7 ms·

How a Founder Turned a Slow Burn Rate into a Big Exit

53 points by relaunched 12y ago

lmg643 12y ago
I like this call out quote: "“When you're all working in one big room, everybody can see each other come and go. It becomes obvious who the outliers are.” Doesn't make it sound like we are pretending that the open office plan is really about productivity maximization.
- bronson 12y ago
  And that productivity maximization is about being in that one big room.
- untog 12y ago
  Yeah, that struck me as especially stupid. That guy who leaves at 6pm might have been more productive than everyone else goofing off all day. And besides, if you expect me to stay incredibly late then unless you're also going to give me a huge, huge chunk of equity (or, hey, pay me overtime), then I'm out.
- maxxxxx 12y ago
  Sounds like attendance maximization.
- icedchai 12y ago
  Yeah, they're all there late, taking care of personal business and browsing HN. Hah.
sz4kerto 12y ago
"The people who stayed longer are the ones who stayed with the company." Oh, I have seen that couple of times. People who stay longer are the ones who stayed with the company -- but what's the reason? The implied reason is that because that people who stay longer do more, feel better, etc. However, in many-many cases people who go home earlier are pushed out by others who stay later -- not based on productivity, etc. At [insert big company here] I knew teams where everybody stayed until 10 pm every day, because that was the team culture. Other teams went home at 5, 6 pm. Were the former more productive? Not at all, just that became the norm. "To this day, I fight any budgets for any part of the company. If you don't have one, then people's default is to be more conservative. It's like limitless paid vacation policies — people end up taking less vacation." Etcetera. This writing is about 'how to burn out employees'. It might work out well for founders though.
- SomeCallMeTim 12y ago
  That was the same gist I got. "We needed people who would be with us at 2 a.m. committing code so that we could have it in front of AT&T the next day." That's not about good employees, that's about employees with no lives outside of work. Of course the ones whose job becomes their life will stay longer. It's far more traumatic to leave if you don't know anyone outside of work. I'll take the four-day workweek start-ups any time over the death march start-ups. And I'll put my own short-week productivity up against anyone's 80-hour week.
  - boomzilla 12y ago
    It's true that someone experienced and focused could work 35 hours and produce as much as (or more than) another person who is less experienced and more randomized putting in 80 hours. Start up workloads (for good or bad) is more suited the latter type of workers though. The main reason is most of the time, no one knows exactly what needs to be done in a start up. Yes, product road map changes monthly (or even weekly) and blockers come up every day. As a result, someone sticks around more will be able to respond faster to the changes. I will never do more than 60 hours work week, and that will only be for a couple of weeks max to get something out of the door. So as a result, I'll never work for a start up that doesn't have a concrete product road map that I could understand and believe in.
    - SomeCallMeTim 12y ago
      I disagree with your premise (that 80 hours a week is appropriate for a start-up). As an experienced developer (25+ years now), I'd put money on my code being more capable of pivoting quickly to a new product road map than the code of a less experienced developer. I've had clients/employers be amazed by how fast I could change fundamental behaviors of software I've worked on, and not because I put in 80 hours, but because the design starts out flexible, and I can adapt the work to the new requirements with minimal effort. Sure if you're ask your dev to make changes on a Saturday, the 80-hour employee will be there, but if he/she is still working on that major pivot by Monday, and I can make the changes in a few hours, and my code is more stable, then I still win. ;)
Amorymeltzer 12y ago
Damn, I was hoping this would be about orbital mechanics in Kerbal Space Program.
hickorydock 12y ago
I worked at Location Labs. I feel what this article doesn't capture is how Location Labs also takes care of its people. Like, there was one guy who was working crazy hours to get a product launched. So Tasso basically forced him take a good chunk of time off and paid for his ticket to go see his family (who lived abroad.) Nowhere is the perfect place to work, but I had a wonderful time working with these guys.
- longlivegnu 12y ago
  I have never been forced for time off by why? I understand burn out is important but let him take his time then.
- joezydeco 12y ago
  How was he taken care of, equity wise? Something tells me even though that guy got a magical plane ticket home he also probably wasn't a participant in that "big exit".
chrissnell 12y ago
While I don't agree with the founder's decision to not hire people with prior management experience, I do like his approach to conservative spending. This is something that often feels forgotten about in these days of spacious SOMA offices and massive refrigerators stocked with Japanese soda. As long as my salary is not skimped on, I get a lot of satisfaction from working for a thrifty company. In my domain (infrastructure and ops), learning to do more with less is a lot more challenging than having a blank check for everything you want. Some of my best workplace accomplishments were made when we simply didn't have the cash to buy the big, expensive gear or software.
grimlck 12y ago
Except what do you do if you have venture backed competitors who are willing to spend and lose huge amounts of money in the land grab for marketshare, and thus have far larger sales teams and development teams? More 2am nights?
rajacombinator 12y ago
Interesting view on not hiring people with previous management experience - seems clearly wrong to me. There's a difference between career middle manager MBA types, who might be deadweight at a startup, and other people who have management experience as a result of competence and natural career progression. Someone with experience managing a team should always be preferable, all else being equal.
vanessa98 12y ago
This reads like a Burnout Cookbook.
DrJosiah 12y ago
> Because we were so capital efficient we were able to focus all of our energy on finding a profitable business model This is the real secret. Lean is how they lasted long enough, but a profitable business model with actual customers is how they exited.

53 points by relaunched 12y ago

I like this call out quote: "“When you're all working in one big room, everybody can see each other come and go. It becomes obvious who the outliers are.” Doesn't make it sound like we are pretending that the open office plan is really about productivity maximization.

bronson 12y ago
And that productivity maximization is about being in that one big room.
untog 12y ago
Yeah, that struck me as especially stupid. That guy who leaves at 6pm might have been more productive than everyone else goofing off all day. And besides, if you expect me to stay incredibly late then unless you're also going to give me a huge, huge chunk of equity (or, hey, pay me overtime), then I'm out.
maxxxxx 12y ago
Sounds like attendance maximization.
icedchai 12y ago
Yeah, they're all there late, taking care of personal business and browsing HN. Hah.

sz4kerto 12y ago

"The people who stayed longer are the ones who stayed with the company." Oh, I have seen that couple of times. People who stay longer are the ones who stayed with the company -- but what's the reason? The implied reason is that because that people who stay longer do more, feel better, etc. However, in many-many cases people who go home earlier are pushed out by others who stay later -- not based on productivity, etc. At [insert big company here] I knew teams where everybody stayed until 10 pm every day, because that was the team culture. Other teams went home at 5, 6 pm. Were the former more productive? Not at all, just that became the norm. "To this day, I fight any budgets for any part of the company. If you don't have one, then people's default is to be more conservative. It's like limitless paid vacation policies — people end up taking less vacation." Etcetera. This writing is about 'how to burn out employees'. It might work out well for founders though.

SomeCallMeTim 12y ago
That was the same gist I got. "We needed people who would be with us at 2 a.m. committing code so that we could have it in front of AT&T the next day." That's not about good employees, that's about employees with no lives outside of work. Of course the ones whose job becomes their life will stay longer. It's far more traumatic to leave if you don't know anyone outside of work. I'll take the four-day workweek start-ups any time over the death march start-ups. And I'll put my own short-week productivity up against anyone's 80-hour week.
- boomzilla 12y ago
  It's true that someone experienced and focused could work 35 hours and produce as much as (or more than) another person who is less experienced and more randomized putting in 80 hours. Start up workloads (for good or bad) is more suited the latter type of workers though. The main reason is most of the time, no one knows exactly what needs to be done in a start up. Yes, product road map changes monthly (or even weekly) and blockers come up every day. As a result, someone sticks around more will be able to respond faster to the changes. I will never do more than 60 hours work week, and that will only be for a couple of weeks max to get something out of the door. So as a result, I'll never work for a start up that doesn't have a concrete product road map that I could understand and believe in.
  - SomeCallMeTim 12y ago
    I disagree with your premise (that 80 hours a week is appropriate for a start-up). As an experienced developer (25+ years now), I'd put money on my code being more capable of pivoting quickly to a new product road map than the code of a less experienced developer. I've had clients/employers be amazed by how fast I could change fundamental behaviors of software I've worked on, and not because I put in 80 hours, but because the design starts out flexible, and I can adapt the work to the new requirements with minimal effort. Sure if you're ask your dev to make changes on a Saturday, the 80-hour employee will be there, but if he/she is still working on that major pivot by Monday, and I can make the changes in a few hours, and my code is more stable, then I still win. ;)

Amorymeltzer 12y ago

Damn, I was hoping this would be about orbital mechanics in Kerbal Space Program.

hickorydock 12y ago

I worked at Location Labs. I feel what this article doesn't capture is how Location Labs also takes care of its people. Like, there was one guy who was working crazy hours to get a product launched. So Tasso basically forced him take a good chunk of time off and paid for his ticket to go see his family (who lived abroad.) Nowhere is the perfect place to work, but I had a wonderful time working with these guys.

longlivegnu 12y ago
I have never been forced for time off by why? I understand burn out is important but let him take his time then.
joezydeco 12y ago
How was he taken care of, equity wise? Something tells me even though that guy got a magical plane ticket home he also probably wasn't a participant in that "big exit".

chrissnell 12y ago

While I don't agree with the founder's decision to not hire people with prior management experience, I do like his approach to conservative spending. This is something that often feels forgotten about in these days of spacious SOMA offices and massive refrigerators stocked with Japanese soda. As long as my salary is not skimped on, I get a lot of satisfaction from working for a thrifty company. In my domain (infrastructure and ops), learning to do more with less is a lot more challenging than having a blank check for everything you want. Some of my best workplace accomplishments were made when we simply didn't have the cash to buy the big, expensive gear or software.

grimlck 12y ago

Except what do you do if you have venture backed competitors who are willing to spend and lose huge amounts of money in the land grab for marketshare, and thus have far larger sales teams and development teams? More 2am nights?

rajacombinator 12y ago

Interesting view on not hiring people with previous management experience - seems clearly wrong to me. There's a difference between career middle manager MBA types, who might be deadweight at a startup, and other people who have management experience as a result of competence and natural career progression. Someone with experience managing a team should always be preferable, all else being equal.

vanessa98 12y ago

This reads like a Burnout Cookbook.

DrJosiah 12y ago

> Because we were so capital efficient we were able to focus all of our energy on finding a profitable business model This is the real secret. Lean is how they lasted long enough, but a profitable business model with actual customers is how they exited.