7 ms·

> jokes that make me feel threatened I really don't see how hearing two guys in a crowd of 800+ people talk about big dongles would make one feel threatened en

by byuu 12y ago

> jokes that make me feel threatened I really don't see how hearing two guys in a crowd of 800+ people talk about big dongles would make one feel threatened enough for a comment like, "Have you ever heard that thing, men are afraid that women will laugh at them and women are afraid that men will kill them?" She feared for her life over tasteless toilet humor in a crowded conference? Bullshit. Her Victorian sensibilities were offended over a crass joke. And now she's engaging in histrionics after the fact to justify her response. Frankly, I'm really sick and tired of the pervasive image in America that all men are rapists and child molesters. You talk to a woman on an elevator, or you accidentally make eye contact with a child that isn't yours for a brief second, and everyone assumes you're a sexual predator because penis. Sure, I'll accept that men are more likely to be. But we're talking about 0.000011% of women versus 0.000018% of men here. > Hank got way more than he deserved (as did Adria) over it That we can both agree on. If anyone needs to be shamed here, it's these companies that we allow to put expediency over human lives. It's not okay to fire a father of three because someone managed to generate five minutes of buzz about them on Twitter. As consumers, this is partly our responsibility. And I for one will recommend strongly against ever using SendGrid to anyone who asks. It's too bad Hank didn't name his employer as well. > Unfortunately there are not many people who will feel for Adria Still, the complete and utter lack of empathy, along with playing the race card (way out of context I might add), is clearly doing her no good here. If I read her comments, I wouldn't hire her either. And again, this is where it's good to separate your real name from your online identity. No, we shouldn't have to, but when employers behave like this, it's just proper diligence. We don't know Hank's real name here; his current employer may not even know about this incident. If Adria had done the same, maybe she'd be employed now too.

interpol_p 12y ago
> I really don't see how hearing two guys in a crowd of 800+ people talk about big dongles would make one feel threatened enough for a comment like To her it's not 800+ people, it's 800+ men where you are one of the few women. That's not something I can say I've ever experienced. Personally I can't see how the joke is threatening, but I can't dismiss her feelings over this just because I find it tough — or even impossible — to imagine. I've tried to read this article as Hank and Adria explaining their honest feelings. If Adria is being honest about her feelings, then I can see how her reaction came about. Even if I don't agree with it. Like I said, I don't think the joke itself — or Hank himself — was the target of her anger. It was the environment, the culture, and the system which allowed Hank to make such a joke in earshot, comfortably, making her feel utterly excluded and even threatened. You claim it's histrionics, but it might be real things she is feeling. What if she really felt this way? Shouldn't we try to understand Adria as well as we understand Hank? By dismissing her so easily we make our field more exclusive. We say, "I can't imagine that so you mustn't have experienced it. It's not a problem because I can't see it." > Still, the complete and utter lack of empathy Perhaps you are right in perceiving a lack of empathy. I don't think it's because she hates Hank and wishes bad things on him. I think it's because she is viewing Hank as an oblivious part of a system which puts her at a significant disadvantage.
- cjbprime 12y ago
  Thanks for writing these comments. I think you're doing a better job of attempting empathy than the people criticizing Adria for not showing enough. :)
- adl 12y ago
  > Personally I can't see how the joke is threatening, but I can't dismiss her feelings over this just because I find it tough — or even impossible — to imagine. The same Adria who herself made penis jokes on twitter a few days earlier and who was playing Cards Against Humanity at the same PyCon conference? What happened to her is shameful and can't be condoned in any way, shape or form, but she engaged in the same (or some would say worse) behavior that she was criticizing Hank for. Double standards much? >Perhaps you are right in perceiving a lack of empathy.... I think it's because she is viewing Hank as an oblivious part of a system which puts her at a significant disadvantage. That's the definition of lack of empathy, Hank clearly expressed empathy for her, she didn't even consider the possibility that her public shaming could have serious consequences. By the way, I believe she was in her right to complain about the joke to the organizers in private, it's the public tweet with the photo that crossed the line.
  - ceejayoz 12y ago
    Twitter isn't a professional setting like a conference session, and anyone joining in a game of CAH is deliberately opting-in to a situation where offensively funny combinations are the entire point of the game.
    - adl 12y ago
      Twitter is way worse, it is a public forum, with thousands of followers and she used her account as an official representative of her company. (in a PR kind of capacity even.) The dongle comment was a conversation between two people, it was not private, but it's audience was intended to be limited to two individuals. The CAH game could offend someone that passed by (it was played in a hallway), what would have happened if someone took a picture of her playing CAH and tweeted "Not Cool Guys/Gals"and made a blog post about feeling treated at PyCon? https://instagram.com/p/W_A1xlAacg/ https://instagram.com/p/W_A1xlAacg/
singletonaccnt 12y ago
Please don't use "pedophiles" as a synonym for "sexual predator". It's not the same, and it's very stigmatizing for people who are attracted to children but decide to not act on their feelings. Here is a great thread on the parenting Stack Exchange that explains the issue: https://parenting.stackexchange.com/questions/18782/what-should-i-do-if-my-15-year-old-son-is-sexually-interested-in-younger-boys https://parenting.stackexchange.com/questions/18782/what-sho...
- byuu 12y ago
  Ah, you're absolutely right, thank you. Please accept my sincere apologies. I've corrected the wording in the original post.
skywhopper 12y ago
> You talk to a woman on an elevator... and > everyone assumes you're a sexual predator > because penis. A woman's fear of unwanted sexual advances, assault, or rape from an unknown male when she's in a vulnerable position is entirely reasonable. Many women receive unwelcome sexual advances on a regular basis. Most men have basically no point of personal reference for this fear, but we should try to be aware of how the woman might perceive us rather than whining about being unfairly slighted. According to the CDC, 18% of women report being raped at some point in their lives, versus 1.7% of men.[1] Given that, I think it's reasonable for women to feel a need for caution when dealing with strange men talking to them in elevators. [1] http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/sv-datasheet-a.pdf http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/sv-datasheet-a.pdf
- mhogomchungu 12y ago
  > A woman's fear of unwanted sexual advances, assault, or rape from an unknown male when she's in a vulnerable position is entirely reasonable. not always : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHCqz-J51IU&list=RDEHCqz-J51IU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHCqz-J51IU&list=RDEHCqz-J51...
- byuu 12y ago
  What's the percentage of validated rape allegations? Certainly it's non-zero. Day-after regrets, explaining pregnancy or seeking abortion approval from parents, etc. And what is the definition of rape? Groping on a subway, forced intercourse, or somewhere in between? 18% just sounds insanely high to me. That sounds like more like an epidemic. What does this ratio work out to in terms of chances any given one man is a rapist? If we ranked this as one person per allegation, that would be claiming that nearly one in five men are rapists, and that's patently absurd. If we had ~28 million male rapists in this country, our prisons would be absolutely overrun. Even if you claimed each rapist had ~10 victims, that's still an absurd number of male rapists. At any rate, it's still bullshit that I am treated like a sexual predator. As an asexual, I'm the last person on the planet you need to worry about. It's disgusting when people single out groups based on race, on female gender, on religion, on sexual orientation, etc. It should be just as disgusting to do it towards men with regards to sexual assault. Even with the absolutely ridiculous ~1:5 scenario, this woman was in a room with 800+ other men. There was zero chance she was in harm's way here.
gregd 12y ago
Let’s put ourselves into a position where we can be compassionate. As a woman in the tech industry and because of the utter lack of diversity, it is safe to assume that from the get go, attending conferences like this could be staggeringly intimidating. Viewing it from this perspective outlines how easily one could be hypersensitive to comments, looks, smiles because you’re already going into it with that perspective. Now add in a childhood that consisted of abuse by a father to a mother and the shame she felt in attending school, we can now begin to understand her reality. Adria has blockages in her life that are keeping her from living a life free from the burden she is carrying around. The very same blockages that may be contributing to what seems like a lack of empathy on her part. My only hope is that she seek out the right healer.
- camdroid 12y ago
  I'm truly sorry that she lost her job (as well as for her history - no one should have to go through that), but "hypersensitivity" doesn't really jive well with "Cards Against Humanity" and "public penis jokes."
rdtsc 12y ago
One of the giveaways of her character was when she wanted the HN post about him losing his job removed. What is the reason for that. Seems just like such an irrational move. Except it isn't. It isn't because she recognized Hank was using (perhaps inadvertently) her tactics. In her eyes he was telling the world he was a victim. There is nothing more frustrating than having her own methods turning against her. If anything, that cuts directly to her motivation and is a window into her character.
FireBeyond 12y ago
"Frankly, I'm really sick and tired of the pervasive image in America that all men are rapists and child molesters. You talk to a woman on an elevator, or you accidentally make eye contact with a child that isn't yours for a brief second, and everyone assumes you're a sexual predator because penis. Sure, I'll accept that men are more likely to be. But we're talking about 0.000011% of women versus 0.000018% of men here." Yes. In my "other life" I work in fire and EMS, and in uniform regularly have parents stop us and point us out to their kids - "If you're ever hurt or in trouble, you can ALWAYS go to these people, they're safe.", or the look of absolute trust when someone thrusts their sick child at you, hoping for you to make it better. And that, somewhat unsurprisingly, sometimes include seeing that child in undress. Take off my uniform. My partner spent several years in childcare, both at centers and as a nanny. We're out in public and she sees a crying child? She goes to it, talks to it, hugs it perhaps, reassures. Me? Not a chance. For better or worse, societal conditioning is that that is something I as a male /do/ /not/ /do/. Because it's nefarious that I'd even want to.

by byuu 12y ago

interpol_p 12y ago

> I really don't see how hearing two guys in a crowd of 800+ people talk about big dongles would make one feel threatened enough for a comment like To her it's not 800+ people, it's 800+ men where you are one of the few women. That's not something I can say I've ever experienced. Personally I can't see how the joke is threatening, but I can't dismiss her feelings over this just because I find it tough — or even impossible — to imagine. I've tried to read this article as Hank and Adria explaining their honest feelings. If Adria is being honest about her feelings, then I can see how her reaction came about. Even if I don't agree with it. Like I said, I don't think the joke itself — or Hank himself — was the target of her anger. It was the environment, the culture, and the system which allowed Hank to make such a joke in earshot, comfortably, making her feel utterly excluded and even threatened. You claim it's histrionics, but it might be real things she is feeling. What if she really felt this way? Shouldn't we try to understand Adria as well as we understand Hank? By dismissing her so easily we make our field more exclusive. We say, "I can't imagine that so you mustn't have experienced it. It's not a problem because I can't see it." > Still, the complete and utter lack of empathy Perhaps you are right in perceiving a lack of empathy. I don't think it's because she hates Hank and wishes bad things on him. I think it's because she is viewing Hank as an oblivious part of a system which puts her at a significant disadvantage.

cjbprime 12y ago
Thanks for writing these comments. I think you're doing a better job of attempting empathy than the people criticizing Adria for not showing enough. :)
adl 12y ago
> Personally I can't see how the joke is threatening, but I can't dismiss her feelings over this just because I find it tough — or even impossible — to imagine. The same Adria who herself made penis jokes on twitter a few days earlier and who was playing Cards Against Humanity at the same PyCon conference? What happened to her is shameful and can't be condoned in any way, shape or form, but she engaged in the same (or some would say worse) behavior that she was criticizing Hank for. Double standards much? >Perhaps you are right in perceiving a lack of empathy.... I think it's because she is viewing Hank as an oblivious part of a system which puts her at a significant disadvantage. That's the definition of lack of empathy, Hank clearly expressed empathy for her, she didn't even consider the possibility that her public shaming could have serious consequences. By the way, I believe she was in her right to complain about the joke to the organizers in private, it's the public tweet with the photo that crossed the line.
- ceejayoz 12y ago
  Twitter isn't a professional setting like a conference session, and anyone joining in a game of CAH is deliberately opting-in to a situation where offensively funny combinations are the entire point of the game.
  - adl 12y ago
    Twitter is way worse, it is a public forum, with thousands of followers and she used her account as an official representative of her company. (in a PR kind of capacity even.) The dongle comment was a conversation between two people, it was not private, but it's audience was intended to be limited to two individuals. The CAH game could offend someone that passed by (it was played in a hallway), what would have happened if someone took a picture of her playing CAH and tweeted "Not Cool Guys/Gals"and made a blog post about feeling treated at PyCon? https://instagram.com/p/W_A1xlAacg/ https://instagram.com/p/W_A1xlAacg/

singletonaccnt 12y ago

Please don't use "pedophiles" as a synonym for "sexual predator". It's not the same, and it's very stigmatizing for people who are attracted to children but decide to not act on their feelings. Here is a great thread on the parenting Stack Exchange that explains the issue: https://parenting.stackexchange.com/questions/18782/what-should-i-do-if-my-15-year-old-son-is-sexually-interested-in-younger-boys https://parenting.stackexchange.com/questions/18782/what-sho...

byuu 12y ago
Ah, you're absolutely right, thank you. Please accept my sincere apologies. I've corrected the wording in the original post.

skywhopper 12y ago

> You talk to a woman on an elevator... and > everyone assumes you're a sexual predator > because penis. A woman's fear of unwanted sexual advances, assault, or rape from an unknown male when she's in a vulnerable position is entirely reasonable. Many women receive unwelcome sexual advances on a regular basis. Most men have basically no point of personal reference for this fear, but we should try to be aware of how the woman might perceive us rather than whining about being unfairly slighted. According to the CDC, 18% of women report being raped at some point in their lives, versus 1.7% of men.[1] Given that, I think it's reasonable for women to feel a need for caution when dealing with strange men talking to them in elevators. [1] http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/sv-datasheet-a.pdf http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/sv-datasheet-a.pdf

mhogomchungu 12y ago
> A woman's fear of unwanted sexual advances, assault, or rape from an unknown male when she's in a vulnerable position is entirely reasonable. not always : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHCqz-J51IU&list=RDEHCqz-J51IU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHCqz-J51IU&list=RDEHCqz-J51...
byuu 12y ago
What's the percentage of validated rape allegations? Certainly it's non-zero. Day-after regrets, explaining pregnancy or seeking abortion approval from parents, etc. And what is the definition of rape? Groping on a subway, forced intercourse, or somewhere in between? 18% just sounds insanely high to me. That sounds like more like an epidemic. What does this ratio work out to in terms of chances any given one man is a rapist? If we ranked this as one person per allegation, that would be claiming that nearly one in five men are rapists, and that's patently absurd. If we had ~28 million male rapists in this country, our prisons would be absolutely overrun. Even if you claimed each rapist had ~10 victims, that's still an absurd number of male rapists. At any rate, it's still bullshit that I am treated like a sexual predator. As an asexual, I'm the last person on the planet you need to worry about. It's disgusting when people single out groups based on race, on female gender, on religion, on sexual orientation, etc. It should be just as disgusting to do it towards men with regards to sexual assault. Even with the absolutely ridiculous ~1:5 scenario, this woman was in a room with 800+ other men. There was zero chance she was in harm's way here.

gregd 12y ago

Let’s put ourselves into a position where we can be compassionate. As a woman in the tech industry and because of the utter lack of diversity, it is safe to assume that from the get go, attending conferences like this could be staggeringly intimidating. Viewing it from this perspective outlines how easily one could be hypersensitive to comments, looks, smiles because you’re already going into it with that perspective. Now add in a childhood that consisted of abuse by a father to a mother and the shame she felt in attending school, we can now begin to understand her reality. Adria has blockages in her life that are keeping her from living a life free from the burden she is carrying around. The very same blockages that may be contributing to what seems like a lack of empathy on her part. My only hope is that she seek out the right healer.

camdroid 12y ago
I'm truly sorry that she lost her job (as well as for her history - no one should have to go through that), but "hypersensitivity" doesn't really jive well with "Cards Against Humanity" and "public penis jokes."

rdtsc 12y ago

One of the giveaways of her character was when she wanted the HN post about him losing his job removed. What is the reason for that. Seems just like such an irrational move. Except it isn't. It isn't because she recognized Hank was using (perhaps inadvertently) her tactics. In her eyes he was telling the world he was a victim. There is nothing more frustrating than having her own methods turning against her. If anything, that cuts directly to her motivation and is a window into her character.

FireBeyond 12y ago

"Frankly, I'm really sick and tired of the pervasive image in America that all men are rapists and child molesters. You talk to a woman on an elevator, or you accidentally make eye contact with a child that isn't yours for a brief second, and everyone assumes you're a sexual predator because penis. Sure, I'll accept that men are more likely to be. But we're talking about 0.000011% of women versus 0.000018% of men here." Yes. In my "other life" I work in fire and EMS, and in uniform regularly have parents stop us and point us out to their kids - "If you're ever hurt or in trouble, you can ALWAYS go to these people, they're safe.", or the look of absolute trust when someone thrusts their sick child at you, hoping for you to make it better. And that, somewhat unsurprisingly, sometimes include seeing that child in undress. Take off my uniform. My partner spent several years in childcare, both at centers and as a nanny. We're out in public and she sees a crying child? She goes to it, talks to it, hugs it perhaps, reassures. Me? Not a chance. For better or worse, societal conditioning is that that is something I as a male /do/ /not/ /do/. Because it's nefarious that I'd even want to.