6 ms·

This is flat out wrong. If a group of people start a hacking or gardening social subculture, then it is "owned" by them. If people start a goth subculture, othe

This is flat out wrong. If a group of people start a hacking or gardening social subculture, then it is "owned" by them. If people start a goth subculture, others who join subsequently don't have a right to say "I don't like all the make up and candles and satantic stuff. If you want to start another club and call yourselves by a different name, that's fine. But you don't 'own' being goth." If someone doesn't like the mood and tone of a given culture, they can start their own club or practice the activity without taking part in the social culture. They don't have to right to demand that everyone else change because their sensibilities are offended. If the members of a culture want to change to be more inclusive, then that's their decision. It has to be internal, not forced on them by pushy new members.

Cthulhu_ 12y ago
I think the difference there that goth is a subculture, while tech and software development is a job. Sure, there's also various subcultures in the software development industry, but there isn't one big subculture there. There's the abrasive brogrammers, there's the sensitive political correctness advocates, there's the quiet nerd that just wants to be left alone, there's the hiring manager looking for new employees, etcetera. All of those people are different, unlike goths which is a more clearly defined subculture. Maybe the analogy would be a goth at an alternative conference, where you have emos, punk, neon-hair cyberpunk people, SM enthousiasts, etcetera. What's acceptable for one subculture (say, smoking in public, to use the South Park stereotype) may not be appropriate for the other.
- 67726e 12y ago
  Software development is a job, but the original post wasn't talking software development. It's talking about being a nerd. Sure, I have nerd "creds" and could easily fit in with any stereotypical group, but I don't claim any nerd status nor appear like it to the outside observer. I not gonna tell my group of friends to stop playing DnD or making shitty jokes no matter how embarrassing it is in public, and I expect the same courtesy. The problem I see is that folks seem to have this idea that they have a right to never feel offended. Well tough shit, you don't. You shouldn't be harassed, but if you don't find a group of folks ideals to your liking, well that's just life. Again, we're not talking professional lives here, but that of a subculture. Unfortunately, the problem is an overlap of folks who can't maintain a professional demeanor.
- TeMPOraL 12y ago
  > I think the difference there that goth is a subculture, while tech and software development is a job. And here I think is the crux of the problem; it's what the article was about. Tech became mainstream, and attracted people who look at it as a job. From the point of view of us native nerds, we became colonized and are being pushed back from the thing we built as our little place in the universe where we would feel safe from the society calling us "weirdos". It's not just a clash of cultures, it feels like an invasion - contemporary tech industry is not the place it used to be. As a native tech nerd I honestly feel threatened by it.
  - brennannovak 12y ago
    Damn well said!!! Thanks ;)
  - cmsj 12y ago
    We wanted to make tech be ever more awesome, we told everyone we knew how cool it is, regardless of whether they were interested. We asked for this, whether we like it or not :)
    - TeMPOraL 12y ago
      > We asked for this, whether we like it or not :) Yes, unfortunately we did. We dreamed for an amazing world, but it's not what we got when the world joined in.
      - cmsj 12y ago
        I think we got an amazing world :) We democratised technology. We built a global IP network-of-networks and used it to connect a UNIX-like kernel in everyone's pocket, in a way that serves and delights them. I distinctly remember a large family gathering in summer 2010 where I expected the usual pattern of sitting in a corner of the garden with the handful of other techie cousins, discussing whatever was new in our world. Instead, I had people coming and asking me if I was holding an iPad, and if they could play with it. That was a profound moment for me, it told me that we'd really achieved something special - a form of cutting edge technology that wasn't something non-techies ignored until they were forced to use it for work or banking or some other mundane task. Instead, they were drawn to it with the same fascination and wonder that I have always been. For that moment, everyone present, was a geek. I loved it. Have some of the complex technical things that I once held as "mine" become dulled by the need to serve the masses? Of course. If that annoys me from a philosophical or technical perspective, my best choice is to forge ahead again and find a niche equivalent, or build something for myself. In many cases, I welcome it, because something that I once had to invest time and effort into, is now smoothed over and shifts into the background, making time for me to focus on something else.
- some_furry 12y ago
  > I think the difference there that goth is a subculture, while tech and software development is a job. To you, it's a job. To me, it's one of my many hobbies that I enjoy doing. It just turns out that there's more demand in the business world for software engineering than there is for admiring artwork of anthropomorphic creatures or swinging swords around.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
- angersock 12y ago
  Thirding what my sibling commenters are saying, just for the additional data point. The article was about hackers, the set of outcasts that self-identify based on rough consensus and running code and merit. The article wasn't about hackers, the buzzword that is good to have on your meetup and LinkedIn profile. Such is the extent of the appropriation of hacker culture--there is this weird notion that workplace professionalism (whatever that is) somehow now has to be embraced by people claiming to be hackers. It's bullshit.
  - spiritplumber 12y ago
    That's why I moved to "maker" if I absolutely have to pick a one-word label. So it goes.
    - TeMPOraL 12y ago
      I was and still am involved in the "maker culture" thing and from what I see, the term "maker" is already dead as well. Media found it, it became a popular label, and now everyone who knows which side of duct tape is sticky is a "maker". And don't get me started about the events. What do startups showcasing their newest commercial 3D printers have to do with "making" again?
      - spiritplumber 12y ago
        http://www.theonion.com/articles/us-dept-of-retro-warns-we-may-be-running-out-of-pa,873/ http://www.theonion.com/articles/us-dept-of-retro-warns-we-m... Appropriate onion article if you change some nouns :) Can't disagree with you, sadly.
  - cmsj 12y ago
    In general: If you're an outcast and you don't ostracise yourself from a community that has grown large, you are not really an outcast. In detail: Hackers can't complain that their movement has grown and developed facets they don't like. Hackers are mischievous, hackers are smart, hackers are always ahead of the pack discovering and inventing cool new things. Therefore, hackers, by their very self-definition, can't be called hackers anymore, they must have moved on elsewhere and developed new labels for themselves. If they haven't, and have become complacent and jaded with newcomers, they have ceased to be true hackers. (I use "they", because one should never self-apply the term hacker :)
throwaway9324 12y ago
The people who claim "hacking" today didn't start it. In fact "hacking", to the extent it ever had a common definition, has changed to accommodate the people that are more interested in being part of some culture rather than having an interest in technology.
cmsj 12y ago
I think it's substantially different if that subculture operates in an open environment that encourages participation. If you want to have a private, invite-only community that has strict rules of abrasive (or other) behaviour, that is also possible. If, however, you run around the world telling everyone how amazing your culture is, how it's producing things that will change all our lives, how it's great for getting a well paying career, etc, etc, all of which the hacking culture has done, then you have nobody to blame when people start paying attention. We asked for all of this, and we reap the rewards, good and bad.
Argorak 12y ago
I recommend you to attend a meeting like the Wave Gotic Treffen in Leipzig. You'll see exactly those things happen and it's called "generation change". My other pet project for a long time was moderating a metal board - what do you think happened when people came up with Nu Metal? It was an outrage.

Cthulhu_ 12y ago

I think the difference there that goth is a subculture, while tech and software development is a job. Sure, there's also various subcultures in the software development industry, but there isn't one big subculture there. There's the abrasive brogrammers, there's the sensitive political correctness advocates, there's the quiet nerd that just wants to be left alone, there's the hiring manager looking for new employees, etcetera. All of those people are different, unlike goths which is a more clearly defined subculture. Maybe the analogy would be a goth at an alternative conference, where you have emos, punk, neon-hair cyberpunk people, SM enthousiasts, etcetera. What's acceptable for one subculture (say, smoking in public, to use the South Park stereotype) may not be appropriate for the other.

67726e 12y ago
Software development is a job, but the original post wasn't talking software development. It's talking about being a nerd. Sure, I have nerd "creds" and could easily fit in with any stereotypical group, but I don't claim any nerd status nor appear like it to the outside observer. I not gonna tell my group of friends to stop playing DnD or making shitty jokes no matter how embarrassing it is in public, and I expect the same courtesy. The problem I see is that folks seem to have this idea that they have a right to never feel offended. Well tough shit, you don't. You shouldn't be harassed, but if you don't find a group of folks ideals to your liking, well that's just life. Again, we're not talking professional lives here, but that of a subculture. Unfortunately, the problem is an overlap of folks who can't maintain a professional demeanor.
TeMPOraL 12y ago
> I think the difference there that goth is a subculture, while tech and software development is a job. And here I think is the crux of the problem; it's what the article was about. Tech became mainstream, and attracted people who look at it as a job. From the point of view of us native nerds, we became colonized and are being pushed back from the thing we built as our little place in the universe where we would feel safe from the society calling us "weirdos". It's not just a clash of cultures, it feels like an invasion - contemporary tech industry is not the place it used to be. As a native tech nerd I honestly feel threatened by it.
- brennannovak 12y ago
  Damn well said!!! Thanks ;)
- cmsj 12y ago
  We wanted to make tech be ever more awesome, we told everyone we knew how cool it is, regardless of whether they were interested. We asked for this, whether we like it or not :)
  - TeMPOraL 12y ago
    > We asked for this, whether we like it or not :) Yes, unfortunately we did. We dreamed for an amazing world, but it's not what we got when the world joined in.
    - cmsj 12y ago
      I think we got an amazing world :) We democratised technology. We built a global IP network-of-networks and used it to connect a UNIX-like kernel in everyone's pocket, in a way that serves and delights them. I distinctly remember a large family gathering in summer 2010 where I expected the usual pattern of sitting in a corner of the garden with the handful of other techie cousins, discussing whatever was new in our world. Instead, I had people coming and asking me if I was holding an iPad, and if they could play with it. That was a profound moment for me, it told me that we'd really achieved something special - a form of cutting edge technology that wasn't something non-techies ignored until they were forced to use it for work or banking or some other mundane task. Instead, they were drawn to it with the same fascination and wonder that I have always been. For that moment, everyone present, was a geek. I loved it. Have some of the complex technical things that I once held as "mine" become dulled by the need to serve the masses? Of course. If that annoys me from a philosophical or technical perspective, my best choice is to forge ahead again and find a niche equivalent, or build something for myself. In many cases, I welcome it, because something that I once had to invest time and effort into, is now smoothed over and shifts into the background, making time for me to focus on something else.
some_furry 12y ago
> I think the difference there that goth is a subculture, while tech and software development is a job. To you, it's a job. To me, it's one of my many hobbies that I enjoy doing. It just turns out that there's more demand in the business world for software engineering than there is for admiring artwork of anthropomorphic creatures or swinging swords around.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
angersock 12y ago
Thirding what my sibling commenters are saying, just for the additional data point. The article was about hackers, the set of outcasts that self-identify based on rough consensus and running code and merit. The article wasn't about hackers, the buzzword that is good to have on your meetup and LinkedIn profile. Such is the extent of the appropriation of hacker culture--there is this weird notion that workplace professionalism (whatever that is) somehow now has to be embraced by people claiming to be hackers. It's bullshit.
- spiritplumber 12y ago
  That's why I moved to "maker" if I absolutely have to pick a one-word label. So it goes.
  - TeMPOraL 12y ago
    I was and still am involved in the "maker culture" thing and from what I see, the term "maker" is already dead as well. Media found it, it became a popular label, and now everyone who knows which side of duct tape is sticky is a "maker". And don't get me started about the events. What do startups showcasing their newest commercial 3D printers have to do with "making" again?
    - spiritplumber 12y ago
      http://www.theonion.com/articles/us-dept-of-retro-warns-we-may-be-running-out-of-pa,873/ http://www.theonion.com/articles/us-dept-of-retro-warns-we-m... Appropriate onion article if you change some nouns :) Can't disagree with you, sadly.
- cmsj 12y ago
  In general: If you're an outcast and you don't ostracise yourself from a community that has grown large, you are not really an outcast. In detail: Hackers can't complain that their movement has grown and developed facets they don't like. Hackers are mischievous, hackers are smart, hackers are always ahead of the pack discovering and inventing cool new things. Therefore, hackers, by their very self-definition, can't be called hackers anymore, they must have moved on elsewhere and developed new labels for themselves. If they haven't, and have become complacent and jaded with newcomers, they have ceased to be true hackers. (I use "they", because one should never self-apply the term hacker :)

throwaway9324 12y ago

The people who claim "hacking" today didn't start it. In fact "hacking", to the extent it ever had a common definition, has changed to accommodate the people that are more interested in being part of some culture rather than having an interest in technology.

cmsj 12y ago

I think it's substantially different if that subculture operates in an open environment that encourages participation. If you want to have a private, invite-only community that has strict rules of abrasive (or other) behaviour, that is also possible. If, however, you run around the world telling everyone how amazing your culture is, how it's producing things that will change all our lives, how it's great for getting a well paying career, etc, etc, all of which the hacking culture has done, then you have nobody to blame when people start paying attention. We asked for all of this, and we reap the rewards, good and bad.

Argorak 12y ago

I recommend you to attend a meeting like the Wave Gotic Treffen in Leipzig. You'll see exactly those things happen and it's called "generation change". My other pet project for a long time was moderating a metal board - what do you think happened when people came up with Nu Metal? It was an outrage.