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As the proud parent of a 3 month old, my concern is that exposing my daughter to small risks as she grows up could end in me going to jail. My wife and I joke t

• __xtrimsky 12y ago
  Yea I'm worried about that too. I was raised in France but live in the US, as an 8 year old I used to explore lot's of things. But I'm not actually sure I want to let my kids do the same, I remember doing a lot of stupid things too and I'm not sure any of this freedom taught me anything: - touching dog poop to enter a "ninja" club - entering many private properties - climbing dangerously high trees - crossing quadruple railroad tracks with TGVs passing on them. - putting my head next to a passing TGV (about 2 feet away), just to see how it feels and be scared - jumping off high ledges to see how far I can fall without hurting myself. - walking near ledges with a 2 story drop. - playing with explosive fireworks, big enough to blow up a couple of fingers. I could just buy these as a kid in France. This is just a small list, and I was honestly a very quiet, calm kid. I just had an active friend. And as I said, I don't remember this teaching me anything. Whereas I remember spending time programming (visual programming) at 8 years old, and that was awesome and taught me a lot.
  • delinka 12y ago
    "...I'm not actually sure I want to let my kids do the same..." But you turned out OK, right? Why rob them of the experiences that shaped you into the wonderful adult human being you are today?
    • __xtrimsky 12y ago
      because I don't believe it taught me anything. Even my memories aren't really happy memories, it's more like crazy memories. But as I am in the US now, I can't really even consider the same level of freedom, I would just end up in jail. I'll just try to give my kids as much freedom as I can. For my 2-year-old for example, when we are outside, I let her do anything as long as it's safe. Jumping into puddles, touching things covered in dirt, let her choose the streets she wants to walk on. At this age it's not really extreme yet :) BTW: I am a germaphobe. But as long as my own house is clean I'm ok with that. I just get my kid cleaned up as soon as she gets home. It is hard for me to watch her jump in puddles, but she is having so much fun :)
    • DanBC 12y ago
      > But you turned out OK, Survivor bias. The kids who get killed playing on railway lines don't grow into adults to make a post on HN about how they used to play on railway lines.
      • Dylan16807 12y ago
        I don't think the death rate is anywhere near high enough for survivor bias to be a major factor.
  • mrgriscom 12y ago
    It's easy to say in retrospect "those didn't teach me anything" but hard to imagine what you'd actually be like without those experiences. Ever seen this episode? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tapestry_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tapestry_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_G...
    • __xtrimsky 12y ago
      No, haven't really watched Star Trek except one movie. But I'll take a look at this episode, thanks :)
  • TeMPOraL 12y ago
    Sounds like infulential experiences, actually. I'm guessing you're not the kind of person that is afraid of everything. I probably wouldn't want my kid to do the railroad stunts, but I think I'll be totally fine with the rest. Especially fireworks is something I want my kid to play with. Rockets are cool.
    • __xtrimsky 12y ago
      I live in NY State, fireworks are forbidden, stupid new york law makers :( There are a lot of cool fireworks, I just thought there was a few a bit too dangerous being sold in France. But most of the ones I bought were safe and fun.
  • Swizec 12y ago
    > - jumping off high ledges to see how far I can fall without hurting myself. This is actually VERY IMPORTANT knowledge. Knowing how much your body can take and knowing how to fall in a way that increases how much your body can take could mean the difference between life and death in many situations. As the Grim Reaper said when asked about giving a sword to a kid who could cut themselves: "That will be an important lesson."
    • __xtrimsky 12y ago
      You are probably right. I knew I shouldn't jump from high places, but this actually increased the height I thought I could jump from.
    • omegaham 12y ago
      Yep. I remember growing up with one of those older playgrounds - there was a platform about 6 feet off the ground that had a rope climb on one side of it. The idea was to get a kid to climb up the wall with the rope. Six-year-old me was fascinated with jumping off of the thing. And yes, it hurt sometimes. I fell on my face, I fell on my ass, I took hard landings that jarred my bones. But I learned, and it got to the point where I was taking a running start before jumping off (Parents pulled the plug at that point). Kids should learn that sort of stuff. Ideally, you want to protect them from "kill / maim you with no warning" stuff like electrical transformers, the third rail on the subway, dangerous chemicals, etc. You want to inculcate a healthy fear of stuff that will cause lasting harm. And, well, everything else should be free game. My parents told me I was free to go wherever on the bike as long as I stayed away from the really busy roads and wore my helmet (again, kill / maim you with no warning). The funny thing, to me, is that many of the sports that kids play are far, far more dangerous than these childhood games. Football kills and cripples kids every single year, but it's organized, so it's okay!
      • Swizec 12y ago
        > Football kills and cripples kids every single year, but it's organized, so it's okay! Liability and blame. Parents are okay with letting their kids get injured if there is somebody to blame. Like the coach. Or some higher purpose "Oh they were training for a competition" But parents, and people in general, balk at personal responsibility.
  • Cthulhu_ 12y ago
    Do you really need someone to point out what you learned? > - touching dog poop to enter a "ninja" club Dog poop is icky and kids will make other kids do anything, and they will do anything. > - entering many private properties A lot of private property is not very tightly secured. > - climbing dangerously high trees You can climb trees. Might save your life one day. > - crossing quadruple railroad tracks with TGVs passing on them. > - putting my head next to a passing TGV (about 2 feet away), just to see how it feels and be scared TGVs are fast and dangerous. Also said railroad tracks may not be adequately secured. etc. What would you have learned if you had stayed indoors? Nothing.
    • __xtrimsky 12y ago
      The thing is, I new it was dangerous/icky before doing any of these things. I was just experiencing it instead of just knowing it. The only things I improved was my climbing skills. But I was doing a lot of climbing outside of this. My parents were letting me climb trees, and they did sign me up for acrobranch classes (real tree climbing, from bottom to top, not just the parks you explore that are man made), but I was safe, with a harness in these cases.
  • __xtrimsky 12y ago
    Anyone out here had some fun with Klick & Play? http://media.moddb.com/images/engines/1/1/29/krnl386_003.png http://media.moddb.com/images/engines/1/1/29/krnl386_003.png Or which later became Click & Create, and The Games Factory
  • eevilspock 12y ago
    > - crossing quadruple railroad tracks with TGVs passing on them. > - putting my head next to a passing TGV (about 2 feet away), just to see how it feels and be scared Do you know the statistics for children hurt by passing TGV trains, both now and back then? I suspect it is zero if not near zero.
    • marrs 12y ago
      Well, presuming you're right, since a negative outcome is pretty absolute, I guess the more important question is, is the gain worth the risk?
• kirsebaer 12y ago
  Safety-freaks get concerned about one story of a kid injuring themselves or getting kidnapped. Watch out that you aren't likewise getting worried about rare scare-stories. It's very unlikely that someone would call the police on your 5 year old playing outside. These stories are rare and outrageous, that's why they make the news. Let your kid play outside. Encourage other parents. It will make a difference in your community.
• sanderjd 12y ago
  A practical option is to move to small town in a more rural area that has a strong and tight-knit community. The type of place where your neighbors go to the same church you do. (Aside: the "we go to the same church" thing is something the non-religious have utterly failed to replace, in my experience.) I've often felt that a big part of this problem is that people just don't really know each other. That "some asshole" wouldn't call the police if they thought "hey, there's chrisBob's daughter, probably headed to the park to play". This is one of those trade-offs we've made to reap the many advantages of urban- and suburban-ization.
  • rayiner 12y ago
    I live in an urban neighborhood that is nonetheless quite tight-knit. The other day, we dropped my daughter's stuffed giraffe outside while coming in from the car. A few hours later, someone texted us: "Powell is at the front desk."
    • sanderjd 12y ago
      How wonderful. I shouldn't have painted with such a wide brush. I believe my point stands in the general case, but perhaps enough people will tell me stories like yours that I'll regain my faith in urban communities.
  • DanBC 12y ago
    > That "some asshole" wouldn't call the police if they thought "hey, there's chrisBob's daughter, probably headed to the park to play". We have plenty of examples where people thought "Hey, that's $NAME, they would not abuse children" and then reports from children of abuse from $NAME were discounted.
    • sanderjd 12y ago
      Sorry, but I really don't see how that is relevant to my point that being part of a community where people know you and your children lowers the risk that letting your children roam independently is perceived to be (or is actually) negligent. Your thing seems to be a different problem. It's good that people trust people they know. It's bad that people betray that trust in sometimes horrible ways, but the solution isn't to be suspicious of everyone… Right?
• rdtsc 12y ago
  No joke. Someone called the cops on my friend for having his 8 year old kid outside, playing in the cul-de-sac of a safe suburban neighborhood.
  • rhino369 12y ago
    I want to slap that person and ask why the hell do you think anyone live sin a suburban cul de sac if not for this!
    • rdtsc 12y ago
      It could have been a spiteful neighbor who took advantage of the irrationality and craziness surrounding "children being hurt". Cut the yard too close to the fence -- that's a call to child protective services. It caused a lot of shameful conversions, calls to work from police, visits to the house, and stuff like that. And they never figured out yet who it was...
• specialist 12y ago
  It happens. My son threw a conniption fit in public. Leaving the zoo, heading back to the car. I had him under one arm (kicking & screaming) and my "dad bag" under the other. A thoughtful neighbor yelled down at me "Stop beating your kid! I've called the police!" Okay then. I put my kid the car (leaving door open), sat on the curb, and waited for the cop. Last thing I want is an AMBER alert and then get pulled over. Then I'd be late for the parent handoff, and then the fur really flies. Older (experienced) cop shows up. My son's still grumpy. Cop sizes up situation and sends us on our way. The 15 minutes served as a pretty good cool down. In general, abused kids do not throw tantrums in public, normal parents keep their cool when their kids just need a nap.
  • gagege 12y ago
    Anyone who would call the cops when a kid is kicking and screaming must have zero experience with kids. That's just what kids do.
    • dhimes 12y ago
      It would be nice if there were some way to penalize the person wasting the cop's (and your) time. As with spam, it's easy to do because the cost is zero.
      • scrumper 12y ago
        It's an offence in the UK ("Wasting police time"). I'm not sure how often it's prosecuted and I very much doubt that this particular case would meet the standard.
      • DaFranker 12y ago
        That would be all sorts of counterproductive, starting with the simple fact that maybe the person had a reasonable 20%-likelihood guess and considered that high enough to bring police into it. Move just one step up and you've got people who are almost certain, but have a doubt, and since they'll get fined/punished if they're wrong then they don't call anyone, so the kid keeps being beaten and no cops ever know about it. Move another step up, and you've got more parents who would otherwise not have beaten their kids start falling down the slippery slope because no one is willing to face the potential consequences if they wrongly report a kid-beater. That's just the first three nodes of a N>10^8 causal graph. Wasting police time is an issue, yes. It would be even more of a waste of time trying to establish whether this person had reasonable cause to call the police or was just trolling. Not to mention the other consequences I touch on above.
• rayiner 12y ago
  Move to an urban neighborhood with lots of minority families. I used to live in a working-class hispanic neighborhood, and it was great. Tons of families around, children running around, and no busy-body with a $1,000 stroller is going to flip out if you look away while your kid is at the park.
• harryh 12y ago
  How many people let their kids walk home from school? How many of them actually ever have to deal with law enforcement because of it? Even the parents discussed in the link don't appear to have gotten in any serious trouble. Articles like this are written because people like to talk about them and they drive page views. Don't overestimate how real or serious the threat actually is based on sensational journalism.
  • DanBC 12y ago
    These are fundamental human rights that are being interfered with. It's a big thing when agencies deny people their human rights and Americans should be concerned about this. Here it's articles 10, 12, and 16. And the children have rights (although the US, along with Sudan, haven't ratified the rights of the child). Here the relevant articles are 3, 5, 9, and 12.
• stcredzero 12y ago
  As the proud parent of a 3 month old, my concern is that exposing my daughter to small risks as she grows up could end in me going to jail. My wife and I joke that our kid isn't allowed to walk to the park alone until she can outrun the cops. I grew up in a rural (ish) part of the rust belt northeast. I was still in grade school, and my parents and the parents of my friends would send us out to play, and we'd go out miles into the woods, past the end of the paved roads, in the dead of winter, and stay there all day! (We were very well bundled up by mom, feeling kinda spherical by the end of the bundling process.) When my parents were growing up in Korea, such things were "normal." (1) My dad has stories about he used to roam Seoul with his friends and devise ways to sneak into movie theaters or read books in bookstores until the shop owners kicked them out and proceed to the next one. (1) - "Normal," with the caveat that they also remember the Imperial Japanese occupation and the Korean War.