> I'd say that thoroughly substantiates my claim that harassment is almost never illegal. Or it's drastically under-reported. Other stats bear this out, googl

> I'd say that thoroughly substantiates my claim that harassment is almost never illegal. Or it's drastically under-reported. Other stats bear this out, google around (or look elsewhere in this thread). > They can only if they're inappropriate and unwanted... and so frequent or severe enough. Which honest complements cannot be. I believe Vic Gundotera was honest when he was sexually harassing Kelly Ellis via compliments. Why is honesty a defense? Intent is irrelevant in harassment; it's the environment the harasser creates and the feelings the victim feels. I think you're misusing the term "honest compliments". If I were to tell a woman, "hey your legs are very attractive", that's an honest compliment. It's also sexual harassment if I keep doing it. I think when you say "honest compliment", you mean "hey nice shoes". The problem is, which parts of a woman's appearance can you compliment without being sexual? Avoid her body? "Hey nice skirt" is still pretty sexual. "Hey nice hose", "hey nice necklace", hey nice blouse", etc. can all draw attention to parts of a woman's body. Tone can also be a factor. "Hey nice hair" said in one tone can seem like what you would call an "honest compliment". "Hey nice hair" with a certain tone and closeness can imply, "I'd like to run my fingers through it". 1 in 4 women experiences workplace sexual harassment. It's very possible they associate comments about their appearance with that experience. They shouldn't have to opt-out of your compliments. How can you avoid all of tihs? Stop complimenting a woman's appearance. > I'd ask you to point out a single case of proven sexual harassment based on someone simply paying complements to a co-worker, but it's probably not worth your time. You should just google around for legal advice regarding comments on appearance being sexual harassment. It's absolutely sexual harassment if it is frequent or severe enough. I just googled "workplace appearance comments harassing", and basically all the results were good. > You're overgeneralizing here. In most workplaces physical appearance is absolutely relevant to some degree. Only if it becomes a problem. And I'm overgeneralizing because that should be the default approach. Don't comment on a woman's appearance unless necessary. > Interaction with humans is a large part of most workplaces, and conversing with, building rapport, trust, shared understanding and common goals is a major component of most workplaces. Which is all why you should be professional and appropriate, because in most workplaces you have to interact with others, and women shouldn't suffer these kinds of "compliments" just to have a job. The things you listed are critical to creating a positive work environment. When women are constantly judged by and harassed based on their appearance, that positive work environment dissipates. > The damage in sterilizing the workplace of this type of camaraderie far outweighs to potential for harm. This is hyperbole. There are already tons of topics completely unsuitable for the workplace. Adding one more doesn't suddenly make the workplace "sterile". Feel free to talk about crazy things that happened to you, or food that you've eaten, or sports, or any one of a million things humans experience. > Huh, what?! That's not what I said at all, please re-read it. I think something just shifted in your tone, and I'm sorry to see it go in that direction. Please try to remain charitable in light of the limited bandwidth of the communication medium. I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say, probably because I was trying to be too cute while saying it. I'm trying to assume the best, but this logic is the kind of logic street harassers use to justify their behavior. "She wouldn't dress that way unless she wanted compliments", or "it would be an insult not to holler at that dress". I'm not saying you're a bad person. I'm saying, from what you've been writing here, that your behavior is problematic. I appreciate that the context is different, but I don't think that you appreciate that the difference in context matters very little. > Please keep ad hominem out of it, because I'm actually trying to have a productive conversation here. I wasn't specifically talking about you. I'm saying that belief indicates a strong sense of entitlement. If you're of that belief, then I think you're entitled. I don't know how to correct someone's behavior without saying their behavior is bad. > I'm not complaining about how onerous it would be for me to stop complementing someone. What I think we do need to protect is our ability to be human and humane to one another, to empathize with one another, and to have the option of connecting on a remotely personal level to people we spend the majority of our days with. I think this happens naturally and copacetically 99.99% of the time. 1 in 4 women experiences sexual harassment in the workplace. Often they experience it multiple times, especially women in low-wage jobs. In my workplace, we don't comment on the appearance of women, and we still manage to have a blast. For Christmas, we went to an Irish pub together and swapped hilarious stories. Someone told stories about competing in a triathlon, someone else told stories from when they were in boot camp. I wouldn't call us friends per se, but I would say we're very collegial. Your assertion that banning comments on women's appearances would sterilize the workplace is simply not true. So don't worry about it :). Instead, worry about how millions and millions of women are sexually harassed every day. I really think that issue is far, far bigger.