3 ms·

This whole interview process is broken. Even with this mind of ctf game, one should not be expected to race through peers with different kinds of tools. Develo

by fsniper 12y ago

This whole interview process is broken. Even with this mind of ctf game, one should not be expected to race through peers with different kinds of tools. Developers are expected to build resumes at work via daily routines, then at home via github, hackerrank, side projects. System administrators are expected to do daily system administration routine, know OSes, tools, cloud/iaas/paas providers inside out and code side projects and build a coding portfolio. With years of experience, one expects to be respected and not lose time on games, tests, unwanted side projects. Interview process is built towards young gals/guys.

tptacek 12y ago
What race/competition dynamics we are going to have are for the benefit of the participants. Microcorruption has been running for over a year; the first finisher finished a few days after we released it. I'd have paid very close attention to someone who finished Microcorruption yesterday, if I was still hiring for Matasano.
- fsniper 12y ago
  I understand what you are trying to do, but that's another competition in the roots. We already have too many. GitHub, BitBucket, HackerRank, TrueAbility, Certifications, Education, Jobs. It's becoming of a norm that if someone puts more personal time to show off, they are better engineers. Also that's another wrong position in IT. You can not have personal life. I do not want to be a marketeer, I'm an engineer. If you ever ask any of us around here, perhaps most will tell you a scary story about the competition and the time constraints the competition brings on people. Eventually with every racing/gaming/ranking tool out there it's becoming to be harder to get a good position in IT without investing in more and more personal time.
  - kasey_junk 12y ago
    I suspect that the Starfighter crew's answer around this is twofold: 1) Of course there will always be other ways to get technical work. You needn't feel compelled to use their product unless you think the time input is worth the reward. 2) If they haven't made the process fun, that is something you want to spend your valuable free time on, they have failed (at least in acquiring you as a product).
    - fsniper 12y ago
      Perhaps you are right about the answer. But It is still another knot on the rope. The next company expecting me do some obscure online automated coding test will need to pair me with an engineer inside.
      - tptacek 12y ago
        That's not how this works. We don't host challenges for other companies. We're an outreach project. It costs companies money to find people through us; skipping us and going right to employers saves them money. I don't expect many employers to ask candidates to go to us to make them more expensive. And, by the way, if you don't have a great resume and you're looking to work in a field directly related to the CTF we're running: making you more expensive is exactly what we're going to do. :)
        fsniper 12y ago
        So will there be profile scores? Will any company or person able to see how a participant is doing in StarFighter? If it is so, companies will use it as a differentiating factor in the hiring process. And that's what I'm talking about. By the way nowadays shiny resumes are not considered relevant. It's the bottom line of screening. I have a great resume in my country and I am expensive here. But it would not matter for any SF startup.
        kasey_junk 12y ago
        I think you are misunderstanding the incentives that are setup via the Starfighter business model. You are thinking of them on the QUALIFICATION side of the pipeline. That is, you have entered a companies hiring pipeline and they are using Starfighter to determine whether you should stay in it or not. The Starfighter team is trying to change the ACQUISITION side of the pipeline. They are stepping in to the space where traditional recruiters feed applicants into the pipeline. In marketing terms they are generating leads. Their value proposition to the employer is that the leads they generate will be of higher caliber than the traditional contingent recruiters. Their value proposition to you is that Starfighter is a) fun and/or b) at least better than dealing with a traditional recruiter. Your Starfighter experience replaces your resume/cover letter that gets you into the pipeline. Not your ability to navigate the pipeline once you get into it. If your resume/traditional recruiters/responding to web ads/word of mouth is more valuable than Starfighter CTFs fun - hassle + employer payoff than you are quite simply not a good fit for the Starfigher Recruitment agency. Just like you wouldn't be a good fit for a DBA centric recruitment agency if you weren't a DBA. If I'm disappointed about anything in the announcement, its that it is obvious to me anyway, that they are NOT trying to replace the current qualification steps in a hiring pipeline. Because to me, getting rid of that time wasting/unproductive process is the big value add, not shoveling more devs into the top of the pipeline (management at my company may feel differently).

by fsniper 12y ago

tptacek 12y ago

What race/competition dynamics we are going to have are for the benefit of the participants. Microcorruption has been running for over a year; the first finisher finished a few days after we released it. I'd have paid very close attention to someone who finished Microcorruption yesterday, if I was still hiring for Matasano.

fsniper 12y ago
I understand what you are trying to do, but that's another competition in the roots. We already have too many. GitHub, BitBucket, HackerRank, TrueAbility, Certifications, Education, Jobs. It's becoming of a norm that if someone puts more personal time to show off, they are better engineers. Also that's another wrong position in IT. You can not have personal life. I do not want to be a marketeer, I'm an engineer. If you ever ask any of us around here, perhaps most will tell you a scary story about the competition and the time constraints the competition brings on people. Eventually with every racing/gaming/ranking tool out there it's becoming to be harder to get a good position in IT without investing in more and more personal time.
- kasey_junk 12y ago
  I suspect that the Starfighter crew's answer around this is twofold: 1) Of course there will always be other ways to get technical work. You needn't feel compelled to use their product unless you think the time input is worth the reward. 2) If they haven't made the process fun, that is something you want to spend your valuable free time on, they have failed (at least in acquiring you as a product).
  - fsniper 12y ago
    Perhaps you are right about the answer. But It is still another knot on the rope. The next company expecting me do some obscure online automated coding test will need to pair me with an engineer inside.
    - tptacek 12y ago
      That's not how this works. We don't host challenges for other companies. We're an outreach project. It costs companies money to find people through us; skipping us and going right to employers saves them money. I don't expect many employers to ask candidates to go to us to make them more expensive. And, by the way, if you don't have a great resume and you're looking to work in a field directly related to the CTF we're running: making you more expensive is exactly what we're going to do. :)
      - fsniper 12y ago
        So will there be profile scores? Will any company or person able to see how a participant is doing in StarFighter? If it is so, companies will use it as a differentiating factor in the hiring process. And that's what I'm talking about. By the way nowadays shiny resumes are not considered relevant. It's the bottom line of screening. I have a great resume in my country and I am expensive here. But it would not matter for any SF startup.
        kasey_junk 12y ago
        I think you are misunderstanding the incentives that are setup via the Starfighter business model. You are thinking of them on the QUALIFICATION side of the pipeline. That is, you have entered a companies hiring pipeline and they are using Starfighter to determine whether you should stay in it or not. The Starfighter team is trying to change the ACQUISITION side of the pipeline. They are stepping in to the space where traditional recruiters feed applicants into the pipeline. In marketing terms they are generating leads. Their value proposition to the employer is that the leads they generate will be of higher caliber than the traditional contingent recruiters. Their value proposition to you is that Starfighter is a) fun and/or b) at least better than dealing with a traditional recruiter. Your Starfighter experience replaces your resume/cover letter that gets you into the pipeline. Not your ability to navigate the pipeline once you get into it. If your resume/traditional recruiters/responding to web ads/word of mouth is more valuable than Starfighter CTFs fun - hassle + employer payoff than you are quite simply not a good fit for the Starfigher Recruitment agency. Just like you wouldn't be a good fit for a DBA centric recruitment agency if you weren't a DBA. If I'm disappointed about anything in the announcement, its that it is obvious to me anyway, that they are NOT trying to replace the current qualification steps in a hiring pipeline. Because to me, getting rid of that time wasting/unproductive process is the big value add, not shoveling more devs into the top of the pipeline (management at my company may feel differently).