5 ms·

Hey job seekers. I'm level 45 in starfighter with a power VI blaster in C++ and IX in Python. $100 to get you to level 30, x1.5 per level above that (though obv

by sfink 12y ago

Hey job seekers. I'm level 45 in starfighter with a power VI blaster in C++ and IX in Python. $100 to get you to level 30, x1.5 per level above that (though obviously I can't get you above 45, but I know a guy so I can subcontract up to 52.) You just have to set up a port forward from your machine and I'll take care of the rest. Contact info is in my profile. Don't get suckered into using a bot. They may be cheaper in the short run but you know you're going to get lifebanned. My prices are nothing compared to your future earnings.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
olivercreashe 12y ago
I like this idea, but I also like the one proposed here http://ortask.com/a-better-way-to-hire-developers-and-tester.. http://ortask.com/a-better-way-to-hire-developers-and-tester.... I fear that starfighter will overlook goood candidates simply because they are not good at gaming, which makes the second approach by ortask more interesting and maybe balanced.
- tptacek 12y ago
  It's a legit concern, but remember, we use the word "gaming" in the loosest sense here.
- kosoy 12y ago
  The "overlooking" problem comes inherently with most heuristics. There should just be an option to forgo this system of measurement and use another one.
- dlss 12y ago
  As long as starfighter isn't the only way technical recruiting happens, I think that's not really a problem. There will always be lots of ways to demonstrate talent :)
- thisisit 12y ago
  Not that I completely understand the process for Starfighter. But what are the chances of something like this happening? http://www.wired.com/2012/07/how-a-startup-used-a-5000-contest-to-raise-millions/ http://www.wired.com/2012/07/how-a-startup-used-a-5000-conte...
woah 12y ago
I'm not sure that cheating on this would be unethical. Programming is about getting things done. As a hiring metric, nothing can beat open source. The open source portfolio really is kind of a golden standard. It is real work that you have done, that has (hopefully) advanced the commons, because you love programming and have something unique to add to the world. Some fake video game programming may indicate something, but is simply not as strong an indicator. Who are you going to hire- TJ Holowaychuk, who wrote Express, or the guy who placed 3rd on TopCoder in 2012?
- smikhanov 12y ago
  What is Express?
  - sytringy05 12y ago
    express.js
  - mryan 12y ago
    http://expressjs.com/ http://expressjs.com/
- shubhamjain 12y ago
  I think it is wrong to except everyone to contribute to open-source and I have seen that even the very smart programmers are not interested in making personal projects or contributing to existing ones. Honestly, after mind-taxing eight hour job, you want to go home, watch a movie, read a book or some other relaxing activity. Not to mention that for people with families, it is nearly impossible to find the time to contribute. The rockstar-ninjas with thousand-starred repos on Github are very rare.
  - kylebrown 12y ago
    > Honestly, after mind-taxing eight hour job, you want to go home, watch a movie, read a book or some other relaxing activity. Then this person probably wouldn't find much time to do CTF challenges, either.
tlrobinson 12y ago
I don't think you understand their business. Contingency recruiters' fees can reach 30% or more of an engineer's first year of salary, which could work out to $50k or more per engineer. You can bet they will be looking closely at each candidate's solutions, plus automated code plagiarism detection is pretty easy. It also depends on the type of problem. If you just need one weird trick to pass the level (e.x. use this SQL injection) then that's easy to game. If you have to write a bunch of distributed systems code (e.x. Stripe's last CTF) that's a lot harder to cheat.
- byEngineer 12y ago
  Somehow they never do. They'd rather pay $50k to someone else than do it on their own.
- mania 12y ago
  They won't look closely. As you seem to see yourself, they would rather spend $50k per engineer to a 3rd party service than perform proper recruiting by themselves in house.
  - tlrobinson 12y ago
    You seem to be trolling, but to clarify I was suggesting Starfighter would be looking closely before referring candidates to clients. Their reputation depends on the quality of the candidates they refer.
    - mercurial 12y ago
      I'm not sure why you're being downvoted. Obviously, if they reference Danny the Word programmer as a ninja rockstar to a Fortune 500 on a regular basis, their business is going to take a nosedive.
- sfink 12y ago
  Sorry, I don't see the connection. Yes, a successful candidate is worth a lot of money to Kalzumeus, and they are incented to make sure that the solutions are real and not plagiarized. But that salary is worth even more to that successful candidate, and hence they would be willing to pay handsomely for someone to write customized, non-plagiarized solutions for them if it gets them in. (The mythical level 45 mentioned would cost $44K. If I'd done the math, I probably would've made it more. I guess the level 52 would be nearly $750K...) For now, I'm assuming they have good protection against automated solutions. If it were just a matter of detecting plagiarism, you're right that it would be trivial. (Heck, I even cofounded a company that did code plagiarism detection, so I have a very good sense for how easy or hard it is. tl;dr: it's straightforward to defeat a plagiarism detector if you are sufficiently motivated and knowledgeable and willing to put in some time to go through all the code, but people/companies who plagiarize are typically none of those.) Detecting whether someone else is doing the candidate's work, on the other hand, is impossible. Unless you bend the rules. Fortunately, the rules seem pretty pliable to me -- when a candidate arrives at a company's interview, spot-check them on their understanding of a few of "their" trickier solutions. It's a logistical nuisance, to be sure.
TeMPOraL 12y ago
Accepting that offer sounds like a great way to get yourself hacked.
- sfink 12y ago
  Meh. The port-forwarding bit is probably unnecessary. And yes, there's a good chance you'll end up hacked and still poor, but there's still a decent chance that you'll end up with a large salary and not hacked. I suspect the black market is adequately efficient at self-policing when there's money involved. Though that's where my scam would be most likely to fall apart. Recruiters typically only get their cut if the candidate doesn't get fired in the first N months. So if they purely cheated their way in, then the hiring company is only out a couple months of useless work. (Which could be very costly, to be sure, but at least they don't have to fork over the $50K. And there are many other reasons why a new employee doesn't pan out.)
  - TeMPOraL 12y ago
    > I suspect the black market is adequately efficient at self-policing when there's money involved. I suspect that too, and this is something I'd really want to read more about - how does self-policing work in black markets and how effective is it. If anyone has any good sources, I'd be grateful for sharing. RE fraud prevention, there were two interesting lines in the Starfighter's announcement: > We assess for skill first, passively as players play our games and then actively. Our founders — talented technologists — personally reconstruct candidates’ solutions and evaluate them. > We follow-up with players to ask if they have any interest in a no-obligation chat about career options. If they’re interested, we have an honest geek-to-geek conversation. I suspect that between the first and the second there will be a place for Starfighter team to verify that the candidate has the skills his account shows. After all, if they want to maintain the access "deep into the hiring funnel", they have a strong incentive not to send bad candidates and waste their clients' time.
nathan_long 12y ago
Oh awesome, all I have to do is pay you a bunch of money, then I can get a job I'm not qualified for, fail, get fired, and maybe have my reputation ruined? :) The scam you've described may be possible, but it's not very rational for someone to use it, IMHO.

by sfink 12y ago

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

olivercreashe 12y ago

I like this idea, but I also like the one proposed here http://ortask.com/a-better-way-to-hire-developers-and-tester.. http://ortask.com/a-better-way-to-hire-developers-and-tester.... I fear that starfighter will overlook goood candidates simply because they are not good at gaming, which makes the second approach by ortask more interesting and maybe balanced.

tptacek 12y ago
It's a legit concern, but remember, we use the word "gaming" in the loosest sense here.
kosoy 12y ago
The "overlooking" problem comes inherently with most heuristics. There should just be an option to forgo this system of measurement and use another one.
dlss 12y ago
As long as starfighter isn't the only way technical recruiting happens, I think that's not really a problem. There will always be lots of ways to demonstrate talent :)
thisisit 12y ago
Not that I completely understand the process for Starfighter. But what are the chances of something like this happening? http://www.wired.com/2012/07/how-a-startup-used-a-5000-contest-to-raise-millions/ http://www.wired.com/2012/07/how-a-startup-used-a-5000-conte...

woah 12y ago

I'm not sure that cheating on this would be unethical. Programming is about getting things done. As a hiring metric, nothing can beat open source. The open source portfolio really is kind of a golden standard. It is real work that you have done, that has (hopefully) advanced the commons, because you love programming and have something unique to add to the world. Some fake video game programming may indicate something, but is simply not as strong an indicator. Who are you going to hire- TJ Holowaychuk, who wrote Express, or the guy who placed 3rd on TopCoder in 2012?

smikhanov 12y ago
What is Express?
- sytringy05 12y ago
  express.js
- mryan 12y ago
  http://expressjs.com/ http://expressjs.com/
shubhamjain 12y ago
I think it is wrong to except everyone to contribute to open-source and I have seen that even the very smart programmers are not interested in making personal projects or contributing to existing ones. Honestly, after mind-taxing eight hour job, you want to go home, watch a movie, read a book or some other relaxing activity. Not to mention that for people with families, it is nearly impossible to find the time to contribute. The rockstar-ninjas with thousand-starred repos on Github are very rare.
- kylebrown 12y ago
  > Honestly, after mind-taxing eight hour job, you want to go home, watch a movie, read a book or some other relaxing activity. Then this person probably wouldn't find much time to do CTF challenges, either.

tlrobinson 12y ago

I don't think you understand their business. Contingency recruiters' fees can reach 30% or more of an engineer's first year of salary, which could work out to $50k or more per engineer. You can bet they will be looking closely at each candidate's solutions, plus automated code plagiarism detection is pretty easy. It also depends on the type of problem. If you just need one weird trick to pass the level (e.x. use this SQL injection) then that's easy to game. If you have to write a bunch of distributed systems code (e.x. Stripe's last CTF) that's a lot harder to cheat.

byEngineer 12y ago
Somehow they never do. They'd rather pay $50k to someone else than do it on their own.
mania 12y ago
They won't look closely. As you seem to see yourself, they would rather spend $50k per engineer to a 3rd party service than perform proper recruiting by themselves in house.
- tlrobinson 12y ago
  You seem to be trolling, but to clarify I was suggesting Starfighter would be looking closely before referring candidates to clients. Their reputation depends on the quality of the candidates they refer.
  - mercurial 12y ago
    I'm not sure why you're being downvoted. Obviously, if they reference Danny the Word programmer as a ninja rockstar to a Fortune 500 on a regular basis, their business is going to take a nosedive.
sfink 12y ago
Sorry, I don't see the connection. Yes, a successful candidate is worth a lot of money to Kalzumeus, and they are incented to make sure that the solutions are real and not plagiarized. But that salary is worth even more to that successful candidate, and hence they would be willing to pay handsomely for someone to write customized, non-plagiarized solutions for them if it gets them in. (The mythical level 45 mentioned would cost $44K. If I'd done the math, I probably would've made it more. I guess the level 52 would be nearly $750K...) For now, I'm assuming they have good protection against automated solutions. If it were just a matter of detecting plagiarism, you're right that it would be trivial. (Heck, I even cofounded a company that did code plagiarism detection, so I have a very good sense for how easy or hard it is. tl;dr: it's straightforward to defeat a plagiarism detector if you are sufficiently motivated and knowledgeable and willing to put in some time to go through all the code, but people/companies who plagiarize are typically none of those.) Detecting whether someone else is doing the candidate's work, on the other hand, is impossible. Unless you bend the rules. Fortunately, the rules seem pretty pliable to me -- when a candidate arrives at a company's interview, spot-check them on their understanding of a few of "their" trickier solutions. It's a logistical nuisance, to be sure.

TeMPOraL 12y ago

Accepting that offer sounds like a great way to get yourself hacked.

sfink 12y ago
Meh. The port-forwarding bit is probably unnecessary. And yes, there's a good chance you'll end up hacked and still poor, but there's still a decent chance that you'll end up with a large salary and not hacked. I suspect the black market is adequately efficient at self-policing when there's money involved. Though that's where my scam would be most likely to fall apart. Recruiters typically only get their cut if the candidate doesn't get fired in the first N months. So if they purely cheated their way in, then the hiring company is only out a couple months of useless work. (Which could be very costly, to be sure, but at least they don't have to fork over the $50K. And there are many other reasons why a new employee doesn't pan out.)
- TeMPOraL 12y ago
  > I suspect the black market is adequately efficient at self-policing when there's money involved. I suspect that too, and this is something I'd really want to read more about - how does self-policing work in black markets and how effective is it. If anyone has any good sources, I'd be grateful for sharing. RE fraud prevention, there were two interesting lines in the Starfighter's announcement: > We assess for skill first, passively as players play our games and then actively. Our founders — talented technologists — personally reconstruct candidates’ solutions and evaluate them. > We follow-up with players to ask if they have any interest in a no-obligation chat about career options. If they’re interested, we have an honest geek-to-geek conversation. I suspect that between the first and the second there will be a place for Starfighter team to verify that the candidate has the skills his account shows. After all, if they want to maintain the access "deep into the hiring funnel", they have a strong incentive not to send bad candidates and waste their clients' time.

nathan_long 12y ago

Oh awesome, all I have to do is pay you a bunch of money, then I can get a job I'm not qualified for, fail, get fired, and maybe have my reputation ruined? :) The scam you've described may be possible, but it's not very rational for someone to use it, IMHO.