4 ms·

No I'm not talking about a disorder or any kind of mental illness. I'm saying that a woman's experience with comments about her appearance makes her view them

by camgunz 12y ago

No I'm not talking about a disorder or any kind of mental illness. I'm saying that a woman's experience with comments about her appearance makes her view them completely differently than a man would. > Unfortunately, it's impossible for me to know if someone is dealing with that, and I'm also not going to walk around in life assuming every woman has PTSD and could be triggered by an honest complement. You should actually assume a woman doesn't want you to comment on her appearance. > It may be triggering but it still is absolutely not sexual harassment. The EEOC does a good job of defining what [harassment](http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/harassment.cfm http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/harassment.cfm) and [sexual harassment](http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/sexual_harassment.cfm http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/sexual_harassment.cfm) are. Importantly: "Harassment is unwelcome conduct that is based on race, color, religion, sex (including pregnancy), national origin, age (40 or older), disability or genetic information." Basically, you can't separate out, "Hi [woman], you look great in that dress" from "Hi [woman], that dress makes me sexually attracted to you'. That's an unwelcome sexual advance. And since you can't separate them out, you ought to stay away from them altogether. You don't have the right to say whatever you want to someone. There are lines, and comments about a woman's appearance are on the wrong side of them.

marczellm 12y ago
> You should actually assume a woman doesn't want you to comment on her appearance. I was taught both in dance/etiquette school and by my grandma that I should ALWAYS compliment if a woman looks great.
zaroth 12y ago
Harassment is easy to define, and very rarely illegal. Otherwise, just about everyone's boss in here would be behind bars. Sexual harassment is a completely different beast. Talking about "harassment" in general is moving the goalposts and a distraction from the topic at hand. From the same source you just quoted, it defines sexual harassment as; ...unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical harassment of a sexual nature. Sexual in this case means sex, as in coitus and other related physical stimuli, not gender. Furthermore, even some conduct which may be considered "sexual harassment" is not illegal. It is only illegal if it is so frequent or severe that it creates a hostile or offensive work environment. Honest complements, by definition, cannot create a hostile or offensive work environment, quite the opposite! > You should actually assume a woman doesn't want you to comment on her appearance. If you're talking about strangers, I would absolutely agree. I'm not talking about cat-calling someone in the street, I'm talking about natural conversation with coworkers and colleagues, regardless of their gender. E.g. If a colleague, male or female, comes in on Monday and their hair is a different color, I think not noticing it is more insulting by far. > Basically, you can't separate out, "Hi [woman], you look great in that dress" from "Hi [woman], that dress makes me sexually attracted to you'. First, actually, yes you can separate out the two. It takes a few hundred milliseconds to register the change in your interlocutor's facial expression which tells you if they took your comment as it was intended or not. Particularly between two people who have known each other and worked together for more than a week. But even more to the point; telling a coworker you are attracted to them, guess what, it's not sexual harassment, and it's certainly not illegal. The law says, repeated unwanted sexual advances which are so severe that they create a hostile work environment. Personally, I'm not willing to "err" on the side of pretending my coworkers are ethereal beings without corporeal form. If someone finds something I say or do offensive, I expect them to let me know, and I will apologize and modify my behavior. That way, even if someone believes I'm making an unwanted sexual advance, I can clarify that no, in fact, I was not talking about sex, and I can try to be more clear about that in the future. In other words, if the only way you're comfortable working with me is by me treating you like a robot, please let me know, and I'll do my best to accommodate you, but I sure as hell am not going to act like that toward the majority of my coworkers.
- camgunz 12y ago
  > Harassment is easy to define Yeah I already posted a link to the EEOC's definition. > ...and very rarely illegal EEOC charge statistics say otherwise: http://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/statistics/enforcement/charges.cfm http://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/statistics/enforcement/charges.cfm > Sexual harassment is a completely different beast. It's a specific type of harassment, like a Labrador Retriever is a specific type of dog. They're not completely different. > Sexual in this case means sex, as in coitus and other related physical stimuli, not gender. No, it's not restricted to physical stimuli. To reference the reports in this thread, telling a woman "it's taking all of my self control not to grab your ass right now" is sexual harassment, even if no one is touched. Do you really think otherwise? You also conveniently left out the rest of the definition: Harassment does not have to be of a sexual nature, however, and can include offensive remarks about a person’s sex. For example, it is illegal to harass a woman by making offensive comments about women in general. So you're really just 100% wrong, regardless of your opinions or feelings. > Honest complements, by definition, cannot create a hostile or offensive work environment They can if they're inappropriate and unwanted. I really encourage you to thoroughly read the definitions I linked to. > If you're talking about strangers, I would absolutely agree. I'm not talking about cat-calling someone in the street, I'm talking about natural conversation with coworkers and colleagues, regardless of their gender. I'm talking about the workplace and work-related functions, because that's the topic of this thread. > E.g. If a colleague, male or female, comes in on Monday and their hair is a different color, I think not noticing it is more insulting by far. It's extremely entitled to think that someone, man or woman, changed their appearance to elicit a reaction from you. > The law says, repeated unwanted sexual advances which are so severe that they create a hostile work environment. To be pedantic, you're quoting the EEOC (I assume), which isn't the law, it's just EEOC's description. Further, you've misquoted them: Although the law doesn’t prohibit simple teasing, offhand comments, or isolated incidents that are not very serious, harassment is illegal when it is so frequent *or severe* that it creates a hostile or offensive work environment or when it results in an adverse employment decision (such as the victim being fired or demoted). > First, actually, yes you can separate out the two. You can, because you personally know your intent. But no one else can, and your intent is irrelevant. If your actions create a hostile work environment, it doesn't matter if you meant to or not. > But even more to the point; telling a coworker you are attracted to them, guess what, it's not sexual harassment, and it's certainly not illegal. Yes it is, it's an unwelcome sexual advance. If you keep doing it, you're sexually harassing someone, or if you do it in a severe enough way, you're sexually harassing someone. You don't have a right to say whatever you want to someone. You may intend it to be an honest compliment, but your intent is irrelevant. Someone's attractiveness and physical appearance isn't relevant in the workplace, and it's inappropriate to bring it up. > The law says, repeated unwanted sexual advances which are so severe that they create a hostile work environment. Again I assume you're quoting the EEOC, which is not the law, and again you misquoted them: Although the law doesn’t prohibit simple teasing, offhand comments, or isolated incidents that are not very serious, harassment is illegal when it is so frequent or severe that it creates a hostile or offensive work environment or when it results in an adverse employment decision (such as the victim being fired or demoted). > Personally, I'm not willing to "err" on the side of pretending my coworkers are ethereal beings without corporeal form. This is entitlement, pure and simple. You're not willing to stop commenting on womens' appearances in order to avoid potentially making them uncomfortable, because you have a burning need to compliment? Indefensible. Your need to compliment isn't something that we have to protect. Womens' ability to feel comfortable and safe in the workplace is. It's infinitely more important; any suggestion otherwise is wildly selfish. > In other words, if the only way you're comfortable working with me is by me treating you like a robot, please let me know, and I'll do my best to accommodate you You have this backwards. Your default should be professional, workplace-appropriate conduct. Only in very specific circumstances can you act differently. I know we disagree on what workplace-appropriate conduct is, but your argument that it's up to women to "opt out" of your compliments is oppressive. The onus isn't on them, it's on you. And if you disagree that it's oppressive, remember that you're the one complaining about how onerous it would be for you to stop complimenting them. How hard would that really be, honestly?

by camgunz 12y ago

marczellm 12y ago

> You should actually assume a woman doesn't want you to comment on her appearance. I was taught both in dance/etiquette school and by my grandma that I should ALWAYS compliment if a woman looks great.

zaroth 12y ago

Harassment is easy to define, and very rarely illegal. Otherwise, just about everyone's boss in here would be behind bars. Sexual harassment is a completely different beast. Talking about "harassment" in general is moving the goalposts and a distraction from the topic at hand. From the same source you just quoted, it defines sexual harassment as; ...unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical harassment of a sexual nature. Sexual in this case means sex, as in coitus and other related physical stimuli, not gender. Furthermore, even some conduct which may be considered "sexual harassment" is not illegal. It is only illegal if it is so frequent or severe that it creates a hostile or offensive work environment. Honest complements, by definition, cannot create a hostile or offensive work environment, quite the opposite! > You should actually assume a woman doesn't want you to comment on her appearance. If you're talking about strangers, I would absolutely agree. I'm not talking about cat-calling someone in the street, I'm talking about natural conversation with coworkers and colleagues, regardless of their gender. E.g. If a colleague, male or female, comes in on Monday and their hair is a different color, I think not noticing it is more insulting by far. > Basically, you can't separate out, "Hi [woman], you look great in that dress" from "Hi [woman], that dress makes me sexually attracted to you'. First, actually, yes you can separate out the two. It takes a few hundred milliseconds to register the change in your interlocutor's facial expression which tells you if they took your comment as it was intended or not. Particularly between two people who have known each other and worked together for more than a week. But even more to the point; telling a coworker you are attracted to them, guess what, it's not sexual harassment, and it's certainly not illegal. The law says, repeated unwanted sexual advances which are so severe that they create a hostile work environment. Personally, I'm not willing to "err" on the side of pretending my coworkers are ethereal beings without corporeal form. If someone finds something I say or do offensive, I expect them to let me know, and I will apologize and modify my behavior. That way, even if someone believes I'm making an unwanted sexual advance, I can clarify that no, in fact, I was not talking about sex, and I can try to be more clear about that in the future. In other words, if the only way you're comfortable working with me is by me treating you like a robot, please let me know, and I'll do my best to accommodate you, but I sure as hell am not going to act like that toward the majority of my coworkers.

camgunz 12y ago
> Harassment is easy to define Yeah I already posted a link to the EEOC's definition. > ...and very rarely illegal EEOC charge statistics say otherwise: http://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/statistics/enforcement/charges.cfm http://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/statistics/enforcement/charges.cfm > Sexual harassment is a completely different beast. It's a specific type of harassment, like a Labrador Retriever is a specific type of dog. They're not completely different. > Sexual in this case means sex, as in coitus and other related physical stimuli, not gender. No, it's not restricted to physical stimuli. To reference the reports in this thread, telling a woman "it's taking all of my self control not to grab your ass right now" is sexual harassment, even if no one is touched. Do you really think otherwise? You also conveniently left out the rest of the definition: Harassment does not have to be of a sexual nature, however, and can include offensive remarks about a person’s sex. For example, it is illegal to harass a woman by making offensive comments about women in general. So you're really just 100% wrong, regardless of your opinions or feelings. > Honest complements, by definition, cannot create a hostile or offensive work environment They can if they're inappropriate and unwanted. I really encourage you to thoroughly read the definitions I linked to. > If you're talking about strangers, I would absolutely agree. I'm not talking about cat-calling someone in the street, I'm talking about natural conversation with coworkers and colleagues, regardless of their gender. I'm talking about the workplace and work-related functions, because that's the topic of this thread. > E.g. If a colleague, male or female, comes in on Monday and their hair is a different color, I think not noticing it is more insulting by far. It's extremely entitled to think that someone, man or woman, changed their appearance to elicit a reaction from you. > The law says, repeated unwanted sexual advances which are so severe that they create a hostile work environment. To be pedantic, you're quoting the EEOC (I assume), which isn't the law, it's just EEOC's description. Further, you've misquoted them: Although the law doesn’t prohibit simple teasing, offhand comments, or isolated incidents that are not very serious, harassment is illegal when it is so frequent *or severe* that it creates a hostile or offensive work environment or when it results in an adverse employment decision (such as the victim being fired or demoted). > First, actually, yes you can separate out the two. You can, because you personally know your intent. But no one else can, and your intent is irrelevant. If your actions create a hostile work environment, it doesn't matter if you meant to or not. > But even more to the point; telling a coworker you are attracted to them, guess what, it's not sexual harassment, and it's certainly not illegal. Yes it is, it's an unwelcome sexual advance. If you keep doing it, you're sexually harassing someone, or if you do it in a severe enough way, you're sexually harassing someone. You don't have a right to say whatever you want to someone. You may intend it to be an honest compliment, but your intent is irrelevant. Someone's attractiveness and physical appearance isn't relevant in the workplace, and it's inappropriate to bring it up. > The law says, repeated unwanted sexual advances which are so severe that they create a hostile work environment. Again I assume you're quoting the EEOC, which is not the law, and again you misquoted them: Although the law doesn’t prohibit simple teasing, offhand comments, or isolated incidents that are not very serious, harassment is illegal when it is so frequent or severe that it creates a hostile or offensive work environment or when it results in an adverse employment decision (such as the victim being fired or demoted). > Personally, I'm not willing to "err" on the side of pretending my coworkers are ethereal beings without corporeal form. This is entitlement, pure and simple. You're not willing to stop commenting on womens' appearances in order to avoid potentially making them uncomfortable, because you have a burning need to compliment? Indefensible. Your need to compliment isn't something that we have to protect. Womens' ability to feel comfortable and safe in the workplace is. It's infinitely more important; any suggestion otherwise is wildly selfish. > In other words, if the only way you're comfortable working with me is by me treating you like a robot, please let me know, and I'll do my best to accommodate you You have this backwards. Your default should be professional, workplace-appropriate conduct. Only in very specific circumstances can you act differently. I know we disagree on what workplace-appropriate conduct is, but your argument that it's up to women to "opt out" of your compliments is oppressive. The onus isn't on them, it's on you. And if you disagree that it's oppressive, remember that you're the one complaining about how onerous it would be for you to stop complimenting them. How hard would that really be, honestly?