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And here folks I guess we have a real case of harassment. I think there is a line to be drawn somewhere between here and pycon (two men talking privately about

And here folks I guess we have a real case of harassment. I think there is a line to be drawn somewhere between here and pycon (two men talking privately about something that could be understood as offensive). That said I am surprised about two things: * People trying to argue that this should not be punished because everyone would do if they were safe from repercussions. I strongly believe that a big chunk of the audience here would not steal, kill etc without reason even if they were sure not to get caught. * People suggesting this should be in public registers etc. This story is most likely already a real problem for a few of those guys. Side note: They are not alone. I've recently been reading several seemingly normal grown up people signed in with facebook accounts stating how they think a certain country should be nuked. Edit: as tzakrajs points out these incidents are completely different and that was actually what I meant but I fully understand why it could be read as "a line connecting those incidents." My bad.

tzakrajs 12y ago
The incident at PyCon: Conversation interloper becomes offended on behalf of non-present female children by the contents of a conversation that she was interloping. PyCon staff of course will be sycophantic with upset guests because they hate bad press. The PyCon incident was a moment of incalculable oversensitivity and probably should just be forgotten when considering the spectrum for which you hope to draw a line on.
- reitanqild 12y ago
  Sorry, my bad: the line was supposed to divide between those point, not to join them. Thanks for the comment! I fully agree that these to events are totally different (and that was kind of my point, -to separate between victims of real harassment and professional victims.)
- lambda 12y ago
  PyCon staff of course will be sycophantic with upset guests because they hate bad press. All the PyCon staff did was talk to the developer in question, mention that the comments had offended someone, and left it there. That's pretty much exactly what I would expect them to do. That was confirmed by the developer in question: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5412553 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5412553 There were plenty of overreactions in that case; Adria Richards for choosing to publicly shame rather than either talk privately with the developers in question or simply bring it to the PyCon organizers' attention, Play Haven for choosing to fire him over such a minor incident rather than simply giving him a warning, SendGrid for choosing to fire Adria rather than try to work with her to try and bring her behavior more into line with acceptable public relations, and a large number of people on the internet for going way beyond the boundaries of civil behavior in harassing people on both sides of the debate. But among all of those over-reactions, from all accounts, the PyCon organizers behaved eminently reasonably.
  - reitanqild 12y ago
    Thanks for defending PyCon. That sounds reasonable.
maxerickson 12y ago
Adria Richards really was harassed, by people that were extremely angered by something that should have been easily dismissed as a mistake. She got all sorts of nasty shit on twitter, threats, the whole works. I don't think her initial reaction was a good one, but it certainly didn't justify all the stuff that followed. Her apparent pattern of reacting loudly to small offenses ( https://amandablumwords.wordpress.com/2013/03/21/3/ https://amandablumwords.wordpress.com/2013/03/21/3/ ) also isn't something to become angry and outraged over. I'm not sure how to handle that, but I'm sure it won't involve death threats.
- reitanqild 12y ago
  Disclaimer: Not defending threatening her. Definitely defending SendGrid for firing her though. > by people that were extremely angered by something that should have been easily dismissed as a mistake. It was a pretty big mistake on her part, going on for days and as far as I am aware she never apologized. > Her apparent pattern of reacting loudly to small offenses ... also isn't something to become angry and outraged over. Also not when it costs two people their jobs?
  - maxerickson 12y ago
    I don't accept the premise that she cost Hank his job. Conveniently, my argument is that the incident itself didn't deserve all the negative attention it got (it should have mostly been ignored), and in the absence of all that negative attention, Hank probably would not have lost his job. Also, my point was to respond to the comparison you made: And here folks I guess we have a real case of harassment. I think there is a line to be drawn somewhere between here and pycon (two men talking privately about something that could be understood as offensive). There's very little denouncement of the dongle joke. There's wide agreement that it wasn't outrageous. It wasn't the remarkable thing about the incident, merely the first thing that happened. Yet you've characterized 'pycon' as being on the other side of some line that defines real harassment.
    - reitanqild 12y ago
      > I don't accept the premise that she cost Hank his job. If someone start a fire in a building then they would be stupid to argue that the reason people got hurt was because firemen didn't react quickly enough. There is no doubt she started it, she could have prevented all this from happening in the first place. * She took offence over a private conversation between two others. * She publicly shamed them by including the picture etc. She could have talked to them. She could have talked to the organizers. Instead she decided to abuse her position and go straight to public shaming. That said, yes, a lot of interesting decisions here.
InclinedPlane 12y ago
> "I strongly believe that a big chunk of the audience here would not steal, kill etc without reason even if they were sure not to get caught." At one data entry job I had I got paid for piece work, instead of by the hour. One time they screwed up the math and overpaid me, by a lot (nearly a whole paycheck worth). It took a lot to convince the people in charge that they'd fucked up and needed to take the money back.

tzakrajs 12y ago

The incident at PyCon: Conversation interloper becomes offended on behalf of non-present female children by the contents of a conversation that she was interloping. PyCon staff of course will be sycophantic with upset guests because they hate bad press. The PyCon incident was a moment of incalculable oversensitivity and probably should just be forgotten when considering the spectrum for which you hope to draw a line on.

reitanqild 12y ago
Sorry, my bad: the line was supposed to divide between those point, not to join them. Thanks for the comment! I fully agree that these to events are totally different (and that was kind of my point, -to separate between victims of real harassment and professional victims.)
lambda 12y ago
PyCon staff of course will be sycophantic with upset guests because they hate bad press. All the PyCon staff did was talk to the developer in question, mention that the comments had offended someone, and left it there. That's pretty much exactly what I would expect them to do. That was confirmed by the developer in question: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5412553 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5412553 There were plenty of overreactions in that case; Adria Richards for choosing to publicly shame rather than either talk privately with the developers in question or simply bring it to the PyCon organizers' attention, Play Haven for choosing to fire him over such a minor incident rather than simply giving him a warning, SendGrid for choosing to fire Adria rather than try to work with her to try and bring her behavior more into line with acceptable public relations, and a large number of people on the internet for going way beyond the boundaries of civil behavior in harassing people on both sides of the debate. But among all of those over-reactions, from all accounts, the PyCon organizers behaved eminently reasonably.
- reitanqild 12y ago
  Thanks for defending PyCon. That sounds reasonable.

maxerickson 12y ago

Adria Richards really was harassed, by people that were extremely angered by something that should have been easily dismissed as a mistake. She got all sorts of nasty shit on twitter, threats, the whole works. I don't think her initial reaction was a good one, but it certainly didn't justify all the stuff that followed. Her apparent pattern of reacting loudly to small offenses ( https://amandablumwords.wordpress.com/2013/03/21/3/ https://amandablumwords.wordpress.com/2013/03/21/3/ ) also isn't something to become angry and outraged over. I'm not sure how to handle that, but I'm sure it won't involve death threats.

reitanqild 12y ago
Disclaimer: Not defending threatening her. Definitely defending SendGrid for firing her though. > by people that were extremely angered by something that should have been easily dismissed as a mistake. It was a pretty big mistake on her part, going on for days and as far as I am aware she never apologized. > Her apparent pattern of reacting loudly to small offenses ... also isn't something to become angry and outraged over. Also not when it costs two people their jobs?
- maxerickson 12y ago
  I don't accept the premise that she cost Hank his job. Conveniently, my argument is that the incident itself didn't deserve all the negative attention it got (it should have mostly been ignored), and in the absence of all that negative attention, Hank probably would not have lost his job. Also, my point was to respond to the comparison you made: And here folks I guess we have a real case of harassment. I think there is a line to be drawn somewhere between here and pycon (two men talking privately about something that could be understood as offensive). There's very little denouncement of the dongle joke. There's wide agreement that it wasn't outrageous. It wasn't the remarkable thing about the incident, merely the first thing that happened. Yet you've characterized 'pycon' as being on the other side of some line that defines real harassment.
  - reitanqild 12y ago
    > I don't accept the premise that she cost Hank his job. If someone start a fire in a building then they would be stupid to argue that the reason people got hurt was because firemen didn't react quickly enough. There is no doubt she started it, she could have prevented all this from happening in the first place. * She took offence over a private conversation between two others. * She publicly shamed them by including the picture etc. She could have talked to them. She could have talked to the organizers. Instead she decided to abuse her position and go straight to public shaming. That said, yes, a lot of interesting decisions here.

InclinedPlane 12y ago

> "I strongly believe that a big chunk of the audience here would not steal, kill etc without reason even if they were sure not to get caught." At one data entry job I had I got paid for piece work, instead of by the hour. One time they screwed up the math and overpaid me, by a lot (nearly a whole paycheck worth). It took a lot to convince the people in charge that they'd fucked up and needed to take the money back.