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It only took two people (Manning and Snowden) to remove any remaining credibility left in US foreign policy. You almost have to feel embarrassed for Obama and c

It only took two people (Manning and Snowden) to remove any remaining credibility left in US foreign policy. You almost have to feel embarrassed for Obama and co.

tomp 12y ago
Well, in reality, the two people that removed any remaining credibility left in the US foreign policy are George W Bush and Obama. Dick Cheney and Condoleezza Rice helped, though.
- seanmcdirmid 12y ago
  Come on, are Obama and W much worse than Reagan, Nixon, Johnson, Kennedy, Rossevelt? The US will keep using up the last of its credibility year after year, and of course that just means it isn't.
  - fit2rule 12y ago
    Carter replenished the national credibility account?
    - seanmcdirmid 12y ago
      Nah, I just picked the most egregious ones as examples, skipping the ones that were lower profile. As I get older, I just see things repeating over and over; the young kids think we are reaching into new bads just because they are seeing it for the first time. Now get off my lawn.
    - dredmorbius 12y ago
      He's the only U.S. President in a long time to have no US troops deployed in combat, as I recall. Definitely since WWII, possibly WWI or earlier.
      - arethuza 12y ago
        Well, there was Operation Eagle Claw to try and rescue the US hostages in Iran: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Eagle_Claw http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Eagle_Claw
        happyscrappy 12y ago
        Carter is the canonical example of why you cannot appear soft on foreign policy.
        arethuza 12y ago
        Also the Missile Gap: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missile_gap http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missile_gap
        dredmorbius 12y ago
        Not deployed in combat (or at least didn't reach the stage of combat). The mission itself was a failure.
  - jMyles 12y ago
    I'll bite. Yes, in terms of foreign policy, I think that W and especially Obama have been profoundly, historically, difficult-to-believe bad. I'm not trying to downplay Iran-Contra, Gulf of Tonkin / Vietnam, etc., but the last two administrations have taken what was unduly hostile (and expensive) logistical capability around the world and turned it into Empire. The needs, wants, representative processes, laws, and sovereignty of other nations have reduced in relevance to the Empire's decision making process to zero. It's interesting you bring up Roosevelt: don't forget - that was an actual, declared war - by Congress. So in terms of assessing foreign policy that's different for sure. By comparison, Obama has attacked no less than seven different countries in undeclared wars. I think this is, as you say, "much worse."
    - seanmcdirmid 12y ago
      The last two presidents will always be the worst ones then? There was a lot of shady stuff going on during W2 that makes today's situation look like child's play. The last 8 years have been relatively quiet compared to the 00s or 90s or 80s. Historically speaking, I bet 20 years from now most of Obama's interventions are mere footnotes, like Reagan's mostly are.
      - mkr-hn 12y ago
        It's hard to top putting hundreds of thousands of citizens in camps and stealing all their property. And that's just if we limit it to the 20th century to present.
        jMyles 12y ago
        Of course that occurred to me, but I declined to mention it because it's not, strictly speaking, foreign policy.
    - bjelkeman-again 12y ago
      Seven undeclared wars during Obama's presidency. Is it these? Afganistan, Iraq, ISIL, Libya, Pakistan, Yemen. I seem to be missing one. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_United_States#21st_century_wars http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_Un...
  - uptown 12y ago
    I wouldn't give Reagan a pass either: "...the bulk of U.S. foreign surveillance operations are governed not by acts of Congress, but by a 33-year-old executive order issued unilaterally by President Ronald Reagan." https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/09/29/new-documents-confirm-expansive-spying-powers-reagan-era-order/ https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/09/29/new-documents-...
balabaster 12y ago
Actually, it's not Obama and Co. you should feel embarrassed for, it's the entire political establishment in the U.S. you should feel embarrassed about. This has been going on for years, it's just that it was all finally revealed to the public on Obama's watch. I applaud Snowden and Manning for their contributions to getting the truth out there, truly... but I don't blame Obama. If Snowden had gotten there sooner, it would've come out under Bush. If it had taken longer, it would've come out under the next president. You can't blame the current president for all the wrongs in your country, he didn't create most of them. He didn't set the ball rolling, he's really just playing with the cards he was dealt... and sure, he may suck as a president but he's not entirely to blame for your country's political woes. Let's remember, there were people who were so upset with American foreign policy that in 2001 they were willing take a ridiculous amount of risk to stage a massive terrorist attack on U.S. soil. 8 years before Obama became president... on W's watch. But W. wasn't president until January 20, 2001, I would wager such an attack took far longer to plan than the 7 months and 22 days that Bush Jr. had been president. So it wasn't retaliation for anything he did either. I'd like to believe that people don't just stage terrorist attacks for no reason. People [I really hope... I have to believe] are mostly good. When treated with respect and dignity, they don't just stage terrorist attacks on other nations. That had nothing to do with Obama's foreign policy... you could perhaps argue it had little to do with W's... except that he's the son of Bush Sr. (so some influence there). The war on terror began on W's watch... but realistically it was his father who started shipping American troops en-masse to the middle east shortly before the Gulf War. If you recall, at the time, everyone was concerned that Bush Sr. was going to start another Vietnam... on the Middle East... which has now been turned into this Islam vs. the U.S. mess. [I would definitely be worried about what will happen if Jeb Bush becomes the 45th President of the United States - unless he wants his legacy to be coming in and cleaning up the rest of his family's mess.] So should you feel embarrassed for Obama? I don't think so. He's not done much worse than his predecessors. He's just failed to clean up the mess he was left with. To be honest, I'm not entirely sure there's a single living person who could clean up the mess that is the U.S. political system without getting themselves assassinated in the process. I wish along with what he uncovered, Snowden had uncovered who really killed Kennedy - or at least, who planned/commissioned it... and what really happened in Roswell? I mean, I'd really like to know are they telling the truth or not? If not, what really went on there? Is there a conspiracy? Was it covered up? Are all the people written off as crazy actually telling the truth? Having this constant is it true isn't it true is tedious. The evidence of conspiracy is sketchy at best, fabricated at worst, yet there is so much passion behind these "conspiracies" you have to wonder, is there any truth whatsoever to those fighting for them? Given everything recently that shows there has been this conspiracy to spy on the masses that reaches to the very highest levels of government - you have to wonder, what else don't we know yet? You have to wonder, what has still yet to come to light?

It only took two people (Manning and Snowden) to remove any remaining credibility left in US foreign policy. You almost have to feel embarrassed for Obama and co.

tomp 12y ago

Well, in reality, the two people that removed any remaining credibility left in the US foreign policy are George W Bush and Obama. Dick Cheney and Condoleezza Rice helped, though.

seanmcdirmid 12y ago
Come on, are Obama and W much worse than Reagan, Nixon, Johnson, Kennedy, Rossevelt? The US will keep using up the last of its credibility year after year, and of course that just means it isn't.
- fit2rule 12y ago
  Carter replenished the national credibility account?
  - seanmcdirmid 12y ago
    Nah, I just picked the most egregious ones as examples, skipping the ones that were lower profile. As I get older, I just see things repeating over and over; the young kids think we are reaching into new bads just because they are seeing it for the first time. Now get off my lawn.
  - dredmorbius 12y ago
    He's the only U.S. President in a long time to have no US troops deployed in combat, as I recall. Definitely since WWII, possibly WWI or earlier.
    - arethuza 12y ago
      Well, there was Operation Eagle Claw to try and rescue the US hostages in Iran: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Eagle_Claw http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Eagle_Claw
      - happyscrappy 12y ago
        Carter is the canonical example of why you cannot appear soft on foreign policy.
        arethuza 12y ago
        Also the Missile Gap: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missile_gap http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missile_gap
      - dredmorbius 12y ago
        Not deployed in combat (or at least didn't reach the stage of combat). The mission itself was a failure.
- jMyles 12y ago
  I'll bite. Yes, in terms of foreign policy, I think that W and especially Obama have been profoundly, historically, difficult-to-believe bad. I'm not trying to downplay Iran-Contra, Gulf of Tonkin / Vietnam, etc., but the last two administrations have taken what was unduly hostile (and expensive) logistical capability around the world and turned it into Empire. The needs, wants, representative processes, laws, and sovereignty of other nations have reduced in relevance to the Empire's decision making process to zero. It's interesting you bring up Roosevelt: don't forget - that was an actual, declared war - by Congress. So in terms of assessing foreign policy that's different for sure. By comparison, Obama has attacked no less than seven different countries in undeclared wars. I think this is, as you say, "much worse."
  - seanmcdirmid 12y ago
    The last two presidents will always be the worst ones then? There was a lot of shady stuff going on during W2 that makes today's situation look like child's play. The last 8 years have been relatively quiet compared to the 00s or 90s or 80s. Historically speaking, I bet 20 years from now most of Obama's interventions are mere footnotes, like Reagan's mostly are.
    - mkr-hn 12y ago
      It's hard to top putting hundreds of thousands of citizens in camps and stealing all their property. And that's just if we limit it to the 20th century to present.
      - jMyles 12y ago
        Of course that occurred to me, but I declined to mention it because it's not, strictly speaking, foreign policy.
  - bjelkeman-again 12y ago
    Seven undeclared wars during Obama's presidency. Is it these? Afganistan, Iraq, ISIL, Libya, Pakistan, Yemen. I seem to be missing one. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_United_States#21st_century_wars http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_Un...
- uptown 12y ago
  I wouldn't give Reagan a pass either: "...the bulk of U.S. foreign surveillance operations are governed not by acts of Congress, but by a 33-year-old executive order issued unilaterally by President Ronald Reagan." https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/09/29/new-documents-confirm-expansive-spying-powers-reagan-era-order/ https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/09/29/new-documents-...

balabaster 12y ago

Actually, it's not Obama and Co. you should feel embarrassed for, it's the entire political establishment in the U.S. you should feel embarrassed about. This has been going on for years, it's just that it was all finally revealed to the public on Obama's watch. I applaud Snowden and Manning for their contributions to getting the truth out there, truly... but I don't blame Obama. If Snowden had gotten there sooner, it would've come out under Bush. If it had taken longer, it would've come out under the next president. You can't blame the current president for all the wrongs in your country, he didn't create most of them. He didn't set the ball rolling, he's really just playing with the cards he was dealt... and sure, he may suck as a president but he's not entirely to blame for your country's political woes. Let's remember, there were people who were so upset with American foreign policy that in 2001 they were willing take a ridiculous amount of risk to stage a massive terrorist attack on U.S. soil. 8 years before Obama became president... on W's watch. But W. wasn't president until January 20, 2001, I would wager such an attack took far longer to plan than the 7 months and 22 days that Bush Jr. had been president. So it wasn't retaliation for anything he did either. I'd like to believe that people don't just stage terrorist attacks for no reason. People [I really hope... I have to believe] are mostly good. When treated with respect and dignity, they don't just stage terrorist attacks on other nations. That had nothing to do with Obama's foreign policy... you could perhaps argue it had little to do with W's... except that he's the son of Bush Sr. (so some influence there). The war on terror began on W's watch... but realistically it was his father who started shipping American troops en-masse to the middle east shortly before the Gulf War. If you recall, at the time, everyone was concerned that Bush Sr. was going to start another Vietnam... on the Middle East... which has now been turned into this Islam vs. the U.S. mess. [I would definitely be worried about what will happen if Jeb Bush becomes the 45th President of the United States - unless he wants his legacy to be coming in and cleaning up the rest of his family's mess.] So should you feel embarrassed for Obama? I don't think so. He's not done much worse than his predecessors. He's just failed to clean up the mess he was left with. To be honest, I'm not entirely sure there's a single living person who could clean up the mess that is the U.S. political system without getting themselves assassinated in the process. I wish along with what he uncovered, Snowden had uncovered who really killed Kennedy - or at least, who planned/commissioned it... and what really happened in Roswell? I mean, I'd really like to know are they telling the truth or not? If not, what really went on there? Is there a conspiracy? Was it covered up? Are all the people written off as crazy actually telling the truth? Having this constant is it true isn't it true is tedious. The evidence of conspiracy is sketchy at best, fabricated at worst, yet there is so much passion behind these "conspiracies" you have to wonder, is there any truth whatsoever to those fighting for them? Given everything recently that shows there has been this conspiracy to spy on the masses that reaches to the very highest levels of government - you have to wonder, what else don't we know yet? You have to wonder, what has still yet to come to light?