5 ms·

Practially speaking, design is legally indefensible as intellectual property - if you actually paid lawyers to make a case for you, you'd only be depleting your

Practially speaking, design is legally indefensible as intellectual property - if you actually paid lawyers to make a case for you, you'd only be depleting your own war chest to make your copycats go through the relatively small hassle of a redesign. The only effective way to counter it is loudly naming and shaming the companies responsible. Kudos to CB Insights for doing exactly that. Not only will it make the copying more trouble than it was worth to Techlist, but the threat of public embarrassment will help deter copycats in the future.

andrewparker 12y ago
CSS (like all written works) is copyrightable, so if there is clear evidence that the CSS was copy/pasted, CB Insights would have a case on that basis. Damages would be negligible, so it would not be a case worth pursuing.
- macmac 12y ago
  Not all written works are copyrightable. Even in the US which is fairly lax about granting copyright, a work must fulfill certain criteria to be copyrightable, cf here for a good overview https://www.lib.purdue.edu/uco/CopyrightBasics/basics.html https://www.lib.purdue.edu/uco/CopyrightBasics/basics.html
  - bhayden 12y ago
    Since titles and short phrases aren't copyrightable, could I start a tech news blog, have all of the exact same stories and titles that Engadget uses, and write my own content for each story and not being infringing on their copyright?
    - macmac 12y ago
      You could try, and Engadget would probably not, if they hire a good law firm, use copyright to try to stop you. They could however potentially use other parts of the law including, depending on the jurisdiction, rules on unfair competition, passing off etc.
aaardvark 12y ago
> Practially speaking, design is legally indefensible as intellectual property Really? Isn't there any IP protection for a websites look-and-feel? Need some lawyers to opine on this.
- lloydde 12y ago
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_Dev._Corp._v._Borland_Int'l,_Inc http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_Dev._Corp._v._Borland_Int.... There is an argument that the failure of copyright protection excel-erated (pun) patenting of processes centered on software ux.
teachingaway 12y ago
I disagree. A design patent for a user interface would do the trick. So would some clever copyright registrations. http://adlervermillion.com/user-interface-design-patents/ http://adlervermillion.com/user-interface-design-patents/ Not every lawyer knows/understands IP and user interface design. But if you find a lawyer who specializes in the two, and you lay the groundwork before your design is copied, you should have a strong legal position when the copycats arrive. For an early-stage startup, it may not make sense to sink a ton of $$ into design patents. But companies with more revenue/capital should think about it.
- georgeecollins 12y ago
  That's a great link to example of user design patents that proves your point. But reading that I feel like almost all the examples they show are not protecting innovation. It seems like the kind of thing that ought to be protected as trademarks, not patents. If Google makes a page that is distinctive enough to be its trademark and you make a paget that looks clese enough to that page that the average user coudl confuse them, it seems like you are doing the equivelent of infringing on a trademark. But you are right, it ui is patentable.
- dkrich 12y ago
  I disagree from a practical, as well as financial standpoint. It's very difficult to patent a software interface design as you have to prove a lack of existence of prior art and the patent must describe the specifics of what you are patenting. These days there's very little new under the sun. I don't see anything remarkably unique about that particular interface. I'm certainly not saying that it wasn't lifted by their competitor, but that analytics dash also bares a striking resemblance to Google Analytics and a host of others, not to mention Microsoft Excel. Okay, it's blue and has large Helvetica numbers- is that what you're going to patent? Okay, I'll change mine to a green color scheme with Arial fonts. Your patent is no longer enforceable, and your IP attorneys who tend to be paid quite well will charge you tens of thousands of dollars to prove that. I can imagine it feels like a major violation and annoying to be ripped off, and I don't condone that strategy, but I doubt that CB's competitive advantage is a color scheme and some data labels. A design patent would have basically no value in this scenario.

andrewparker 12y ago

CSS (like all written works) is copyrightable, so if there is clear evidence that the CSS was copy/pasted, CB Insights would have a case on that basis. Damages would be negligible, so it would not be a case worth pursuing.

macmac 12y ago
Not all written works are copyrightable. Even in the US which is fairly lax about granting copyright, a work must fulfill certain criteria to be copyrightable, cf here for a good overview https://www.lib.purdue.edu/uco/CopyrightBasics/basics.html https://www.lib.purdue.edu/uco/CopyrightBasics/basics.html
- bhayden 12y ago
  Since titles and short phrases aren't copyrightable, could I start a tech news blog, have all of the exact same stories and titles that Engadget uses, and write my own content for each story and not being infringing on their copyright?
  - macmac 12y ago
    You could try, and Engadget would probably not, if they hire a good law firm, use copyright to try to stop you. They could however potentially use other parts of the law including, depending on the jurisdiction, rules on unfair competition, passing off etc.

aaardvark 12y ago

> Practially speaking, design is legally indefensible as intellectual property Really? Isn't there any IP protection for a websites look-and-feel? Need some lawyers to opine on this.

lloydde 12y ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_Dev._Corp._v._Borland_Int'l,_Inc http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_Dev._Corp._v._Borland_Int.... There is an argument that the failure of copyright protection excel-erated (pun) patenting of processes centered on software ux.

teachingaway 12y ago

I disagree. A design patent for a user interface would do the trick. So would some clever copyright registrations. http://adlervermillion.com/user-interface-design-patents/ http://adlervermillion.com/user-interface-design-patents/ Not every lawyer knows/understands IP and user interface design. But if you find a lawyer who specializes in the two, and you lay the groundwork before your design is copied, you should have a strong legal position when the copycats arrive. For an early-stage startup, it may not make sense to sink a ton of $$ into design patents. But companies with more revenue/capital should think about it.

georgeecollins 12y ago
That's a great link to example of user design patents that proves your point. But reading that I feel like almost all the examples they show are not protecting innovation. It seems like the kind of thing that ought to be protected as trademarks, not patents. If Google makes a page that is distinctive enough to be its trademark and you make a paget that looks clese enough to that page that the average user coudl confuse them, it seems like you are doing the equivelent of infringing on a trademark. But you are right, it ui is patentable.
dkrich 12y ago
I disagree from a practical, as well as financial standpoint. It's very difficult to patent a software interface design as you have to prove a lack of existence of prior art and the patent must describe the specifics of what you are patenting. These days there's very little new under the sun. I don't see anything remarkably unique about that particular interface. I'm certainly not saying that it wasn't lifted by their competitor, but that analytics dash also bares a striking resemblance to Google Analytics and a host of others, not to mention Microsoft Excel. Okay, it's blue and has large Helvetica numbers- is that what you're going to patent? Okay, I'll change mine to a green color scheme with Arial fonts. Your patent is no longer enforceable, and your IP attorneys who tend to be paid quite well will charge you tens of thousands of dollars to prove that. I can imagine it feels like a major violation and annoying to be ripped off, and I don't condone that strategy, but I doubt that CB's competitive advantage is a color scheme and some data labels. A design patent would have basically no value in this scenario.