5 ms·

>>A compliment alone should not constitute sexual harassment, that would be total madness. That definitely depends on the compliment; exactly what attribute ab

by smtddr 12y ago

>>A compliment alone should not constitute sexual harassment, that would be total madness. That definitely depends on the compliment; exactly what attribute about the person you're complimenting.....

zaroth 12y ago
How about lets start with visible items of clothing which are on public display. "You look amazing in that ___, like a rock star." If that is harassment, I guess I'm harassing my coworkers pretty much daily. The original tweeted "quote" was absolutely offensive. The tweet linked by @marczellm, umm... I guess I just don't get it. I've probably said the exact same thing many times to colleagues. I can guarantee women say the same to women on a regular basis, and men to men. But a man uttering the same words to a woman and all of a sudden you're fired and here's a lawsuit to boot? What if a woman complements a man's outfit? How is any of that even remotely sexual harassment? I think there are reasonable bounds that people generally agree on what is and what is not "sexual harassment". There is some really disgusting shit going on in some of these workplaces... there's more than enough actual harassment going around. If you are calling out basic complements on what you are physically wearing at the moment... frankly I would not risk working with someone who thought an honest complement was sexual harassment. How can you work with someone under those conditions, how can you take the risk they wouldn't go on Twitter and start libeling you? I don't want to work with anyone I can't build camaraderie with, and that means being able to pay someone an honest complement, without worrying in the back of my mind if the coworker is going to run on Twitter and claim I harassed them. I am certainly more skeptical of the TFA tweet after reading the second posted by @marczellm.
- acdha 12y ago
  What's different is that he continued after it was clear that she (and apparently other women) didn't appreciate it. Note the part which said “People above his level knew; reprimanded me instead of him.” – if that's true, it's a textbook harassment case because that's changing it from a potentially misunderstood comment (hypothetically - some of those quotes were pretty clear) to redefining the job as taking abuse from him.
  - zaroth 12y ago
    I can't actually understand / follow the flow of conversation as it's been reduced to 140 character chirps. And to be clear there is a big difference between one quote and the other. So maybe it would be better to not comment at all, but reading just this in a vacuum https://twitter.com/justkelly_ok/status/574248445780733954 https://twitter.com/justkelly_ok/status/574248445780733954 ... makes no sense to me at all.
    - acdha 12y ago
      I would strongly agree that having this on Twitter is making it more confusing than, say, a blog post would be. The replies & conversation on her Google+ thread from other people at Google makes me believe that the context supports the more negative take.
- camgunz 12y ago
  While you may intend a compliment on a woman's physical appearance as honest, in the same way you would compliment a man's tie or his shoes, the situations aren't the same. Men don't have centuries of history of being valued solely on their appearance. Men aren't harassed based upon their appearance. When men are raped, they aren't asked about their appearance, or if their appearance was provocative. I don't mean to put too fine a point on it, but many women view comments on their appearance as demeaning and threatening, largely because of harassment they've experienced all their lives. Their experience is different than yours, and it's important to acknowledge this. Women aren't men, and treating them this way papers over centuries of oppression and misogyny. It's important to be sex and gender conscious, not sex and gender blind.
  - zaroth 12y ago
    It sounds like what you're talking about is women who have PTSD and are potentially triggered in situations like this. Unfortunately, it's impossible for me to know if someone is dealing with that, and I'm also not going to walk around in life assuming every woman has PTSD and could be triggered by an honest complement. It may be triggering but it still is absolutely not sexual harassment. If someone is triggered by things that come up regularly in ordinary work environments, first, that's a terrible situation. At some point they might want to consider disclosing at least something about the trigger to their colleagues so the colleagues can try to avoid it and understand it, versus hiding behind a claim of "sexual harassment" when it actually is not. I get that's not a good answer, because most people will absolutely not understand what a trigger is and why it happens, and most importantly what being triggered actually feels like while it's happening. But even in light of all that, it's a past crime echoing into the present, and not a new transgression, even though it may certainly feel that way to the person being triggered.
    - camgunz 12y ago
      No I'm not talking about a disorder or any kind of mental illness. I'm saying that a woman's experience with comments about her appearance makes her view them completely differently than a man would. > Unfortunately, it's impossible for me to know if someone is dealing with that, and I'm also not going to walk around in life assuming every woman has PTSD and could be triggered by an honest complement. You should actually assume a woman doesn't want you to comment on her appearance. > It may be triggering but it still is absolutely not sexual harassment. The EEOC does a good job of defining what [harassment](http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/harassment.cfm http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/harassment.cfm) and [sexual harassment](http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/sexual_harassment.cfm http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/sexual_harassment.cfm) are. Importantly: "Harassment is unwelcome conduct that is based on race, color, religion, sex (including pregnancy), national origin, age (40 or older), disability or genetic information." Basically, you can't separate out, "Hi [woman], you look great in that dress" from "Hi [woman], that dress makes me sexually attracted to you'. That's an unwelcome sexual advance. And since you can't separate them out, you ought to stay away from them altogether. You don't have the right to say whatever you want to someone. There are lines, and comments about a woman's appearance are on the wrong side of them.

by smtddr 12y ago

>>A compliment alone should not constitute sexual harassment, that would be total madness. That definitely depends on the compliment; exactly what attribute about the person you're complimenting.....

zaroth 12y ago

How about lets start with visible items of clothing which are on public display. "You look amazing in that ___, like a rock star." If that is harassment, I guess I'm harassing my coworkers pretty much daily. The original tweeted "quote" was absolutely offensive. The tweet linked by @marczellm, umm... I guess I just don't get it. I've probably said the exact same thing many times to colleagues. I can guarantee women say the same to women on a regular basis, and men to men. But a man uttering the same words to a woman and all of a sudden you're fired and here's a lawsuit to boot? What if a woman complements a man's outfit? How is any of that even remotely sexual harassment? I think there are reasonable bounds that people generally agree on what is and what is not "sexual harassment". There is some really disgusting shit going on in some of these workplaces... there's more than enough actual harassment going around. If you are calling out basic complements on what you are physically wearing at the moment... frankly I would not risk working with someone who thought an honest complement was sexual harassment. How can you work with someone under those conditions, how can you take the risk they wouldn't go on Twitter and start libeling you? I don't want to work with anyone I can't build camaraderie with, and that means being able to pay someone an honest complement, without worrying in the back of my mind if the coworker is going to run on Twitter and claim I harassed them. I am certainly more skeptical of the TFA tweet after reading the second posted by @marczellm.

acdha 12y ago
What's different is that he continued after it was clear that she (and apparently other women) didn't appreciate it. Note the part which said “People above his level knew; reprimanded me instead of him.” – if that's true, it's a textbook harassment case because that's changing it from a potentially misunderstood comment (hypothetically - some of those quotes were pretty clear) to redefining the job as taking abuse from him.
- zaroth 12y ago
  I can't actually understand / follow the flow of conversation as it's been reduced to 140 character chirps. And to be clear there is a big difference between one quote and the other. So maybe it would be better to not comment at all, but reading just this in a vacuum https://twitter.com/justkelly_ok/status/574248445780733954 https://twitter.com/justkelly_ok/status/574248445780733954 ... makes no sense to me at all.
  - acdha 12y ago
    I would strongly agree that having this on Twitter is making it more confusing than, say, a blog post would be. The replies & conversation on her Google+ thread from other people at Google makes me believe that the context supports the more negative take.
camgunz 12y ago
While you may intend a compliment on a woman's physical appearance as honest, in the same way you would compliment a man's tie or his shoes, the situations aren't the same. Men don't have centuries of history of being valued solely on their appearance. Men aren't harassed based upon their appearance. When men are raped, they aren't asked about their appearance, or if their appearance was provocative. I don't mean to put too fine a point on it, but many women view comments on their appearance as demeaning and threatening, largely because of harassment they've experienced all their lives. Their experience is different than yours, and it's important to acknowledge this. Women aren't men, and treating them this way papers over centuries of oppression and misogyny. It's important to be sex and gender conscious, not sex and gender blind.
- zaroth 12y ago
  It sounds like what you're talking about is women who have PTSD and are potentially triggered in situations like this. Unfortunately, it's impossible for me to know if someone is dealing with that, and I'm also not going to walk around in life assuming every woman has PTSD and could be triggered by an honest complement. It may be triggering but it still is absolutely not sexual harassment. If someone is triggered by things that come up regularly in ordinary work environments, first, that's a terrible situation. At some point they might want to consider disclosing at least something about the trigger to their colleagues so the colleagues can try to avoid it and understand it, versus hiding behind a claim of "sexual harassment" when it actually is not. I get that's not a good answer, because most people will absolutely not understand what a trigger is and why it happens, and most importantly what being triggered actually feels like while it's happening. But even in light of all that, it's a past crime echoing into the present, and not a new transgression, even though it may certainly feel that way to the person being triggered.
  - camgunz 12y ago
    No I'm not talking about a disorder or any kind of mental illness. I'm saying that a woman's experience with comments about her appearance makes her view them completely differently than a man would. > Unfortunately, it's impossible for me to know if someone is dealing with that, and I'm also not going to walk around in life assuming every woman has PTSD and could be triggered by an honest complement. You should actually assume a woman doesn't want you to comment on her appearance. > It may be triggering but it still is absolutely not sexual harassment. The EEOC does a good job of defining what [harassment](http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/harassment.cfm http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/harassment.cfm) and [sexual harassment](http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/sexual_harassment.cfm http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/sexual_harassment.cfm) are. Importantly: "Harassment is unwelcome conduct that is based on race, color, religion, sex (including pregnancy), national origin, age (40 or older), disability or genetic information." Basically, you can't separate out, "Hi [woman], you look great in that dress" from "Hi [woman], that dress makes me sexually attracted to you'. That's an unwelcome sexual advance. And since you can't separate them out, you ought to stay away from them altogether. You don't have the right to say whatever you want to someone. There are lines, and comments about a woman's appearance are on the wrong side of them.