5 ms·

EFF Files FOIA Suit Over U.S. Marshals’ Cell-Tracking Spy Planes

208 points by declan 12y ago

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
Shinkei 12y ago
Has anyone ever quantified the dollars spent per criminal captured for these kinds of programs? I mean flying a small plane, using proprietary technology, agents' time... I'm guessing this is in the millions of dollars, but who are we catching with this?
- sehugg 12y ago
  People who steal cellphones: http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/baltimore-city/bs-md-ci-stingray-police-tactic-20141122-story.html http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/baltimore-city/bs-...
- tracker1 12y ago
  The roughly one in a hundred citizens imprisoned in the US.
ta75757 12y ago
Could one use some form of cell tower white-list as a countermeasure to stingray? Or is it a purely passive attack?
- delinka 12y ago
  Couldn't a stingray mimic a whitelisted tower? Much like your computer can use a different MAC address at your whim.
  - ta75757 12y ago
    It is theoretically possible to avoid that via cryptography but I doubt the cell phone protocols include that.
    - schoen 12y ago
      3G provides some cryptographic basis for this, but you might not have a UI on your device to require 3G or to warn you about roaming (which could defend at least against early generations of IMSI catchers).
  - pasbesoin 12y ago
    Whether alone (with user movement and precise clocking) or in a coordinated group effort, devices might begin to triangulate tower location and check this against historical and geographic data. It would be a bit ironic, if/when triangulation begins to "work" "in the other direction".
    - icebraining 12y ago
      It already is: Mozilla has been building apps¹ that allow users to contribute to a shared database of the locations of cellphone towers and WiFi APs. The idea is to allow GPS-less devices to find where they are, but it could certainly be used to identify new towers in places which had already been mapped. EDIT: It seems there's also opencellid.org, which actually allows you to download the full database. ¹ https://location.services.mozilla.com/apps https://location.services.mozilla.com/apps
- dmix 12y ago
  This is being done with IMSI Catcher detector [1] using machine learning to learn which towers you commonly connect to, then warning you when: a) a new cell tower ID has suddenly appeared at a specific lat/long when it wasn't there before b) the encryption/protocol changes or gets degraded [1] https://secupwn.github.io/Android-IMSI-Catcher-Detector/ https://secupwn.github.io/Android-IMSI-Catcher-Detector/
  - malandrew 12y ago
    Furthermore, since these IMSI catchers are mounted on planes, can't they be detected by the fact that they are moving?
diafygi 12y ago
This silence on FOIA requests is in line with what the FBI has been instructing local law enforcement to do[1]. Here's the relevant FBI letter: In the event that the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension receives a request pursuant to the Freedom of Information Act (5 USC 552) or an equivalent state or local law, the civil or criminal discovery process, or other judicial, legislative, or administrative process, to disclose information concerning the Harris Corporation [REDACTED] the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension will immediately notify the FBI of any such request telephonically and in writing in order to allow sufficient time for the FBI to seek to prevent disclosure through appropriate channels. This is a written policy that FOIA requests should by default be resisted. This combined with the change from a mission of "law enforcement" to "national security"[2] signifies a huge shift in the FBI away from a rule-of-law culture to a rule-of-man culture. [1]: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/02/fbi-really-doesnt-want-anyone-to-know-about-stingray-use-by-local-cops/ http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/02/fbi-really-doesnt... [2]: http://www.msnbc.com/the-last-word/fbis-main-mission-now-not.. http://www.msnbc.com/the-last-word/fbis-main-mission-now-not....
- a3n 12y ago
  "the most transparent administration in history" https://duckduckgo.com/?t=lm&q=the+most+transparent+administration https://duckduckgo.com/?t=lm&q=the+most+transparent+administ...
- guelo 12y ago
  I agree with your sentiment but not with the idea that this is "a huge shift". The FBI was founded by J Edgar Hoover after all.
xexers 12y ago
Why are these planes even required? Cant the US government simply get this information directly from the phone carriers? Given all of the power the NSA seems to have, surely they have this capability already.
- upofadown 12y ago
  I suspect that the planes are a lot more fun...
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
  - xexers 12y ago
    > going to the telecom company with a sweeping warrant Would it be a sweeping warrant? If they are only targeting 1 person/phone, then it sounds like a very specific warrant. Plus, the phone companies wouldn't give them all the data ("the whole haystack"), the phone companies would only give them the specific data to that person.
- Terr_ 12y ago
  I imagine intercepting it yourself means you need less cooperation from private entity, less paperwork (or paper-trail), and the ability to react to stuff being said/sent in real-time.
- URSpider94 12y ago
  I'm not sure that carriers keep the IMSI tower association records (vs. call or data transmission logging information). This would be a tremendous amount of information to retain, since a given phone is always associated with at least one tower and may be re-negotiating its association thousands of times per day.
  - icebraining 12y ago

208 points by declan 12y ago

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

Has anyone ever quantified the dollars spent per criminal captured for these kinds of programs? I mean flying a small plane, using proprietary technology, agents' time... I'm guessing this is in the millions of dollars, but who are we catching with this?

sehugg 12y ago
People who steal cellphones: http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/baltimore-city/bs-md-ci-stingray-police-tactic-20141122-story.html http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/baltimore-city/bs-...
tracker1 12y ago
The roughly one in a hundred citizens imprisoned in the US.

ta75757 12y ago

Could one use some form of cell tower white-list as a countermeasure to stingray? Or is it a purely passive attack?

delinka 12y ago
Couldn't a stingray mimic a whitelisted tower? Much like your computer can use a different MAC address at your whim.
- ta75757 12y ago
  It is theoretically possible to avoid that via cryptography but I doubt the cell phone protocols include that.
  - schoen 12y ago
    3G provides some cryptographic basis for this, but you might not have a UI on your device to require 3G or to warn you about roaming (which could defend at least against early generations of IMSI catchers).
- pasbesoin 12y ago
  Whether alone (with user movement and precise clocking) or in a coordinated group effort, devices might begin to triangulate tower location and check this against historical and geographic data. It would be a bit ironic, if/when triangulation begins to "work" "in the other direction".
  - icebraining 12y ago
    It already is: Mozilla has been building apps¹ that allow users to contribute to a shared database of the locations of cellphone towers and WiFi APs. The idea is to allow GPS-less devices to find where they are, but it could certainly be used to identify new towers in places which had already been mapped. EDIT: It seems there's also opencellid.org, which actually allows you to download the full database. ¹ https://location.services.mozilla.com/apps https://location.services.mozilla.com/apps
dmix 12y ago
This is being done with IMSI Catcher detector [1] using machine learning to learn which towers you commonly connect to, then warning you when: a) a new cell tower ID has suddenly appeared at a specific lat/long when it wasn't there before b) the encryption/protocol changes or gets degraded [1] https://secupwn.github.io/Android-IMSI-Catcher-Detector/ https://secupwn.github.io/Android-IMSI-Catcher-Detector/
- malandrew 12y ago
  Furthermore, since these IMSI catchers are mounted on planes, can't they be detected by the fact that they are moving?

diafygi 12y ago

This silence on FOIA requests is in line with what the FBI has been instructing local law enforcement to do[1]. Here's the relevant FBI letter: In the event that the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension receives a request pursuant to the Freedom of Information Act (5 USC 552) or an equivalent state or local law, the civil or criminal discovery process, or other judicial, legislative, or administrative process, to disclose information concerning the Harris Corporation [REDACTED] the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension will immediately notify the FBI of any such request telephonically and in writing in order to allow sufficient time for the FBI to seek to prevent disclosure through appropriate channels. This is a written policy that FOIA requests should by default be resisted. This combined with the change from a mission of "law enforcement" to "national security"[2] signifies a huge shift in the FBI away from a rule-of-law culture to a rule-of-man culture. [1]: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/02/fbi-really-doesnt-want-anyone-to-know-about-stingray-use-by-local-cops/ http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/02/fbi-really-doesnt... [2]: http://www.msnbc.com/the-last-word/fbis-main-mission-now-not.. http://www.msnbc.com/the-last-word/fbis-main-mission-now-not....

a3n 12y ago
"the most transparent administration in history" https://duckduckgo.com/?t=lm&q=the+most+transparent+administration https://duckduckgo.com/?t=lm&q=the+most+transparent+administ...
guelo 12y ago
I agree with your sentiment but not with the idea that this is "a huge shift". The FBI was founded by J Edgar Hoover after all.

xexers 12y ago

Why are these planes even required? Cant the US government simply get this information directly from the phone carriers? Given all of the power the NSA seems to have, surely they have this capability already.

upofadown 12y ago
I suspect that the planes are a lot more fun...
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
- xexers 12y ago
  > going to the telecom company with a sweeping warrant Would it be a sweeping warrant? If they are only targeting 1 person/phone, then it sounds like a very specific warrant. Plus, the phone companies wouldn't give them all the data ("the whole haystack"), the phone companies would only give them the specific data to that person.
Terr_ 12y ago
I imagine intercepting it yourself means you need less cooperation from private entity, less paperwork (or paper-trail), and the ability to react to stuff being said/sent in real-time.
URSpider94 12y ago
I'm not sure that carriers keep the IMSI tower association records (vs. call or data transmission logging information). This would be a tremendous amount of information to retain, since a given phone is always associated with at least one tower and may be re-negotiating its association thousands of times per day.
- icebraining 12y ago