18 ms·

Because you can't really tell how well software is working when looking at the device edge-on, and that's apparently the way Apple looks at them most of the tim

by SiVal 12y ago

Because you can't really tell how well software is working when looking at the device edge-on, and that's apparently the way Apple looks at them most of the time. I mean this more metaphorically than literally, but I'm so tired of complaints about the ridiculously primitive Finder being met with, "the edge of the iMac now appears even thinner, now that we've repositioned formerly convenient connectors and such into a bulge behind the screen. Surely you agree that the appearance of a thin edge is more important than usability of Finder or connectors." Or a yearning for more battery life, or even just a swappable battery? "The bottom of our laptop looks better than the top of theirs!" Or, why is the text on my iPhone suddenly so low contrast and hard to read? "Surely you agree that having a fresh look matters more than readability! Look, the icons are flat. Don't you realize how critically important that is?" Or, the apps get worse, not better, over time, and you always have to ask yourself whether each free OS upgrade is worth the risk of unreliable WiFi. Can't you work on this, Apple? "Thinner!" Apple used to emphasize software quality and usability. Now, it's all about the style, about how the edges look in fashion magazines. And yet the rest of the industry is so fragmented that they don't do any better in terms of usability. The frustration is that unlike them, Apple could do so much better, but ever since the candy-colored iMacs, they've decided that Fernando (Billy Crystal's old SNL character) was right. When it comes to look and feel, "It's better to look good than to feel good!"

state 12y ago
I think this is good thinking. It might also boil down to something as simple as "Jony Ive". He strikes me as truly a designer of physical things by nature.
darcyparker 12y ago
I agree - I'd love to see them re-think Finder. I just don't grok Finder... I do most of my work in the terminal and occasionally midnight commander or nerdtree inside vim. I tried free ones like muCommander but don't like the overhead of starting a java app... Similarly I don't want the overhead of running an X server so I can use an X based file manager. And I don't want to buy some 3rd party File Manager. We should get a great File Manager OOTB with OS X. I don't see why Apple can't implement a modern File Manager... At least give us something comparable to Windows Explorer... or take the time to make a video to convince us Finder is actually good for those who may not grok it. And a swappable battery would be wonderful but I can live without it.
- dasil003 12y ago
  I think the problem is that file management does not fit Apple's vision for the future. It is simply too abstract a task with too many use cases to really design something simple and elegant in the spirit of how Apple normally approaches problems. There are obviously a million ways to make the Finder better than what it is, but what Apple really wants to do is kill it entirely. Of course they're nowhere near being able to kill it, so instead they hold it at arm's length as a necessary evil. In the meantime, if, like me, you are stuck on OS X because it's the best GUI for a *nix now and in the foreseeable future, I suggest buying PathFinder (http://www.cocoatech.com/pathfinder/ http://www.cocoatech.com/pathfinder/) to bridge the gap. It's certainly a much better tool than Finder or Windows Explorer.
  - otakucode 12y ago
    I think you are probably the most correct of all the posts here. Apple wants a system where you can't access the filesystem period, at least not by default. Seeing that there is a filesystem underneath the system is, to their eye, as appealing as those devices popular in the 90s with transparent shells that let you see the electronics. Their ideal future is basically the iPhone. They even said as much in their unveiling of the new Macbook. They said the phone/tablet will be your primary computing device and a laptop or desktop will just be an accessory (eventually literally, as mobile chips get more powerful and Intel continues to nerf desktop offerings).
- zer0defex 12y ago
  Give Xtrafinder a look: https://www.trankynam.com/xtrafinder/ https://www.trankynam.com/xtrafinder/ In my experience, trying to replace core OS apps with 3rd-party replacements just never quite works 100% in all situations. My preference is more toward apps that augment/improve the core OS apps. Xtrafinder is of this type, adding additional functionality to Finder, rather than being a wholly separate app like TotalFinder.
  - entrode 12y ago
    Have used TotalFinder for a couple of years, just tried XtraFinder. Found that the side-by-side view and shortcuts for sliding in the pinnable Finder just didn't work, even after a couple of uninstall/reboot/install/reboot cycles. Has some nice features and seems like it should cover what I want from TotalFinder, but just isn't there yet. I also don't understand your sentiment for preferring it over TotalFinder... they both feel and act like augmentations. I got the impression that XtraFinder would work alongside the normal finder, but that's not the case.
nsxwolf 12y ago
Curious - what do Finder complainers consider the gold standard of file browsers that Finder should aspire to be? I do most of my file management at the command line so I don't experience the pain of Finder very often, and I've generally been able to get Finder to do what I want without much fuss. Windows Explorer is, to me, a painful experience (but its 1980s DOS command line is so much worse) I've found the various Linux desktop file browsers I've dabbled with clunky but serviceable, but again, I'm a command line guy. Just wondering what is out there that the Finder haters would prefer.
- etrautmann 12y ago
  features from pathfinder come to mind: 1) somewhere to copy the file path without opening a "get info" dialog 2) tree-based view instead of the HORRIBLE thin columns that never auto-size to display filenames in a way you can view 3) ability to open command line from whatever folder you're in I could go on and on - these are all trivial to implement and they never ever happen. number 2 is one of the most irritating of all.
  - ohhmaagawd 12y ago
    There are apps for features 1,3.... I use copy path app myself
    - etrautmann 12y ago
      I know, but why should this have to be a tack-on. These are things that can drive anyone crazy and have for the last six versions of OS X. They're willing to completely overhaul interfaces elsewhere (iTunes, iOS), why not add some unambiguously useful features here?
  - hultner 12y ago
    I used to be a Path Finder guy but since I moved almost all my file management to the terminal I haven't even installed Path Finder since I switched to a Retina MacBook Pro in late 2013. But I could definitely agree as a power- or semi poweruser Path Finder seems much more sensible but to be honest my mother understands Finder so much better than Path Finder and The Explorer on Windows. For me OS X probably peaked around Snow Leopard but there's probably a lot of novice users that like the new features and iOS-users that switched to OS X probably likes the similarities in App Store, Launchpad, etc. Sadly it feels that Apple is giving us powerusers less and less love.
pikachu_is_cool 12y ago
What kind of pleb prefers Finder over bash?
- thrillgore 12y ago
  What kind of pleb prefers bash over zsh?
  - pikachu_is_cool 12y ago
    Gah, you got my ass there.
xlayn 12y ago
Right in so many points: "Now, it's all about the style": that's right, it's an accessory, it's the long awaited iPad pro + keyboard, a glorified browser for your social network, check photos and look chick and trending. Why are we here? People have decided with their pockets, Apple is now the biggest company in the history of humanity. Don't get me wrong, Apple has done a lot of stuff right, the amount of design and engineering behind the original iPhone it's incredible, and yes maybe a lot of the technology already existed but they polished the combined products until they got something that worked in such a nice fashion; that's the "magic" behind their products but from there is downhill. iPad: bigger iphone. iPad mini: mini- bigger iphone. MacBook Air: let's trade some some performance and take away the capability of upgrade the machine in a pursuit of a more thinner machine. MacBook: let's take the least powerful CPU from Intel (the reason behind the no-fan design"), cripple the typing experience, take away all upgrade-ability, cripple the semantics of touch from the track pad, take away all the ports.... WTF.. charge for the hub... and make it more expensive..... But I think the problem is not Apple but the people buying their products and how they use them. It's a super glorified version of "I belong to the better group" psychology. now that I type all this... it could make some sense to start looking all this not as a computer... or apple as a computer and software company but a boutique selling accessories. I would love to tell you that thinkpads still make sense but the "no leds" and "screw keyboard" may prove me wrong.
- akshatpradhan 12y ago
  >upgrade the machine in a pursuit of a more thinner machine Why is hardware upgradeability so important? What's the harm in just upgrading to the next device?
  - xlayn 12y ago
    Programmed obsolescence... The analogy is, buy a new car if your spare tire is flat
    - kolinko 12y ago
      A better analogy would be: "buy a new car if you want a new engine or nicer seats". Which is what most people actually do.
nilkn 12y ago
Apple's slowly becoming a fashion company. I'm being only slightly facetious. I'm not an Apple hater despite saying that. If anything, I usually prefer Apple products over the competitors, and I've used iMacs or Macbooks for years now. But, between the $17k gold Apple Watch and the recent updates to the Macbook Air and iPad lines, it seems clear to me where Tim Cook is taking the company. And I don't think Apple as a fashion company is even a bad thing, it's just a transformation that some will like and others will resent.
- lips 12y ago
  Ditto, pretty much. Though I think it's not so much "fashion," with all of it's pure aesthetic implications, as I think it is an emphasis on visual polish, visceral satisfaction, vertical integration, and novelty - all at the expense of many things "power user" oriented. It's a path to expansion, buy-in, and pundit-fodder, and apparently a tremendous market cap. I've known for about 5 years that I have some variety of Linux in my future, it's just a matter of time. Though I will likely always have need for Adobe products professionally. And as regards the Finder, well... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FTFF https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FTFF My perspective: Apple IIe -> Mac -> IIcx -> PowerMac -> XP - OS X.
  - digi_owl 12y ago
    Careful, there is a big undercurrent in the Linux ecosystem towards creating a OSX carbon copy...
jmspring 12y ago
Software - iTunes and the crap like it has become has been the canary for Apple software. Never better, only worse and more bloated.
ArkyBeagle 12y ago
Ummmmmmm... anorexia? :)
madaxe_again 12y ago
Yup. The MacBook Pro I use today is likely to be my last Apple machine - I've been using their kit for decades - but they've stopped being about software, or hardware. They're all about brand. This was ok when they had technically excellent products to talk about, but their products are today mediocre, arrogant, and speak of a new, stupider, wealthier target audience. Fucking gold!
- eloisant 12y ago
  I think gold is mostly for China: http://www.businessinsider.com/the-gold-iphone-5s-sold-out-instantly-in-hong-kong-and-china-2013-9?IR=T http://www.businessinsider.com/the-gold-iphone-5s-sold-out-i...
laacz 12y ago
I believe there is distinction between Apple as a hardware company and Apple as a software company. First part works extremely well while latter one - not so much. I would not mix them together.
julian_t 12y ago
WiFi... every upgrade I've done since Lion has caused me pain. Upgrade, and WiFi stops working reliably. Last time was on a virtually new MacBook Pro, upgrading to Mavericks, and it took me two weeks to get it working again. So I'm kind of wary of the 'wireless everything', which would be great if the wireless was working solidly in the first place.
onhopwood 12y ago
I agree with you 100% , I still use my 2011 15 inch Macbook pro. I haven't upgraded the OS in almost 2 years.

by SiVal 12y ago

state 12y ago

I think this is good thinking. It might also boil down to something as simple as "Jony Ive". He strikes me as truly a designer of physical things by nature.

darcyparker 12y ago

I agree - I'd love to see them re-think Finder. I just don't grok Finder... I do most of my work in the terminal and occasionally midnight commander or nerdtree inside vim. I tried free ones like muCommander but don't like the overhead of starting a java app... Similarly I don't want the overhead of running an X server so I can use an X based file manager. And I don't want to buy some 3rd party File Manager. We should get a great File Manager OOTB with OS X. I don't see why Apple can't implement a modern File Manager... At least give us something comparable to Windows Explorer... or take the time to make a video to convince us Finder is actually good for those who may not grok it. And a swappable battery would be wonderful but I can live without it.

dasil003 12y ago
I think the problem is that file management does not fit Apple's vision for the future. It is simply too abstract a task with too many use cases to really design something simple and elegant in the spirit of how Apple normally approaches problems. There are obviously a million ways to make the Finder better than what it is, but what Apple really wants to do is kill it entirely. Of course they're nowhere near being able to kill it, so instead they hold it at arm's length as a necessary evil. In the meantime, if, like me, you are stuck on OS X because it's the best GUI for a *nix now and in the foreseeable future, I suggest buying PathFinder (http://www.cocoatech.com/pathfinder/ http://www.cocoatech.com/pathfinder/) to bridge the gap. It's certainly a much better tool than Finder or Windows Explorer.
- otakucode 12y ago
  I think you are probably the most correct of all the posts here. Apple wants a system where you can't access the filesystem period, at least not by default. Seeing that there is a filesystem underneath the system is, to their eye, as appealing as those devices popular in the 90s with transparent shells that let you see the electronics. Their ideal future is basically the iPhone. They even said as much in their unveiling of the new Macbook. They said the phone/tablet will be your primary computing device and a laptop or desktop will just be an accessory (eventually literally, as mobile chips get more powerful and Intel continues to nerf desktop offerings).
zer0defex 12y ago
Give Xtrafinder a look: https://www.trankynam.com/xtrafinder/ https://www.trankynam.com/xtrafinder/ In my experience, trying to replace core OS apps with 3rd-party replacements just never quite works 100% in all situations. My preference is more toward apps that augment/improve the core OS apps. Xtrafinder is of this type, adding additional functionality to Finder, rather than being a wholly separate app like TotalFinder.
- entrode 12y ago
  Have used TotalFinder for a couple of years, just tried XtraFinder. Found that the side-by-side view and shortcuts for sliding in the pinnable Finder just didn't work, even after a couple of uninstall/reboot/install/reboot cycles. Has some nice features and seems like it should cover what I want from TotalFinder, but just isn't there yet. I also don't understand your sentiment for preferring it over TotalFinder... they both feel and act like augmentations. I got the impression that XtraFinder would work alongside the normal finder, but that's not the case.

nsxwolf 12y ago

Curious - what do Finder complainers consider the gold standard of file browsers that Finder should aspire to be? I do most of my file management at the command line so I don't experience the pain of Finder very often, and I've generally been able to get Finder to do what I want without much fuss. Windows Explorer is, to me, a painful experience (but its 1980s DOS command line is so much worse) I've found the various Linux desktop file browsers I've dabbled with clunky but serviceable, but again, I'm a command line guy. Just wondering what is out there that the Finder haters would prefer.

etrautmann 12y ago
features from pathfinder come to mind: 1) somewhere to copy the file path without opening a "get info" dialog 2) tree-based view instead of the HORRIBLE thin columns that never auto-size to display filenames in a way you can view 3) ability to open command line from whatever folder you're in I could go on and on - these are all trivial to implement and they never ever happen. number 2 is one of the most irritating of all.
- ohhmaagawd 12y ago
  There are apps for features 1,3.... I use copy path app myself
  - etrautmann 12y ago
    I know, but why should this have to be a tack-on. These are things that can drive anyone crazy and have for the last six versions of OS X. They're willing to completely overhaul interfaces elsewhere (iTunes, iOS), why not add some unambiguously useful features here?
- hultner 12y ago
  I used to be a Path Finder guy but since I moved almost all my file management to the terminal I haven't even installed Path Finder since I switched to a Retina MacBook Pro in late 2013. But I could definitely agree as a power- or semi poweruser Path Finder seems much more sensible but to be honest my mother understands Finder so much better than Path Finder and The Explorer on Windows. For me OS X probably peaked around Snow Leopard but there's probably a lot of novice users that like the new features and iOS-users that switched to OS X probably likes the similarities in App Store, Launchpad, etc. Sadly it feels that Apple is giving us powerusers less and less love.

pikachu_is_cool 12y ago

What kind of pleb prefers Finder over bash?

thrillgore 12y ago
What kind of pleb prefers bash over zsh?
- pikachu_is_cool 12y ago
  Gah, you got my ass there.

xlayn 12y ago

Right in so many points: "Now, it's all about the style": that's right, it's an accessory, it's the long awaited iPad pro + keyboard, a glorified browser for your social network, check photos and look chick and trending. Why are we here? People have decided with their pockets, Apple is now the biggest company in the history of humanity. Don't get me wrong, Apple has done a lot of stuff right, the amount of design and engineering behind the original iPhone it's incredible, and yes maybe a lot of the technology already existed but they polished the combined products until they got something that worked in such a nice fashion; that's the "magic" behind their products but from there is downhill. iPad: bigger iphone. iPad mini: mini- bigger iphone. MacBook Air: let's trade some some performance and take away the capability of upgrade the machine in a pursuit of a more thinner machine. MacBook: let's take the least powerful CPU from Intel (the reason behind the no-fan design"), cripple the typing experience, take away all upgrade-ability, cripple the semantics of touch from the track pad, take away all the ports.... WTF.. charge for the hub... and make it more expensive..... But I think the problem is not Apple but the people buying their products and how they use them. It's a super glorified version of "I belong to the better group" psychology. now that I type all this... it could make some sense to start looking all this not as a computer... or apple as a computer and software company but a boutique selling accessories. I would love to tell you that thinkpads still make sense but the "no leds" and "screw keyboard" may prove me wrong.

akshatpradhan 12y ago
>upgrade the machine in a pursuit of a more thinner machine Why is hardware upgradeability so important? What's the harm in just upgrading to the next device?
- xlayn 12y ago
  Programmed obsolescence... The analogy is, buy a new car if your spare tire is flat
  - kolinko 12y ago
    A better analogy would be: "buy a new car if you want a new engine or nicer seats". Which is what most people actually do.

nilkn 12y ago

Apple's slowly becoming a fashion company. I'm being only slightly facetious. I'm not an Apple hater despite saying that. If anything, I usually prefer Apple products over the competitors, and I've used iMacs or Macbooks for years now. But, between the $17k gold Apple Watch and the recent updates to the Macbook Air and iPad lines, it seems clear to me where Tim Cook is taking the company. And I don't think Apple as a fashion company is even a bad thing, it's just a transformation that some will like and others will resent.

lips 12y ago
Ditto, pretty much. Though I think it's not so much "fashion," with all of it's pure aesthetic implications, as I think it is an emphasis on visual polish, visceral satisfaction, vertical integration, and novelty - all at the expense of many things "power user" oriented. It's a path to expansion, buy-in, and pundit-fodder, and apparently a tremendous market cap. I've known for about 5 years that I have some variety of Linux in my future, it's just a matter of time. Though I will likely always have need for Adobe products professionally. And as regards the Finder, well... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FTFF https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FTFF My perspective: Apple IIe -> Mac -> IIcx -> PowerMac -> XP - OS X.
- digi_owl 12y ago
  Careful, there is a big undercurrent in the Linux ecosystem towards creating a OSX carbon copy...

jmspring 12y ago

Software - iTunes and the crap like it has become has been the canary for Apple software. Never better, only worse and more bloated.

ArkyBeagle 12y ago

Ummmmmmm... anorexia? :)

madaxe_again 12y ago

Yup. The MacBook Pro I use today is likely to be my last Apple machine - I've been using their kit for decades - but they've stopped being about software, or hardware. They're all about brand. This was ok when they had technically excellent products to talk about, but their products are today mediocre, arrogant, and speak of a new, stupider, wealthier target audience. Fucking gold!

eloisant 12y ago
I think gold is mostly for China: http://www.businessinsider.com/the-gold-iphone-5s-sold-out-instantly-in-hong-kong-and-china-2013-9?IR=T http://www.businessinsider.com/the-gold-iphone-5s-sold-out-i...

laacz 12y ago

I believe there is distinction between Apple as a hardware company and Apple as a software company. First part works extremely well while latter one - not so much. I would not mix them together.

julian_t 12y ago

WiFi... every upgrade I've done since Lion has caused me pain. Upgrade, and WiFi stops working reliably. Last time was on a virtually new MacBook Pro, upgrading to Mavericks, and it took me two weeks to get it working again. So I'm kind of wary of the 'wireless everything', which would be great if the wireless was working solidly in the first place.

onhopwood 12y ago

I agree with you 100% , I still use my 2011 15 inch Macbook pro. I haven't upgraded the OS in almost 2 years.