4 ms·

It's well and good to say this, and this is always my tactic anyways (although it's also how I naturally interact in any meeting). However, that only gets you

by jghn 12y ago

It's well and good to say this, and this is always my tactic anyways (although it's also how I naturally interact in any meeting). However, that only gets you so far. I have a dirty little secret, I'm really bad at a lot of the types of whiteboard questions which get asked and while i have a good natural intuition on things like big O that intuition doesn't translate well into actual words. So instead I end up in a situation where for instance I'm told by my boss that I could easily/quickly get a job most anywhere I wanted and yet fearful that I'd get turned away from Bob's CRUDapp shop. It is what it is and I realize these are the entry bars that our industry uses & I don't complain about it, but there's more to the equation than simply owning the room.

hiharryhere 12y ago
Ditto ditto ditto. Thanks for articulating this. It's exactly how I feel too.
manacit 12y ago
Couldn't agree more with this, thanks for articulating it.
thoman23 12y ago
Interesting. I wouldn't think you would need a "natural intuition" for big O. You just need to know what it is and how to determine it. It would be like having a "natural intuition" for long division.
- taeric 12y ago
  Big O is, in some senses, about giving a natural intuition for reasoning with equations. As Knuth says, "it significantly simplifies calculations because it allows us to be sloppy."[1] So, having a natural intuition for it could be a way of saying that one has a natural intuition for equations, in general. [1] https://micromath.wordpress.com/2008/04/14/donald-knuth-calculus-via-o-notation/ https://micromath.wordpress.com/2008/04/14/donald-knuth-calc...
  - jghn 12y ago
    "one has a natural intuition for equations, in general" Well, that's also true and I also have the same problem. What I'm really trying to capture is that there are a lot of things which I "get" in some fuzzy way but I have difficulty verbalizing it, even in my head. When I do manage to verbalize things, it often comes out sounding very non-academic. But what happens is that coworkers end up thinking I really know these things well, as long as I don't open my mouth much (and when I do, they think I'm just having a brain fart)
- jghn 12y ago
  I also had a natural intuition for mechanics in physics, I could never show my work but I always got the answer. The instructors always thought I was cheating. What I mean here is that I can tell you if something is going to be inherently fast or slow but when I'm put on the spot and asked for the O I freeze up. I can usually even describe in more colloquial english what the O is because I "know" it without knowing that something is NlogN or what have you. I admit it sounds fishy, but I work in areas where this stuff actually does matter and yet a) it's never a limitation of mine and b) I almost always flub those questions shrug. As I said, it is what it is - I don't expect people to interview me differently.
  - Dylan16807 12y ago
    That sounds really strange, because in common use you're going to experience 1, logn, n, nlogn, and n^2. That's an extremely small number of categories. How can you have a natural intuition for it and be able to describe it in colloquial english without the ability to pick out of five options?
    - jghn 12y ago
      That's why I said I admit it sounds fishy. I'd never make the claim that I'm not a weirdo :)
      - Dylan16807 12y ago
        Well I'm really curious about where your mind locks up and refuses to give the answer. If you can get the the stage of saying whether it's [much] faster or slower than the number of items then you've already done 98% of the work. Does something go wrong that makes you unable to memorize the math terms, but you could give them nicknames instead?
        jghn 12y ago
        Sometimes. I have trouble verbalizing a lot of mathematical concepts even though in an abstract sense people wouldn't realize that I couldn't explain why I was acting on things. Sometimes I can and yes, often then it's a difficulty pulling the correct terminology - now that I'm thinking about it perhaps it's because I'm already struggling to verbalize it anyways. Often if someone starts to lead me it all falls into place which I think somewhat goes along with what I just said here. Kind of like when you're struggling for someone's name, if someone starts to say it usually you remember it before they've even finished the first syllable.
serve_yay 12y ago
All you can do is go on interviews and see what works. And I think people should do this, even if they like their jobs. It's way too easy to buy into some rationale why you shouldn't - it's awkward, it's a waste of time, they might not like me, etc. You do it so that when you find the place you do want to work at, it's a no-brainer.
- jghn 12y ago
  Agreed entirely. I used to try to always guess what people were looking for. At some point I realized that it's better to just be yourself, you want them to like you for who you are and also no matter what you do someone is going to disagree with it.

by jghn 12y ago

hiharryhere 12y ago

Ditto ditto ditto. Thanks for articulating this. It's exactly how I feel too.

manacit 12y ago

Couldn't agree more with this, thanks for articulating it.

thoman23 12y ago

Interesting. I wouldn't think you would need a "natural intuition" for big O. You just need to know what it is and how to determine it. It would be like having a "natural intuition" for long division.

taeric 12y ago
Big O is, in some senses, about giving a natural intuition for reasoning with equations. As Knuth says, "it significantly simplifies calculations because it allows us to be sloppy."[1] So, having a natural intuition for it could be a way of saying that one has a natural intuition for equations, in general. [1] https://micromath.wordpress.com/2008/04/14/donald-knuth-calculus-via-o-notation/ https://micromath.wordpress.com/2008/04/14/donald-knuth-calc...
- jghn 12y ago
  "one has a natural intuition for equations, in general" Well, that's also true and I also have the same problem. What I'm really trying to capture is that there are a lot of things which I "get" in some fuzzy way but I have difficulty verbalizing it, even in my head. When I do manage to verbalize things, it often comes out sounding very non-academic. But what happens is that coworkers end up thinking I really know these things well, as long as I don't open my mouth much (and when I do, they think I'm just having a brain fart)
jghn 12y ago
I also had a natural intuition for mechanics in physics, I could never show my work but I always got the answer. The instructors always thought I was cheating. What I mean here is that I can tell you if something is going to be inherently fast or slow but when I'm put on the spot and asked for the O I freeze up. I can usually even describe in more colloquial english what the O is because I "know" it without knowing that something is NlogN or what have you. I admit it sounds fishy, but I work in areas where this stuff actually does matter and yet a) it's never a limitation of mine and b) I almost always flub those questions shrug. As I said, it is what it is - I don't expect people to interview me differently.
- Dylan16807 12y ago
  That sounds really strange, because in common use you're going to experience 1, logn, n, nlogn, and n^2. That's an extremely small number of categories. How can you have a natural intuition for it and be able to describe it in colloquial english without the ability to pick out of five options?
  - jghn 12y ago
    That's why I said I admit it sounds fishy. I'd never make the claim that I'm not a weirdo :)
    - Dylan16807 12y ago
      Well I'm really curious about where your mind locks up and refuses to give the answer. If you can get the the stage of saying whether it's [much] faster or slower than the number of items then you've already done 98% of the work. Does something go wrong that makes you unable to memorize the math terms, but you could give them nicknames instead?
      - jghn 12y ago
        Sometimes. I have trouble verbalizing a lot of mathematical concepts even though in an abstract sense people wouldn't realize that I couldn't explain why I was acting on things. Sometimes I can and yes, often then it's a difficulty pulling the correct terminology - now that I'm thinking about it perhaps it's because I'm already struggling to verbalize it anyways. Often if someone starts to lead me it all falls into place which I think somewhat goes along with what I just said here. Kind of like when you're struggling for someone's name, if someone starts to say it usually you remember it before they've even finished the first syllable.

serve_yay 12y ago

All you can do is go on interviews and see what works. And I think people should do this, even if they like their jobs. It's way too easy to buy into some rationale why you shouldn't - it's awkward, it's a waste of time, they might not like me, etc. You do it so that when you find the place you do want to work at, it's a no-brainer.

jghn 12y ago
Agreed entirely. I used to try to always guess what people were looking for. At some point I realized that it's better to just be yourself, you want them to like you for who you are and also no matter what you do someone is going to disagree with it.