to work my butt off with a few part-time gigs, had to do some smart saving, and cost managemen. I was able to do it without locking myself into anyone who wanted a cut of my pie. It's not impossible, but you have to be willing to commit to it.

seanflyon 12y ago

"Debt-Free" is a real stretch. > In contrast, students at Make School pay tuition through their internship earnings and 25% of their earnings in the first two years on the job. Coming out of a 6 month program owing $45k of future earnings sounds like debt to me.

joshstrange 12y ago
This is an easily overlooked point, that's about how much debt I had when I dropped out of college to go into software development full time. That said I would have probably picked Make School over college if given the option....

joshstrange 12y ago

As someone who dropped out of college to go into software development full time [0] I can relate quite a bit to this article. After graduating HS I went to college, that's just "what you did", I never considered another path until around my second year in college and even then didn't do anything until spring break my junior year when I worked a full 40hr week and loved it, my stress levels plummeted and I decided "Why wait?" I talked to my parents and my boss then went to the guidance office and dropped out. I'm still young (24) so I'm not going to say "Everything worked out perfectly" because I can't know that yet but so far it has. After I had 2 companies under my belt I was able to go just about wherever I wanted (That is anywhere that my skill set lined up with what they were looking for) because I've found employers care a lot more about what you can do/what you have done than a piece of paper from a university. I'm not ready to write off college completely but in it's current state I don't see it lasting much longer. The college bubble will burst if they don't start making changes. The world has changed but colleges have not, they no longer prepare student for the real world (if they ever did in the first place) and they don't guarantee a job. I love my job and what I do. I have no plans on finishing my college education, I might take community classes at some point but really I don't see the point. It doesn't affect me in my job searches and that money could be better used to pay off my college loans. I have older people tell me all the time that I should finish college but I think this is more because they grew up in a time when that worked not because they are actually right that I'll need it in the future. IMHO a degree only helps for your first-second job (if that) and after that no one cares. I think another important point is a number of people I am friends with or have talked with seem to think the end of college marks the end of learning. That couldn't be further from the truth, I learn every day and spend a vast majority of my free time working to get better at what I know and/or pick up new languages/skills. I didn't drop out to stop learning, I dropped out to start learning things that mattered. If I ever went back to school I don't know if I would even go for my CS degree but instead take classes on subjects that are not as easy (for me) to learn online or that I might just like the classroom atmosphere for like writing or history maybe. [0] http://joshstrange.com/why-i-canceled-my-college-subscription/ http://joshstrange.com/why-i-canceled-my-college-subscriptio...

USNetizen 12y ago

People confuse entry level programming with true computer science. I'm sorry, but there is no way a few months at some "hacker school" will replace a four year degree heavy in mathematics, theory and design. Schools like these are producing mediocre coders, at best. Which is fine if you just want to write a few small apps. But you REALLY need that CS experience and education to effectively work on large scale engineered systems. There is no way around it. On a side note, I also got a CS degree debt free. I served my country to get it. People want so much for nothing - there are no true shortcuts in life.

ericcholis 12y ago
> On a side note, I also got a CS degree debt free. I served my country to get it. People want so much for nothing - there are no true shortcuts in life. I'd argue that you paid a higher debt in some ways. Glad to see that it paid off though.
woah 12y ago
Actually, CS degrees have little to do with programming skill. I work with hacker school graduates that write cleaner more maintainable code faster than others with CS degrees and 20 years of experience. EDIT: Actually, the fact that you mention "large scale engineered systems" is interesting. Generally, I have found large, monolithic, tightly coupled systems to be very unmaintainable. "Building a small app" (or a bunch of them), along with in-house libraries tends to be the way to go if you want maintainability. "Building a large scale engineered system" might actually be a red flag when it comes to code reusability and quality.
- USNetizen 12y ago
  That is your social proof. Try passing one of these hacker school grads off in an engineered environment at Google scale - they fall apart quickly. You proved my point, though. Programming is only one small aspect of computer science. Engineering, mathematics and theory is the biggest part which you can't get at a 6 week school.
  - 12y ago

sogen 12y ago

So sad to see that being debt-free causes a headline.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

rhodysurf 12y ago

Except the 45k he owes back to the school is about the same amount my engineering degree cost me total.. That's not exactly debt-free

Bouncingsoul1 12y ago

How I studied CS Debt-Free: I live in Europe. End.

atmosx 12y ago

I know more about computers than most guys I know with a CS degree. Then again I know physicists (Google has a huge number of them) that know more about computers than I will ever learn. I don't think that a CS degree is all that important. It's the self-drive that makes the difference IMHO. Then of course, having a background helps a lot, but in todays world there is little that you can't learn by yourself given the right amount of (free) time and effort.