12 ms·

‘Unsubstantiated’ child neglect finding for free-range parents

145 points by tokenadult 12y ago

tokenadult 12y ago
The legal background of this case from Maryland must have something to do with the weird result so far: "[Maryland Child Protective Services] officials have said they are guided in part by a state law that says children younger than 8 must be left with a reliable person who is at least 13. The law addresses children locked or confined in a building, dwelling, motor vehicle or other enclosed space, but does not mention children outdoors on a walk." My state, Minnesota, doesn't appear to have such a law, and it doesn't appear to have CPS officers who would give such a crazy interpretation to a comparable law. I have certainly had my children walking all over my neighborhood (a full mile from my house in either of two directions, for shopping or for trips to the library) when the oldest in the party was ten years old, for most of the last decade. It is very routine for my children to be out walking in our neighborhood, even during school hours, as we are a homeschooling family. This story is news in part because it is very unusual. AFTER EDIT: Other reporting on this same story, with varying emphasis on other details: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/03/02/parents-investigated-letting-children-walk-alone/24265981/ http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/03/02/parents... http://www.wusa9.com/story/news/local/maryland/2015/03/02/free-range-parents-fight-child-neglect-ruling/24287953/ http://www.wusa9.com/story/news/local/maryland/2015/03/02/fr... https://ca.shine.yahoo.com/-free-range--parents-under-investigation-for-child-neglect-will-appeal-cps-decision-143030305.html https://ca.shine.yahoo.com/-free-range--parents-under-invest... A letter to the editor of the local paper reporting the story points out that children can be required to walk that far to school in the same state: http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/children-were-caught-walking-at-the-wrong-time/2015/03/03/9c2d2962-c1b7-11e4-a188-8e4971d37a8d_story.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/children-were-caught-...
- schoen 12y ago
  I thought this map http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-462091/How-children-lost-right-roam-generations.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-462091/How-children-... (which was created in an earlier round of reporting on this topic) was quite impressive. It shows, on a single map, how far each generation of children in a particular family was allowed to walk by their parents. (Spoiler alert: there's a decrease by factors of 6, 2, and 3 in successive generations.)
  - spinlock 12y ago
    yeah, my grandparent used to put my dad on a 50 mile bus ride to stay with his grandparents during the week. we used to play outside -- probably 2 mile radius -- all the time.
  - nitrogen 12y ago
    It would help if we started using density-adjusted distance units [1]. Possible example unit: if there are 10,000 people per square mile in a given area, then one mile could be sqrt(10000), or 100 people. But if there are 100kp/sq.mi., then one mile equals ~316 people. So the question is, how far are children allowed to wander in units of people passed? Alternatively, how many doors can children pass within their permitted radius? [1] I also think this would be useful for comparing commute times.
    - schoen 12y ago
      That's an interesting calculation. People might have different intuitions about whether higher density makes the kids safer or less safe.
- bmelton 12y ago
  Just for clarification, the "children younger than 8 must be left with a reliable person who is at least 13" is an attachment to a law that attempts to define the regulations for who is and is not allowed to be considered valid as a babysitter. I know this because my own daughter who has been responsible for years, but only recently turned 13, investigated the matter herself when she was asked to babysit a child while my wife spoke at a conference (and the mother of the child attended said conference) in an adjoining room. I explained that the situation was a little bit different in that there were plenty of adults one room over, so by the letter of the law, the children weren't being left "at home alone", as the law aims to prevent against, but that she was probably violating the law by not having the required business license and insurance required, which is necessary in Maryland for caring for even a single child.
  - m_mueller 12y ago
    Your daughter seems like a great child who can think for herself and is both curious and careful. Kudos!
    - bmelton 12y ago
      Thanks! It was a surprise. I had Googled the law, just to know, and when I asked her if she was comfortable with the job (it was her first pseudo-babysitting gig), I was shocked that she had also Googled it as well. It is indeed a source of pride though that her an I often have conversations on serious/complicated matters (law, politics, the Constitution, computer science) and that those conversations are increasingly less one-sided.
andyl 12y ago
When I was 12 we'd go on hundred mile bike rides and be gone for days. No cellphones. 30 years later, it felt as if my 12 year olds were prisoners in an electronic cage. From what I can tell, this is a worldwide pattern. Friends in EUR and AUS report similar phenomenon. Times change. I hope it is for the best.
- gbog 12y ago
  Well, you see in China you have both ends: some kids are still letting their mother do their laundry at 30. But at the same time some 7yo kids play day long by themselve in the alleys of Beijing, and their parents may not have a precise idea of where they are (this is personal experience, one of these kids, the son of a street tailor, was best friend of my son for a while). You also have 15yo kids already working at factories during holidays, and they build a full society of working teenagers (also personal experience). So, well, no, this is not a worldwide pattern. It may be a pattern in developped countries. And I'm all for fighting against it, and encourage my 5yo boy to go out of our house by himself (we live in an alley with only very few cars).
  - seanmcdirmid 12y ago
    In Japan, kids are strongly encouraged to get to school by themselves through walking and public transit from 1st grade on.
    - mamcx 12y ago
      Ja! Thats nothing We have walked alone to primary school (and kinder, if close) when were bombs in Medellin at the worse era (1980-1998?), with gang and killers and drug addicts. I get robbed by more than 20 kids (at the same time, not exaggerating) when have 12-13, still go to school alone next day. Same after a bomb explode 5 blocks away. And shottings next door at the school. Colombians are in-famous for be very resilient. First-world kids this days ;) P.D: Still normal in Colombia, and now is far more safe. However this and another annoying behaviors are getting imported from USA and now we have all the typical problems of USA children, mainly at more rich families...
codezero 12y ago
I used to walk to school with my sisters when I was 6 years old and they were 8 & 11. We walked over a mile.
mikerichards 12y ago
Back in the 70s there didn't have to be a name like "free-range". It was just playing. We were probably around 7 or so, riding around on our Huffys, playing in the woods, jumping in fiber glass in new construction, etc.. I don't see kids running around outside that much anymore. I think there's a lot of scare-mongering by the media for things that have always been present, and a lot of nosy, do-gooders with too much time on their hands. That said, as a parent of a 2 year old, I can't really see myself letting my kid in 4 years run around without much supervision. I guess one difference was that we always had our little gang with us...at least 3 or 4 of us always together.
- orbitingpluto 12y ago
  Well in the 80s, the term was latchkey kid. There was a bit of a stigma to being one in Stepfordish suburbia, as it meant either both parents had to work (and therefor you were poor) or you were the product of a broken home.
  - gwern 12y ago
    No, latchkey kid isn't quite right. 'latchkey' was for kids who came home to an empty house - no mom waiting for them with snacks or to check they were doing their homework, the stereotype being that the latchkey kid would pig out on junk food and watch TV. eg I had a stay-at-home mom and was allowed to roam with friends, so while I might've been somewhat free-range, I was not a latchkey kid.
  - mikerichards 12y ago
    It was neither in my case. I don't remember any of the mothers working.
  - jawngee 12y ago
    It might be a matter of local experience, but in junior high school (late 80's), if your parents weren't divorced or both parents didn't work, you were the odd man out. Like there was something weird going on with you. The divorced kids were definitely the "cool kids" that year by a long stretch.
- 12y ago
unavoidable 12y ago
Ah, free-range parents. Or as we used to call them, parents.
- malkia 12y ago
  Pleasure to meet you! I "progressed" from a "free-range" kid to a "closed-range helicopter parent".
  - cesarbs 12y ago
    Why? Honest question. I was very sheltered as a child and today I try not to be so with my daughter, because I know the consequences of growing up being sheltered. I really push for her to be independent, to deal with her own problems, and to go through the pain/sadness without much caressing when something bad happens (say, she hurts herself while playing and it's not really a major injury that requires going to the hospital).
    - malkia 12y ago
      Because I need to become a better parent I guess, or maybe different one. I possibly do it, and this is simply - not letting him go free on the street while we cross it, in the parking, and always making sure I can see him while he's playing at the playground, and at the same time I so much want to tell him my favourite story how me and my one year older cousin walked 25 kilometers from one city to another just to get my plastic truck (we were 5-6 years old). I'm afraid, because I've succumbed to the peer pressure, media, and let myself just go this route that everyone around takes, or at least shows that it takes. I want him to roam free, but then if something happens, even if it's not a big deal, I'll feel bad, and I won't be strong enough to reply to all questions/answers/attitude from everyone else. He really has much more freedom back in Bulgaria where he goes every summer...
      - mod 12y ago
        I want to raise my kids in a rural setting to avoid all of this. I imagine in most rural settings the community attitude would be the opposite of what you mentioned.
pjmorris 12y ago
I went and looked up my old (1970's) elementary school walk... between 1 and 1.2 miles.
- acdha 12y ago
  I just did the same thing for the late-80s/early 90s: elementary school was 0.8 & then 0.5mi (often bicycle on city streets for extra child-endangerment paranoia) and by middle school that was 1.9 miles along a major road past the mall. Nobody we knew even blinked an eye…
  - eru 12y ago
    I remember we even had bicycling lessons in primary school to encourage independent biking to school (in Germany).
    - acdha 12y ago
      I'm sure California was a bit of an outlier nationally but we had similar encouragement citing environmental and health grounds. It's an easy sell when the weather's fine for cycling roughly 360 days a year.
chromaton 12y ago
Notice here that there has been no arrest, no charges, and no trial. Yet the family in question still had to go through a very stressful period of time AND has an open file with the county CPS, who threatened to take the kids away. I was in a very similar situation for almost the exact same thing. I'm happy Georgia DFACS did not get involved, though being arrested still sucks.
- m_mueller 12y ago
  This right here is the number one reason why I'd never take a job in the US. I'd be scared to either be forced to * become a helicopter parent (and thus have less independent children). * run the risk of loosing my children and/or go to jail. How the hell did you people let it come that far? I.e. how do people keep voting for these moron politician with their war on XYZ narrative. Me and my wife come from two countries where parents are actually pushed to make their children more independant - Switzerland and Japan. In Switzerland, children are usually sent to Kindergarden on their own, by foot, at least if the neighbourhood is safe (note: requires a city structure where a drive isn't necessary to get anywhere). All parents do is give them a lunchbox, a visibility triangle and a kiss on the head. [1]: This is how you'll meet them on the roads. There's signs and TV programs everywhere before first day of school to warn drivers of new children on the streets - after 1-2 weeks it's not necessary anymore and we don't have a higher number of child accidents to my knowledge. In Japan, small children are accompanied not by their parents, but by older children, usually 3-4 years older. Their morning meetup is organized and supervised by elderly volunteers who keep watch at the meetup point. It both teaches responsibility to the 9+ year olds and first independance from adults to the youngest. How come the US doesn't use studies from abroad when doing CP regulation? Boggles my mind. [1] http://www.baselland.ch/fileadmin/baselland/pics/docs/uebrige/mit_pol/2007/2007d/529_2g.jpg http://www.baselland.ch/fileadmin/baselland/pics/docs/uebrig...
  - mikerichards 12y ago
    Switzerland might be different, but let's be honest, many of the countries that surround it don't have political cultures that instill independence in its citizens...especially compared to the U.S.
malkia 12y ago
Free range was always for me back in Bulgaria. As soon as I reached 5 or 6 I was walking through the city, staying sometimes alone at home, walking from school, etc. Was I alone, nope - almost every kid was like that. Just take a look at the kids movies, and books... You know that's funny - cause my 7 year old really like Ron Roy's A-Z Mysteries - http://www.ronroy.com/atoz/books.php http://www.ronroy.com/atoz/books.php http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_to_Z_Mysteries http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_to_Z_Mysteries The kids are nine years old - and do really roam by themselves alone... One of my favourite movies "Verano Azul" (Blue Summer) was real-hit in Bulgaria, and quotes from it are still used to this day (middle man, pirahna, etc.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E47_QWOXrMA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E47_QWOXrMA And a lot of the bulgarian kid movies were about kids free roaming, exploring, interacting while parents are on the beach, totally not caring about them. It wasn't that bad really! Then again, when comes to me - nowadays I'm real helicopter - gaaaah!
chrisbennet 12y ago
Is the world that much more dangerous than it was in the 70's or is the media just making us more aware of every rare but horrible thing that happens? Do people/politicians then feel they "need to do something" even if it's the wrong thing?
- spc476 12y ago
  I'm thinking the 24-hour news cycle has some part to play in this. They have to fill the time with something, anything and so what might have been a local story fifty years ago is now national news.
- shit_parade 12y ago
  Statistically the world is dramatically safer by almost anyway you slice it.
A_COMPUTER 12y ago
I know more than one person who is in complete support of these laws. You can't argue with them, you can only outnumber them if you're lucky. I had some friends who worked weird hours when their two children were very young, and they were repeatedly harassed by child services because the same person repeatedly turned them in no matter how many times CPS determined there was no problem. By law CPS were required to act on every report. Probably a good idea, but it enables harassment in some cases.
- chiph 12y ago
  Crazy people are crazy... I worked in an office where a manager's ex-wife would swear out warrants against him. By the third or fourth time, the detectives were like: "She's done it again, Steve. We need to go downtown and fill out the paperwork, and then we'll drive you back."
kstrauser 12y ago
Maryland has a new Governor as of January. If I were him, I would be humiliated and furious that a state agency declared Maryland unsafe for children. That's not the kind of image you want to project. I've already written this in a letter to his office. If you agree with me and think he should use his executive powers to reign in a renegade agency under his authority, please consider doing the same.
- anigbrowl 12y ago
  To be more persuasive on this important issue, ask him to rein it in. /PSA
  - kstrauser 12y ago
    My phone has something against reigndeer, but only when it's reining outside.
    - anonbanker 12y ago
      Leave this stuff on reddit. Many of us initially came to HN to avoid things like this.
- bmelton 12y ago
  To be fair to Hogan, this all began well before he took office, and hence, it can't be his policies that are to blame for this action. That said, it's definitely good advice to bring to his attention, so I'll send an email or stop by the next time I'm in Annapolis.
  - snowwrestler 12y ago
    I don't think the OP was blaming Hogan, but rather recognizing the opportunity his election represents. Since Reagan, Republicans have liked to campaign against government overreach. Well, here is a gift-wrapped example for Hogan to work on.
    - 12y ago
shit_parade 12y ago
What a comedy, and the State strikes again, better behave citizens and do as your government tells you or else they will take away your children and/or put you in jail. You've been warned, and a file has been opened, the State is always watching.
IgorPartola 12y ago
So I expect there will be a lot of "when I was a kid we did this all the time" type stuff in te replies here. Before jumping on that bandwagon (I took lots of walks like this in a city far less friendly in some ways), let me say that I think at least the question deserves to be asked. Then again, the way this happened, the parents seem to have no recourse. They are "found" to be neglecting, yet there is no actual trial. Perhaps they should sue the state over libel, and settle this once and for all. I am sure if they win they could claim quite a bit of damage to their character not to mention inconvenience of having the nation watch their personal decisions. Best of all, that would create a precedent which can then be referenced. As is, this is just an administrative record. Also, if this is neglect, then what is withholding vaccines for deadly diseases from your child? What actually puts you in more danger?
- robotresearcher 12y ago
  They were not found to be neglecting. The finding was that the allegation of neglect was unsubstantiated. That's totally different. The parents quite understandably wanted to be absolved. It's a shame they weren't. But they were not found guilty of anything.
  - IgorPartola 12y ago
    I see. I misread the article. Thanks for the clarification.
    - bmelton 12y ago
      Honestly, it's debatable whether or not you did misread it. The way it reads, they weren't found innocent of child neglect, they were found to be held responsible for the unsubstantiated child negligence charges. Their names will be placed in a file, and if the cops responsible pick up the kids again for equally unsubstantiated claims, it will trigger a more thorough investigation. At present, for the next five years, they're on the CPS equivalent of "probation".
      - deleted 12y ago
andrewstuart2 12y ago
Maryland Family Law Article, Section 5-701: > “Unsubstantiated” means a finding that there is an insufficient amount of evidence to support a finding of indicated or ruled out. There was not sufficient evidence to support either confirmation of abuse or to rule it out. That's all this ruling means. [1] http://mgaleg.maryland.gov/webmga/frmStatutesText.aspx?article=gfl&section=5-701&ext=html&session=2015RS&tab=subject5 http://mgaleg.maryland.gov/webmga/frmStatutesText.aspx?artic...
- diyorgasms 12y ago
  What CPS is asking is that the parents prove a negative. The burden of proof should be on CPS to make a claim and offer evidence. What are the parents supposed to say? "And on the thirtieth of November, we spent an hour not neglecting our children"? If not enough evidence exists to determine that neglect was happening, then these parents should not have CPS retaining a file on their "unsubstantiated" neglect for the next 5 years.
brent_noorda 12y ago
I was investigated for allowing my child to play in the schoolyard across the street without shoes on. The investigation went on for weeks and was extremely stressful, for both parent and child.
iopq 12y ago
When I was 10 years old I would stay out until 1 am or later hanging out with friends. I'd be outside most of the day without supervision.
brandonmenc 12y ago
Another story illustrating the disturbing trend of mandatory bureaucratic process. Entities run by expert systems instead of humans - CPS seems to be one of the worst offenders. When people executing the law do it without discretion, watch out.
WalterBright 12y ago
The thing is, we live in an incredibly safe society. But our brains are hardwired to look for danger, and if there isn't any, we invent imaginary ones and exaggerate what little danger remains.
jbarham 12y ago
As a Canadian who relocated to Australia four years ago via California, it's refreshing to live in a society where the default expectation is that adults will behave as such. Consider: * it's perfectly legal in Australia for adults to drink alcohol in public parks * heck, your local council government will probably also have installed gas BBQs in your public park so you can cook sausages to enjoy with your beer * no idiotic and humiliating TSA-style security theatre on domestic flights in Australia * children walk to school all the time by themselves without their parents being investigated for neglect etc. Government provided BBQs are inconceivable in California since (gasp!) the hot plate may burn someone and the lawyers wouldn't like that. Similarly something as basic as providing public toilets at a place like Huntington Beach (in Orange County!) is a fiasco as the stalls don't have doors, because they might provide privacy for drug addicts shooting up. For the 99% who aren't drug addicts, tough luck, a right to privacy while you do your business obviously isn't worth anything anyway. I could go on, but from a distance the American claim to be the "land of the free and the home of the brave" is increasingly farcical.
- empressplay 12y ago
  I too am a Canadian who emigrated to Australia and despite the occasional scare-mongering from the Coalition I enjoy the more laid-back atmosphere here. Even going back to Canada to visit now (never mind the US) I find it to now be much more uptight, suspicious and unwelcoming than what I've become used to in Australia.
- foolfoolz 12y ago
  as a Californian I must defend the availability of our public bbqs - which are numerous - especially in beach cities. I can even go on my counties website and find parks with bathrooms and bbqs listed. drinking in the park is rarer, but still allowed in certain parks. we are still the land of the free (bbq)
  - jbarham 12y ago
    Apologies, I see from e.g. http://ocparks.com/parks/ted/amenities http://ocparks.com/parks/ted/amenities that you are correct. I see though, that at least in OC, you still have to provide charcoal briquettes for your BBQs, whereas the Aussies just push a button to turn on the gas.
joesmo 12y ago
Is there any wonder why kids are becoming increasingly obese nowadays when their parents won't allow them to walk anywhere? Not to mention all the other ill effects detailed in the other comments.
gbog 12y ago
This article is quite interesting, and I hope to let my kids have this kind of environment. I'd like to underline here that this kind of parenting is very different from the one shown in a recent post about some 11yo kids watching Alien at home [1]. Watching horror movies is safe for the body, and not recommended for the emotional brain [2]. Exact opposite of these wild playgrounds. 1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9127761 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9127761 2. Why? It seems obvious to me. Seeing very frightening or disgusting things in movies may make you overreact when facing similar disgusts in real life, or being too easily afraid. After seeing a horror movie as a kid you are afraid of monsters below your bed, afraid of darkness which may have monsters or ghosts. This is not the kind of fear that is even slightly useful. I suppose most of the ghosts stories of the past were actually useful: they prevented kids and adults from going out in the night, where they could be endangered for real. But nowadays no wolves haunt the nights anymore. It may be rational to induce a little bit of fear for cars when walking, so kids keep at safe distance. But I see no reason to raise the fears of the unknown and foreign as done in most horror movie. Another example is food: fear your plate and you're stomack will be in despair and show (either anorexia or obesity), trust your plate and you're stomack will do it's work properly: which is to keep you in normal shape. (I was so annoyed by this american girl always asking what was the dish made of in the plate: you're in China my girl, dishes are made of hundreds of mysterious things, including pig oil, msg, sichuan pepper, etc. But check the other girls beside you, they're fit, they love to eat, do it all the time, so please just eat this and enjoy it...)

145 points by tokenadult 12y ago

The legal background of this case from Maryland must have something to do with the weird result so far: "[Maryland Child Protective Services] officials have said they are guided in part by a state law that says children younger than 8 must be left with a reliable person who is at least 13. The law addresses children locked or confined in a building, dwelling, motor vehicle or other enclosed space, but does not mention children outdoors on a walk." My state, Minnesota, doesn't appear to have such a law, and it doesn't appear to have CPS officers who would give such a crazy interpretation to a comparable law. I have certainly had my children walking all over my neighborhood (a full mile from my house in either of two directions, for shopping or for trips to the library) when the oldest in the party was ten years old, for most of the last decade. It is very routine for my children to be out walking in our neighborhood, even during school hours, as we are a homeschooling family. This story is news in part because it is very unusual. AFTER EDIT: Other reporting on this same story, with varying emphasis on other details: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/03/02/parents-investigated-letting-children-walk-alone/24265981/ http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/03/02/parents... http://www.wusa9.com/story/news/local/maryland/2015/03/02/free-range-parents-fight-child-neglect-ruling/24287953/ http://www.wusa9.com/story/news/local/maryland/2015/03/02/fr... https://ca.shine.yahoo.com/-free-range--parents-under-investigation-for-child-neglect-will-appeal-cps-decision-143030305.html https://ca.shine.yahoo.com/-free-range--parents-under-invest... A letter to the editor of the local paper reporting the story points out that children can be required to walk that far to school in the same state: http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/children-were-caught-walking-at-the-wrong-time/2015/03/03/9c2d2962-c1b7-11e4-a188-8e4971d37a8d_story.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/children-were-caught-...

schoen 12y ago
I thought this map http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-462091/How-children-lost-right-roam-generations.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-462091/How-children-... (which was created in an earlier round of reporting on this topic) was quite impressive. It shows, on a single map, how far each generation of children in a particular family was allowed to walk by their parents. (Spoiler alert: there's a decrease by factors of 6, 2, and 3 in successive generations.)
- spinlock 12y ago
  yeah, my grandparent used to put my dad on a 50 mile bus ride to stay with his grandparents during the week. we used to play outside -- probably 2 mile radius -- all the time.
- nitrogen 12y ago
  It would help if we started using density-adjusted distance units [1]. Possible example unit: if there are 10,000 people per square mile in a given area, then one mile could be sqrt(10000), or 100 people. But if there are 100kp/sq.mi., then one mile equals ~316 people. So the question is, how far are children allowed to wander in units of people passed? Alternatively, how many doors can children pass within their permitted radius? [1] I also think this would be useful for comparing commute times.
  - schoen 12y ago
    That's an interesting calculation. People might have different intuitions about whether higher density makes the kids safer or less safe.
bmelton 12y ago
Just for clarification, the "children younger than 8 must be left with a reliable person who is at least 13" is an attachment to a law that attempts to define the regulations for who is and is not allowed to be considered valid as a babysitter. I know this because my own daughter who has been responsible for years, but only recently turned 13, investigated the matter herself when she was asked to babysit a child while my wife spoke at a conference (and the mother of the child attended said conference) in an adjoining room. I explained that the situation was a little bit different in that there were plenty of adults one room over, so by the letter of the law, the children weren't being left "at home alone", as the law aims to prevent against, but that she was probably violating the law by not having the required business license and insurance required, which is necessary in Maryland for caring for even a single child.
- m_mueller 12y ago
  Your daughter seems like a great child who can think for herself and is both curious and careful. Kudos!
  - bmelton 12y ago
    Thanks! It was a surprise. I had Googled the law, just to know, and when I asked her if she was comfortable with the job (it was her first pseudo-babysitting gig), I was shocked that she had also Googled it as well. It is indeed a source of pride though that her an I often have conversations on serious/complicated matters (law, politics, the Constitution, computer science) and that those conversations are increasingly less one-sided.

andyl 12y ago

When I was 12 we'd go on hundred mile bike rides and be gone for days. No cellphones. 30 years later, it felt as if my 12 year olds were prisoners in an electronic cage. From what I can tell, this is a worldwide pattern. Friends in EUR and AUS report similar phenomenon. Times change. I hope it is for the best.

gbog 12y ago
Well, you see in China you have both ends: some kids are still letting their mother do their laundry at 30. But at the same time some 7yo kids play day long by themselve in the alleys of Beijing, and their parents may not have a precise idea of where they are (this is personal experience, one of these kids, the son of a street tailor, was best friend of my son for a while). You also have 15yo kids already working at factories during holidays, and they build a full society of working teenagers (also personal experience). So, well, no, this is not a worldwide pattern. It may be a pattern in developped countries. And I'm all for fighting against it, and encourage my 5yo boy to go out of our house by himself (we live in an alley with only very few cars).
- seanmcdirmid 12y ago
  In Japan, kids are strongly encouraged to get to school by themselves through walking and public transit from 1st grade on.
  - mamcx 12y ago
    Ja! Thats nothing We have walked alone to primary school (and kinder, if close) when were bombs in Medellin at the worse era (1980-1998?), with gang and killers and drug addicts. I get robbed by more than 20 kids (at the same time, not exaggerating) when have 12-13, still go to school alone next day. Same after a bomb explode 5 blocks away. And shottings next door at the school. Colombians are in-famous for be very resilient. First-world kids this days ;) P.D: Still normal in Colombia, and now is far more safe. However this and another annoying behaviors are getting imported from USA and now we have all the typical problems of USA children, mainly at more rich families...

codezero 12y ago

I used to walk to school with my sisters when I was 6 years old and they were 8 & 11. We walked over a mile.

mikerichards 12y ago

Back in the 70s there didn't have to be a name like "free-range". It was just playing. We were probably around 7 or so, riding around on our Huffys, playing in the woods, jumping in fiber glass in new construction, etc.. I don't see kids running around outside that much anymore. I think there's a lot of scare-mongering by the media for things that have always been present, and a lot of nosy, do-gooders with too much time on their hands. That said, as a parent of a 2 year old, I can't really see myself letting my kid in 4 years run around without much supervision. I guess one difference was that we always had our little gang with us...at least 3 or 4 of us always together.

orbitingpluto 12y ago
Well in the 80s, the term was latchkey kid. There was a bit of a stigma to being one in Stepfordish suburbia, as it meant either both parents had to work (and therefor you were poor) or you were the product of a broken home.
- gwern 12y ago
  No, latchkey kid isn't quite right. 'latchkey' was for kids who came home to an empty house - no mom waiting for them with snacks or to check they were doing their homework, the stereotype being that the latchkey kid would pig out on junk food and watch TV. eg I had a stay-at-home mom and was allowed to roam with friends, so while I might've been somewhat free-range, I was not a latchkey kid.
- mikerichards 12y ago
  It was neither in my case. I don't remember any of the mothers working.
- jawngee 12y ago
  It might be a matter of local experience, but in junior high school (late 80's), if your parents weren't divorced or both parents didn't work, you were the odd man out. Like there was something weird going on with you. The divorced kids were definitely the "cool kids" that year by a long stretch.
12y ago

unavoidable 12y ago

Ah, free-range parents. Or as we used to call them, parents.

malkia 12y ago
Pleasure to meet you! I "progressed" from a "free-range" kid to a "closed-range helicopter parent".
- cesarbs 12y ago
  Why? Honest question. I was very sheltered as a child and today I try not to be so with my daughter, because I know the consequences of growing up being sheltered. I really push for her to be independent, to deal with her own problems, and to go through the pain/sadness without much caressing when something bad happens (say, she hurts herself while playing and it's not really a major injury that requires going to the hospital).
  - malkia 12y ago
    Because I need to become a better parent I guess, or maybe different one. I possibly do it, and this is simply - not letting him go free on the street while we cross it, in the parking, and always making sure I can see him while he's playing at the playground, and at the same time I so much want to tell him my favourite story how me and my one year older cousin walked 25 kilometers from one city to another just to get my plastic truck (we were 5-6 years old). I'm afraid, because I've succumbed to the peer pressure, media, and let myself just go this route that everyone around takes, or at least shows that it takes. I want him to roam free, but then if something happens, even if it's not a big deal, I'll feel bad, and I won't be strong enough to reply to all questions/answers/attitude from everyone else. He really has much more freedom back in Bulgaria where he goes every summer...
    - mod 12y ago
      I want to raise my kids in a rural setting to avoid all of this. I imagine in most rural settings the community attitude would be the opposite of what you mentioned.

pjmorris 12y ago

I went and looked up my old (1970's) elementary school walk... between 1 and 1.2 miles.

acdha 12y ago
I just did the same thing for the late-80s/early 90s: elementary school was 0.8 & then 0.5mi (often bicycle on city streets for extra child-endangerment paranoia) and by middle school that was 1.9 miles along a major road past the mall. Nobody we knew even blinked an eye…
- eru 12y ago
  I remember we even had bicycling lessons in primary school to encourage independent biking to school (in Germany).
  - acdha 12y ago
    I'm sure California was a bit of an outlier nationally but we had similar encouragement citing environmental and health grounds. It's an easy sell when the weather's fine for cycling roughly 360 days a year.

chromaton 12y ago

Notice here that there has been no arrest, no charges, and no trial. Yet the family in question still had to go through a very stressful period of time AND has an open file with the county CPS, who threatened to take the kids away. I was in a very similar situation for almost the exact same thing. I'm happy Georgia DFACS did not get involved, though being arrested still sucks.

m_mueller 12y ago
This right here is the number one reason why I'd never take a job in the US. I'd be scared to either be forced to * become a helicopter parent (and thus have less independent children). * run the risk of loosing my children and/or go to jail. How the hell did you people let it come that far? I.e. how do people keep voting for these moron politician with their war on XYZ narrative. Me and my wife come from two countries where parents are actually pushed to make their children more independant - Switzerland and Japan. In Switzerland, children are usually sent to Kindergarden on their own, by foot, at least if the neighbourhood is safe (note: requires a city structure where a drive isn't necessary to get anywhere). All parents do is give them a lunchbox, a visibility triangle and a kiss on the head. [1]: This is how you'll meet them on the roads. There's signs and TV programs everywhere before first day of school to warn drivers of new children on the streets - after 1-2 weeks it's not necessary anymore and we don't have a higher number of child accidents to my knowledge. In Japan, small children are accompanied not by their parents, but by older children, usually 3-4 years older. Their morning meetup is organized and supervised by elderly volunteers who keep watch at the meetup point. It both teaches responsibility to the 9+ year olds and first independance from adults to the youngest. How come the US doesn't use studies from abroad when doing CP regulation? Boggles my mind. [1] http://www.baselland.ch/fileadmin/baselland/pics/docs/uebrige/mit_pol/2007/2007d/529_2g.jpg http://www.baselland.ch/fileadmin/baselland/pics/docs/uebrig...
- mikerichards 12y ago
  Switzerland might be different, but let's be honest, many of the countries that surround it don't have political cultures that instill independence in its citizens...especially compared to the U.S.

malkia 12y ago

Free range was always for me back in Bulgaria. As soon as I reached 5 or 6 I was walking through the city, staying sometimes alone at home, walking from school, etc. Was I alone, nope - almost every kid was like that. Just take a look at the kids movies, and books... You know that's funny - cause my 7 year old really like Ron Roy's A-Z Mysteries - http://www.ronroy.com/atoz/books.php http://www.ronroy.com/atoz/books.php http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_to_Z_Mysteries http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_to_Z_Mysteries The kids are nine years old - and do really roam by themselves alone... One of my favourite movies "Verano Azul" (Blue Summer) was real-hit in Bulgaria, and quotes from it are still used to this day (middle man, pirahna, etc.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E47_QWOXrMA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E47_QWOXrMA And a lot of the bulgarian kid movies were about kids free roaming, exploring, interacting while parents are on the beach, totally not caring about them. It wasn't that bad really! Then again, when comes to me - nowadays I'm real helicopter - gaaaah!

chrisbennet 12y ago

Is the world that much more dangerous than it was in the 70's or is the media just making us more aware of every rare but horrible thing that happens? Do people/politicians then feel they "need to do something" even if it's the wrong thing?

spc476 12y ago
I'm thinking the 24-hour news cycle has some part to play in this. They have to fill the time with something, anything and so what might have been a local story fifty years ago is now national news.
shit_parade 12y ago
Statistically the world is dramatically safer by almost anyway you slice it.

A_COMPUTER 12y ago

I know more than one person who is in complete support of these laws. You can't argue with them, you can only outnumber them if you're lucky. I had some friends who worked weird hours when their two children were very young, and they were repeatedly harassed by child services because the same person repeatedly turned them in no matter how many times CPS determined there was no problem. By law CPS were required to act on every report. Probably a good idea, but it enables harassment in some cases.

chiph 12y ago
Crazy people are crazy... I worked in an office where a manager's ex-wife would swear out warrants against him. By the third or fourth time, the detectives were like: "She's done it again, Steve. We need to go downtown and fill out the paperwork, and then we'll drive you back."

kstrauser 12y ago

Maryland has a new Governor as of January. If I were him, I would be humiliated and furious that a state agency declared Maryland unsafe for children. That's not the kind of image you want to project. I've already written this in a letter to his office. If you agree with me and think he should use his executive powers to reign in a renegade agency under his authority, please consider doing the same.

anigbrowl 12y ago
To be more persuasive on this important issue, ask him to rein it in. /PSA
- kstrauser 12y ago
  My phone has something against reigndeer, but only when it's reining outside.
  - anonbanker 12y ago
    Leave this stuff on reddit. Many of us initially came to HN to avoid things like this.
bmelton 12y ago
To be fair to Hogan, this all began well before he took office, and hence, it can't be his policies that are to blame for this action. That said, it's definitely good advice to bring to his attention, so I'll send an email or stop by the next time I'm in Annapolis.
- snowwrestler 12y ago
  I don't think the OP was blaming Hogan, but rather recognizing the opportunity his election represents. Since Reagan, Republicans have liked to campaign against government overreach. Well, here is a gift-wrapped example for Hogan to work on.
  - 12y ago

shit_parade 12y ago

What a comedy, and the State strikes again, better behave citizens and do as your government tells you or else they will take away your children and/or put you in jail. You've been warned, and a file has been opened, the State is always watching.

IgorPartola 12y ago

So I expect there will be a lot of "when I was a kid we did this all the time" type stuff in te replies here. Before jumping on that bandwagon (I took lots of walks like this in a city far less friendly in some ways), let me say that I think at least the question deserves to be asked. Then again, the way this happened, the parents seem to have no recourse. They are "found" to be neglecting, yet there is no actual trial. Perhaps they should sue the state over libel, and settle this once and for all. I am sure if they win they could claim quite a bit of damage to their character not to mention inconvenience of having the nation watch their personal decisions. Best of all, that would create a precedent which can then be referenced. As is, this is just an administrative record. Also, if this is neglect, then what is withholding vaccines for deadly diseases from your child? What actually puts you in more danger?

robotresearcher 12y ago
They were not found to be neglecting. The finding was that the allegation of neglect was unsubstantiated. That's totally different. The parents quite understandably wanted to be absolved. It's a shame they weren't. But they were not found guilty of anything.
- IgorPartola 12y ago
  I see. I misread the article. Thanks for the clarification.
  - bmelton 12y ago
    Honestly, it's debatable whether or not you did misread it. The way it reads, they weren't found innocent of child neglect, they were found to be held responsible for the unsubstantiated child negligence charges. Their names will be placed in a file, and if the cops responsible pick up the kids again for equally unsubstantiated claims, it will trigger a more thorough investigation. At present, for the next five years, they're on the CPS equivalent of "probation".
    - deleted 12y ago

andrewstuart2 12y ago

Maryland Family Law Article, Section 5-701: > “Unsubstantiated” means a finding that there is an insufficient amount of evidence to support a finding of indicated or ruled out. There was not sufficient evidence to support either confirmation of abuse or to rule it out. That's all this ruling means. [1] http://mgaleg.maryland.gov/webmga/frmStatutesText.aspx?article=gfl&section=5-701&ext=html&session=2015RS&tab=subject5 http://mgaleg.maryland.gov/webmga/frmStatutesText.aspx?artic...

diyorgasms 12y ago
What CPS is asking is that the parents prove a negative. The burden of proof should be on CPS to make a claim and offer evidence. What are the parents supposed to say? "And on the thirtieth of November, we spent an hour not neglecting our children"? If not enough evidence exists to determine that neglect was happening, then these parents should not have CPS retaining a file on their "unsubstantiated" neglect for the next 5 years.

brent_noorda 12y ago

I was investigated for allowing my child to play in the schoolyard across the street without shoes on. The investigation went on for weeks and was extremely stressful, for both parent and child.

iopq 12y ago

When I was 10 years old I would stay out until 1 am or later hanging out with friends. I'd be outside most of the day without supervision.

brandonmenc 12y ago

Another story illustrating the disturbing trend of mandatory bureaucratic process. Entities run by expert systems instead of humans - CPS seems to be one of the worst offenders. When people executing the law do it without discretion, watch out.

WalterBright 12y ago

The thing is, we live in an incredibly safe society. But our brains are hardwired to look for danger, and if there isn't any, we invent imaginary ones and exaggerate what little danger remains.

jbarham 12y ago

As a Canadian who relocated to Australia four years ago via California, it's refreshing to live in a society where the default expectation is that adults will behave as such. Consider: * it's perfectly legal in Australia for adults to drink alcohol in public parks * heck, your local council government will probably also have installed gas BBQs in your public park so you can cook sausages to enjoy with your beer * no idiotic and humiliating TSA-style security theatre on domestic flights in Australia * children walk to school all the time by themselves without their parents being investigated for neglect etc. Government provided BBQs are inconceivable in California since (gasp!) the hot plate may burn someone and the lawyers wouldn't like that. Similarly something as basic as providing public toilets at a place like Huntington Beach (in Orange County!) is a fiasco as the stalls don't have doors, because they might provide privacy for drug addicts shooting up. For the 99% who aren't drug addicts, tough luck, a right to privacy while you do your business obviously isn't worth anything anyway. I could go on, but from a distance the American claim to be the "land of the free and the home of the brave" is increasingly farcical.

empressplay 12y ago
I too am a Canadian who emigrated to Australia and despite the occasional scare-mongering from the Coalition I enjoy the more laid-back atmosphere here. Even going back to Canada to visit now (never mind the US) I find it to now be much more uptight, suspicious and unwelcoming than what I've become used to in Australia.
foolfoolz 12y ago
as a Californian I must defend the availability of our public bbqs - which are numerous - especially in beach cities. I can even go on my counties website and find parks with bathrooms and bbqs listed. drinking in the park is rarer, but still allowed in certain parks. we are still the land of the free (bbq)
- jbarham 12y ago
  Apologies, I see from e.g. http://ocparks.com/parks/ted/amenities http://ocparks.com/parks/ted/amenities that you are correct. I see though, that at least in OC, you still have to provide charcoal briquettes for your BBQs, whereas the Aussies just push a button to turn on the gas.

joesmo 12y ago

Is there any wonder why kids are becoming increasingly obese nowadays when their parents won't allow them to walk anywhere? Not to mention all the other ill effects detailed in the other comments.

gbog 12y ago

This article is quite interesting, and I hope to let my kids have this kind of environment. I'd like to underline here that this kind of parenting is very different from the one shown in a recent post about some 11yo kids watching Alien at home [1]. Watching horror movies is safe for the body, and not recommended for the emotional brain [2]. Exact opposite of these wild playgrounds. 1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9127761 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9127761 2. Why? It seems obvious to me. Seeing very frightening or disgusting things in movies may make you overreact when facing similar disgusts in real life, or being too easily afraid. After seeing a horror movie as a kid you are afraid of monsters below your bed, afraid of darkness which may have monsters or ghosts. This is not the kind of fear that is even slightly useful. I suppose most of the ghosts stories of the past were actually useful: they prevented kids and adults from going out in the night, where they could be endangered for real. But nowadays no wolves haunt the nights anymore. It may be rational to induce a little bit of fear for cars when walking, so kids keep at safe distance. But I see no reason to raise the fears of the unknown and foreign as done in most horror movie. Another example is food: fear your plate and you're stomack will be in despair and show (either anorexia or obesity), trust your plate and you're stomack will do it's work properly: which is to keep you in normal shape. (I was so annoyed by this american girl always asking what was the dish made of in the plate: you're in China my girl, dishes are made of hundreds of mysterious things, including pig oil, msg, sichuan pepper, etc. But check the other girls beside you, they're fit, they love to eat, do it all the time, so please just eat this and enjoy it...)