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https://twitter.com/justkelly_ok/status/574248445780733954 https://twitter.com/justkelly_ok/status/574248445780733954 A compliment alone should not constitute

https://twitter.com/justkelly_ok/status/574248445780733954 https://twitter.com/justkelly_ok/status/574248445780733954 A compliment alone should not constitute sexual harassment, that would be total madness. However with the other stories she tells I understand why she included this. Nevertheless this got me thinking: could we consider overly sexy looks a form of harassment too? (Unrelated to the specific story; I'm sure she didn't intentionally try to attract her bosses' attention.) As a male, the mere presence of an overly sexy woman can put me in a state similar to fear: rising heart rate, mild trembling, goosebumps, inability to concentrate on whatever I was doing (talking to someone or doing work) etc.

rwbcxrz 12y ago
It's incredibly inappropriate for a manager to make sexual remarks about one of their employees. > As a male, the mere presence of an overly sexy woman can put me in a state similar to fear: rising heart rate, mild trembling, goosebumps, inability to concentrate on whatever I was doing (talking to someone or doing work) etc. You sound like you're speaking on behalf of all males. You don't. If that's really your reaction, you should seek counseling. Trembling and being unable to work are not really normal reactions.
- rodgerd 12y ago
  > You sound like you're speaking on behalf of all males. You don't I'd like to amplify this.
smtddr 12y ago
>>A compliment alone should not constitute sexual harassment, that would be total madness. That definitely depends on the compliment; exactly what attribute about the person you're complimenting.....
- zaroth 12y ago
  How about lets start with visible items of clothing which are on public display. "You look amazing in that ___, like a rock star." If that is harassment, I guess I'm harassing my coworkers pretty much daily. The original tweeted "quote" was absolutely offensive. The tweet linked by @marczellm, umm... I guess I just don't get it. I've probably said the exact same thing many times to colleagues. I can guarantee women say the same to women on a regular basis, and men to men. But a man uttering the same words to a woman and all of a sudden you're fired and here's a lawsuit to boot? What if a woman complements a man's outfit? How is any of that even remotely sexual harassment? I think there are reasonable bounds that people generally agree on what is and what is not "sexual harassment". There is some really disgusting shit going on in some of these workplaces... there's more than enough actual harassment going around. If you are calling out basic complements on what you are physically wearing at the moment... frankly I would not risk working with someone who thought an honest complement was sexual harassment. How can you work with someone under those conditions, how can you take the risk they wouldn't go on Twitter and start libeling you? I don't want to work with anyone I can't build camaraderie with, and that means being able to pay someone an honest complement, without worrying in the back of my mind if the coworker is going to run on Twitter and claim I harassed them. I am certainly more skeptical of the TFA tweet after reading the second posted by @marczellm.
  - acdha 12y ago
    What's different is that he continued after it was clear that she (and apparently other women) didn't appreciate it. Note the part which said “People above his level knew; reprimanded me instead of him.” – if that's true, it's a textbook harassment case because that's changing it from a potentially misunderstood comment (hypothetically - some of those quotes were pretty clear) to redefining the job as taking abuse from him.
    - zaroth 12y ago
      I can't actually understand / follow the flow of conversation as it's been reduced to 140 character chirps. And to be clear there is a big difference between one quote and the other. So maybe it would be better to not comment at all, but reading just this in a vacuum https://twitter.com/justkelly_ok/status/574248445780733954 https://twitter.com/justkelly_ok/status/574248445780733954 ... makes no sense to me at all.
      - acdha 12y ago
        I would strongly agree that having this on Twitter is making it more confusing than, say, a blog post would be. The replies & conversation on her Google+ thread from other people at Google makes me believe that the context supports the more negative take.
  - camgunz 12y ago
    While you may intend a compliment on a woman's physical appearance as honest, in the same way you would compliment a man's tie or his shoes, the situations aren't the same. Men don't have centuries of history of being valued solely on their appearance. Men aren't harassed based upon their appearance. When men are raped, they aren't asked about their appearance, or if their appearance was provocative. I don't mean to put too fine a point on it, but many women view comments on their appearance as demeaning and threatening, largely because of harassment they've experienced all their lives. Their experience is different than yours, and it's important to acknowledge this. Women aren't men, and treating them this way papers over centuries of oppression and misogyny. It's important to be sex and gender conscious, not sex and gender blind.
geofft 12y ago
As a male, I don't really have that reaction. I'm not really sure that people's personal reactions to their own work environment ought to be called "harassment," and I think "inability to do your job" is probably closer to the right term. I can sympathize with that reaction for, like, deadlines. I do get a rising heart rate and an inability to concentrate on my work, as a tight deadline approaches and I'm behind on things. I don't think that banning deadlines from the workplace is really the right answer. I'd rather just acknowledge that I'm bad at my job if I let this problem continue, and I should figure out a way to deal with this personal problem, if I want to keep my job.
detcader 12y ago
Showing up to work naked is already considered grounds for reprimand. If you can't be around a clothed woman without breaking down mentally just because she is clothed in a certain way, that is your problem.
- mbillie1 12y ago
  > If you can't be around a clothed woman without breaking down mentally just because she is clothed in a certain way, that is your problem. Yes, thank you. The whole "I'm a victim of being attracted to pretty people" schtick has gone quite far enough. You're an adult in a place of business, try acting like it.
afarrell 12y ago
I have a pair of pants that I bought from a friends' startup which are, um, well-fitting enough that my wife has told me: 1) they're her favorite pair of my pants. 2) wearing them at work might be sexual harassment. The manufacturer brands themselves as professional, so it's not like I'm trying to do a David Bowie impression. They're very comfortable and look nice, so I'd prefer to keep wearing them unless they're actually improper. Is there a good way to definitively determine this without asking awkward questions of the women in my office?
- kennywinker 12y ago
  Ask your wife if she would be ok with you wearing them to dinner with her parents.
- zaroth 12y ago
  Unless they are literally crotch-less, the cut and fit of your jeans is a topic for your workplace dress code. It is not, and can never be, "sexual harassment".
zachwooddoughty 12y ago
A compliment, when given by a superior about a subordinate's physical appearance, could be considered harassment. Here's a handy guide from The Guardian [1]. > could we consider overly sexy looks a form of harassment too? Probably not. If you're unable to work near an "overly sexy woman" and she is following your company's dress code, then I'd say that's probably your problem, not hers. For it to be harassment, her appearance would have to be somehow directed at you, or somehow encroaching on personal boundaries. If someone who is clothed and just trying to do her everyday job puts you "in a state similar to fear", that's pretty unfortunate for you. [1] http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/womens-blog/2014/apr/10/sexual-harassment-flirting-six-differences http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/womens-blog/2014/apr...
- DanBC 12y ago
  I think Marczellm means "can my looking at, staring at, another person be considered harassment" and not "can someone who looks attractive be harrassment?"
  - zachwooddoughty 12y ago
    That's not how I interpreted it, but I could see how that could have been what he meant. In that case, I do think staring can, in certain contexts, be considered harassment. I would hope that it could be solved by a conversation ala "please stop staring at me".
  - marczellm 12y ago
    That's not what I meant.
    - DanBC 12y ago
      My apologies.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
kennywinker 12y ago
Please reconsider this line of thinking. Setting aside that "overly sexy looks" is the most arbitrary measure in the universe, you're basically saying "my reaction to attraction to someone means they are a problem". If you continue down this line you basically end up at the conclusion that women should not be allowed in the workplace because they distract the men. Which is as ridiculous as saying that men should not be allowed in the workplace because they are distracted by the women. Neither are reasonable places to end up.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
InclinedPlane 12y ago
You are focusing on the most innocuous of a string of comments, one of which was "It's taking all of my self control not to grab your ass right now." Don't try to make this something it's not, this is a very clearcut case of harassment.
- zaroth 12y ago
  Right, because the other allegations, if true, would be obvious, while this one in particular makes for more interesting discussion. The comments section isn't about providing a trial-by-internet-jury. I find it's more interesting to explore the hypothetical than to focus on trying to analyze or even come to some conclusion of guilt based on allegations made over Twitter.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
GFK_of_xmaspast 12y ago
Maybe start thinking with the head on top of your shoulders, not the one inside your pants.
camgunz 12y ago
Beta blockers man, beta blockers.
acdha 12y ago
> As a male, the mere presence of an overly sexy woman can put me in a state similar to fear: rising heart rate, mild trembling, goosebumps, inability to concentrate on whatever I was doing (talking to someone or doing work) etc. Just to reiterate what others are saying, that's on you and something you need to learn how to manage to work in a professional environment. Otherwise, you're expecting someone else to accept an extra burden which they didn't ask for and may not even know about – and do all of that as an unpaid distraction from their real job. The answer is simple: find a counselor whose full-time time is helping people debug their brains.
- apta 12y ago
  > Otherwise, you're expecting someone else to accept an extra burden which they didn't ask for and may not even know about Poor woman who needs to accept an "extra burden" and dress somewhat modestly, instead of going out half-naked in a working environment. Yes, it's definitely the OP's fault here.
  - acdha 12y ago
    “Overly sexy” doesn't tell us anything more than it's beyond what he can handle. You'll get very different answers for that question depending on who you ask, so it's really premature to say “somewhat modestly” when you have no idea what that means or automatically assign blame to the woman.

rwbcxrz 12y ago

It's incredibly inappropriate for a manager to make sexual remarks about one of their employees. > As a male, the mere presence of an overly sexy woman can put me in a state similar to fear: rising heart rate, mild trembling, goosebumps, inability to concentrate on whatever I was doing (talking to someone or doing work) etc. You sound like you're speaking on behalf of all males. You don't. If that's really your reaction, you should seek counseling. Trembling and being unable to work are not really normal reactions.

rodgerd 12y ago
> You sound like you're speaking on behalf of all males. You don't I'd like to amplify this.

smtddr 12y ago

>>A compliment alone should not constitute sexual harassment, that would be total madness. That definitely depends on the compliment; exactly what attribute about the person you're complimenting.....

zaroth 12y ago
How about lets start with visible items of clothing which are on public display. "You look amazing in that ___, like a rock star." If that is harassment, I guess I'm harassing my coworkers pretty much daily. The original tweeted "quote" was absolutely offensive. The tweet linked by @marczellm, umm... I guess I just don't get it. I've probably said the exact same thing many times to colleagues. I can guarantee women say the same to women on a regular basis, and men to men. But a man uttering the same words to a woman and all of a sudden you're fired and here's a lawsuit to boot? What if a woman complements a man's outfit? How is any of that even remotely sexual harassment? I think there are reasonable bounds that people generally agree on what is and what is not "sexual harassment". There is some really disgusting shit going on in some of these workplaces... there's more than enough actual harassment going around. If you are calling out basic complements on what you are physically wearing at the moment... frankly I would not risk working with someone who thought an honest complement was sexual harassment. How can you work with someone under those conditions, how can you take the risk they wouldn't go on Twitter and start libeling you? I don't want to work with anyone I can't build camaraderie with, and that means being able to pay someone an honest complement, without worrying in the back of my mind if the coworker is going to run on Twitter and claim I harassed them. I am certainly more skeptical of the TFA tweet after reading the second posted by @marczellm.
- acdha 12y ago
  What's different is that he continued after it was clear that she (and apparently other women) didn't appreciate it. Note the part which said “People above his level knew; reprimanded me instead of him.” – if that's true, it's a textbook harassment case because that's changing it from a potentially misunderstood comment (hypothetically - some of those quotes were pretty clear) to redefining the job as taking abuse from him.
  - zaroth 12y ago
    I can't actually understand / follow the flow of conversation as it's been reduced to 140 character chirps. And to be clear there is a big difference between one quote and the other. So maybe it would be better to not comment at all, but reading just this in a vacuum https://twitter.com/justkelly_ok/status/574248445780733954 https://twitter.com/justkelly_ok/status/574248445780733954 ... makes no sense to me at all.
    - acdha 12y ago
      I would strongly agree that having this on Twitter is making it more confusing than, say, a blog post would be. The replies & conversation on her Google+ thread from other people at Google makes me believe that the context supports the more negative take.
- camgunz 12y ago
  While you may intend a compliment on a woman's physical appearance as honest, in the same way you would compliment a man's tie or his shoes, the situations aren't the same. Men don't have centuries of history of being valued solely on their appearance. Men aren't harassed based upon their appearance. When men are raped, they aren't asked about their appearance, or if their appearance was provocative. I don't mean to put too fine a point on it, but many women view comments on their appearance as demeaning and threatening, largely because of harassment they've experienced all their lives. Their experience is different than yours, and it's important to acknowledge this. Women aren't men, and treating them this way papers over centuries of oppression and misogyny. It's important to be sex and gender conscious, not sex and gender blind.

geofft 12y ago

As a male, I don't really have that reaction. I'm not really sure that people's personal reactions to their own work environment ought to be called "harassment," and I think "inability to do your job" is probably closer to the right term. I can sympathize with that reaction for, like, deadlines. I do get a rising heart rate and an inability to concentrate on my work, as a tight deadline approaches and I'm behind on things. I don't think that banning deadlines from the workplace is really the right answer. I'd rather just acknowledge that I'm bad at my job if I let this problem continue, and I should figure out a way to deal with this personal problem, if I want to keep my job.

detcader 12y ago

Showing up to work naked is already considered grounds for reprimand. If you can't be around a clothed woman without breaking down mentally just because she is clothed in a certain way, that is your problem.

mbillie1 12y ago
> If you can't be around a clothed woman without breaking down mentally just because she is clothed in a certain way, that is your problem. Yes, thank you. The whole "I'm a victim of being attracted to pretty people" schtick has gone quite far enough. You're an adult in a place of business, try acting like it.

afarrell 12y ago

I have a pair of pants that I bought from a friends' startup which are, um, well-fitting enough that my wife has told me: 1) they're her favorite pair of my pants. 2) wearing them at work might be sexual harassment. The manufacturer brands themselves as professional, so it's not like I'm trying to do a David Bowie impression. They're very comfortable and look nice, so I'd prefer to keep wearing them unless they're actually improper. Is there a good way to definitively determine this without asking awkward questions of the women in my office?

kennywinker 12y ago
Ask your wife if she would be ok with you wearing them to dinner with her parents.
zaroth 12y ago
Unless they are literally crotch-less, the cut and fit of your jeans is a topic for your workplace dress code. It is not, and can never be, "sexual harassment".

zachwooddoughty 12y ago

A compliment, when given by a superior about a subordinate's physical appearance, could be considered harassment. Here's a handy guide from The Guardian [1]. > could we consider overly sexy looks a form of harassment too? Probably not. If you're unable to work near an "overly sexy woman" and she is following your company's dress code, then I'd say that's probably your problem, not hers. For it to be harassment, her appearance would have to be somehow directed at you, or somehow encroaching on personal boundaries. If someone who is clothed and just trying to do her everyday job puts you "in a state similar to fear", that's pretty unfortunate for you. [1] http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/womens-blog/2014/apr/10/sexual-harassment-flirting-six-differences http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/womens-blog/2014/apr...

DanBC 12y ago
I think Marczellm means "can my looking at, staring at, another person be considered harassment" and not "can someone who looks attractive be harrassment?"
- zachwooddoughty 12y ago
  That's not how I interpreted it, but I could see how that could have been what he meant. In that case, I do think staring can, in certain contexts, be considered harassment. I would hope that it could be solved by a conversation ala "please stop staring at me".
- marczellm 12y ago
  That's not what I meant.
  - DanBC 12y ago
    My apologies.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

kennywinker 12y ago

Please reconsider this line of thinking. Setting aside that "overly sexy looks" is the most arbitrary measure in the universe, you're basically saying "my reaction to attraction to someone means they are a problem". If you continue down this line you basically end up at the conclusion that women should not be allowed in the workplace because they distract the men. Which is as ridiculous as saying that men should not be allowed in the workplace because they are distracted by the women. Neither are reasonable places to end up.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

InclinedPlane 12y ago

You are focusing on the most innocuous of a string of comments, one of which was "It's taking all of my self control not to grab your ass right now." Don't try to make this something it's not, this is a very clearcut case of harassment.

zaroth 12y ago
Right, because the other allegations, if true, would be obvious, while this one in particular makes for more interesting discussion. The comments section isn't about providing a trial-by-internet-jury. I find it's more interesting to explore the hypothetical than to focus on trying to analyze or even come to some conclusion of guilt based on allegations made over Twitter.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

GFK_of_xmaspast 12y ago

Maybe start thinking with the head on top of your shoulders, not the one inside your pants.

camgunz 12y ago

Beta blockers man, beta blockers.

acdha 12y ago

> As a male, the mere presence of an overly sexy woman can put me in a state similar to fear: rising heart rate, mild trembling, goosebumps, inability to concentrate on whatever I was doing (talking to someone or doing work) etc. Just to reiterate what others are saying, that's on you and something you need to learn how to manage to work in a professional environment. Otherwise, you're expecting someone else to accept an extra burden which they didn't ask for and may not even know about – and do all of that as an unpaid distraction from their real job. The answer is simple: find a counselor whose full-time time is helping people debug their brains.

apta 12y ago
> Otherwise, you're expecting someone else to accept an extra burden which they didn't ask for and may not even know about Poor woman who needs to accept an "extra burden" and dress somewhat modestly, instead of going out half-naked in a working environment. Yes, it's definitely the OP's fault here.
- acdha 12y ago
  “Overly sexy” doesn't tell us anything more than it's beyond what he can handle. You'll get very different answers for that question depending on who you ask, so it's really premature to say “somewhat modestly” when you have no idea what that means or automatically assign blame to the woman.