7 ms·

The Apprentice Programmer (2013)

105 points by bootload 12y ago

bootload 12y ago
an interesting reference mentioned by @visakanv in, "Peter Thiel's Dropout Club" post ~ https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9020043 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9020043
showsover 12y ago
>It was the perfect environment for me, I learned a lot, and I am eternally thankful to have chosen that path. If only more countries struggling with dropout rates and job creation would give their students a similar choice. How does this help job creation? Does the author mean the overhead of training interns?
- rhia 12y ago
  The author probably means that it makes a lot of sense of offer people who don't want to go to uni a better perspective than working tough manual labour or minimum wage service industry jobs for the rest of their life. Not every degree currently taught at university is really necessary to perform well in the jobs that those graduates normally get. America would do well to re-evalute the necessity of degrees when vocational training can produce equally skilled workers at a much lower cost for the economy as a whole.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
jarcane 12y ago
There is a program like this here in Finland as well, and I have been highly intrigued by it, and I intend to discuss the option with my employment adviser this week. I am 33 years old. I simply do not have the time to pursue a full degree, and I frankly had a mixed experience in college/uni and am not necessarily in a hurry to do it again. At the same time though, I've a strong interest in some potentially academic subjects and I sometimes find myself doubting I can make a go of it purely on self-study, so I'm a little lost for where to go next or if I should even just dive into paid work.
unimportant 12y ago
German companies are totally backwards compared to US companies and usually managed in rather totalitarian ways. This might work for someone who does not mind this or who has a place to stay while earning less than 1k USD a month for years, but it certainly did not work for me and I choose min wage jobs and self learning instead. Self learners are considered unemployable in Germany, but it gets one a fair chance in the UK or Ireland.
- dghf 12y ago
  > German companies are totally backwards compared to US companies and usually managed in rather totalitarian ways. Can you give some specifics?
  - unimportant 12y ago
    Backwards in terms of largely using outdated technologies, requiring you to send a printed CV with your picture (slowly changing now), very formal hiring process, unwilling to hire anyone without a matching degree rand certifications regardless of skills, largely unrealistic expectations regarding work experience and skills (requirering 5 years of iPhone dev experience when it was just out for a year was common), in larger companies a PhD is needed to get promoted above certain positions etc. etc. Europe truely is the "old world", with London being the only place where startups have a somewhat realistic chance of getting funded on reasonable terms, however entry level developer salaries are still poverty level in London for the first 3 years or so, as there are more candidates than jobs, unlike in the US.
    - marrs 12y ago
      Last I checked, entry level salaries for a graduate were about £30k. For a non-grad that would drop to around £20k, which is still more than all the debt you have to take on to go to university.
      - unimportant 12y ago
        20k is barely liveable in London and if you get laid off before you make significantly more, then you'll have a serious problem if you don't qualify for welfare yet. 30k is already on the high end. In SF, which has similar rents, entry level devs mostly make 70-80k USD, with 60k being rock bottom.
jakobegger 12y ago
We also have the apprentice system in Austria. It's not always as nice as this. If you manage to get an apprenticeship at a good company like Siemens, you'll receive great education. They put a lot of effort into educating apprentices, and after three years you'll be able to get a reasonably well paid job quickly, either at the same company or at a different company. But especially lots of smaller businesses don't have the time and resources to take proper care of their apprentices. Especially in the service industry, apprentices are just hired because they provide cheap labor. Apprentices at restaurants or supermarkets will often spend three years performing only the most menial work, and the "Berufschulen" (vocational schools) are extremely low quality. After spending 3 years in an apprenticeship like this, you'll have trouble finding a proper job, since employers would rather just hire a new cheap apprentice.
- unimportant 12y ago
  Everybody wants to work for big companies like Siemens, so they filter people out via school grades (people that hate the educational system usually have bad grades) and inane logical thinking tests that go on for hours. If you don't fit in, you're pretty much on your way to permanent welfare or min wage jobs in Germany unless you emigrate like I did. The author just got lucky and fit in a bit better than I did.
  - spacecowboy_lon 12y ago
    Quite how would some one like Woz be treated.
    - unimportant 12y ago
      The best and brightest in the US would probably be suicidal welfare candidates in Germany, but enough whining from me for now, as I have been to enough third world countries to know that it can always be worse...
      - smcl 12y ago
        That seems a little harsh, or sarcasm or I've missed the point. Why would those who would otherwise be the best and brightest in the US be headed for welfare if they were raised in Germany?
spacecowboy_lon 12y ago
Unfortunetly this is a well meaning article but totally misses the point that Germany has a unique apprenticeship system - in English speaking countries techies have enough trouble with low social status compared to other professions. Let alone the disastrous effect of that Bloody “apprentice” program the BBC puts out which has done god only knows how much damage to the term Apprentice I started out on what some might call an apprenticeship technically a professional apprentice – ie the one you did after doing a trade apprenticeship and sittng half way between trade and a university degree – but none of us who where all bar one all working for elite organizations (mostly in the defence and rnd sector) would have said we where NOT! apprentices we where Junior members of the Mechanical engineers thank you very much. How ever there are some major downsides to the Ultra rigid German school system you get pigenholed into one track or the other at an early age and its I understand very hard to break out an I believe until the EU put its foot down impossible. The problem with this rigid streaming is you decide very early what kids are going to do in later life and as one German HN commenter said its funny how it is the “brown” skinned Germans who seem to make up most of the vocational schools - and you can see the same in the USA and the UK with Black Kids pigeonholed as vocational track. For example a mate of mine works for one of the big 4 consultancies and he mentions some BME kids and he said its tragic that the schools aren’t prepping the kids to go into those professions.
- xal 12y ago
  I totally missed the point because I didn't make it about race?
  - spacecowboy_lon 12y ago
    No its mainly primarily about damaging the social staus of the technical profesion in Anglo Saxon Contrys - but the fact that school systems like germany that force kids into one track do descriminate against those who dont fit in is very widley known. You where also asuming the the system Germay has evolved would work in other countrys with aparently no undertsanding of how Industrial relations and socity has evolved.
xal 12y ago
I'm the OP. Happy to answer questions about this.
- jtaylor100 12y ago
  Not a question but I just wanted to thank you for this piece it was great to read. I hope someday to find a person like Jürgen.
  - xal 12y ago
    Or better yet, become someone's Jürgen.
    - visakanv 12y ago
      Breaking out of each box, one box at a time. :-)
- ainiriand 12y ago
  Hi! I developed my career exactly the same way. I dropped out of school and I always knew that I wanted to work in software. But here in Spain when I left the school we had no apprentice plan for computers and I had to code a lot of stuff and do a lot other jobs to get an entry job in software. Now I work at the biggest cellphone maker in Spain and I'm very happy, but the road could have been easier!
- hkarthik 12y ago
  You mentioned wanting to create a similar environment at Shopify. How has that been implemented and how is it working out?
  - xal 12y ago
    Frustrating. We've build the environment ( dealt with the supply side ) but we can't bootstrap the demand. Parents are fundamentally opposed to the idea of their kids starting their career before they have the degree.
underlines 12y ago
Switzerland has the same concept and we have some of the best professionals coming from apprenticeships, we do 4 years here for some of the more "complicated" fields like chemistry and software developer. I am a Swiss software developer with the apprenticeship title and I tried to find work abroad (mainly asia). Problem: Around the world that dual education system is unknown or not well recognized and not even respected. Despite that most apprenticeship professionals form Germany, Switzerland and Austria are slightly "better" after finishing their education than most MD graduates! In early 2014 the president of South Korea came to visit my vocational school in Bern, Switzerland because they may implement the dual education system according to the state news: https://www.news.admin.ch/message/index.html?lang=en&msg-id=51711 https://www.news.admin.ch/message/index.html?lang=en&msg-id=...
- phlo 12y ago
  As underlines mentioned, Switzerland has a similar concept of apprenticeships. The aspect I appreciate most (and as far as I am aware somewhat separates the Swiss system from others) is the permeability between the trade and academic spheres. The vocational schooling (as discussed in the article) consists of two parts; technical skills and general education. The latter part is divided into two groups: apprentices are required to either complete the mandatory program or invest some extra effort and earn a high school equivalency diploma (Berufsmaturität) at the same time. Students who fail theirs drop to the standard program and continue their apprenticeship. Upon completion, those who chose to get a Berufsmatur hold the necessary certifications to get into any University of Applied Sciences in their field and pursue a Bachelor's or Master's degree. Access to general Universities is limited to those holding a "proper" Matura, but there even is a one-year program for people with a Berufsmatur to attain a full Matura. Universities again are (to some degree) required to offer part-time programs, so studying and working at the same time is possible. Finally, students who finished an UAS BSc/MSc are generally admitted to standard Universities. Some terms (between half a semester and a full year of extra classes required) may apply, but there actually is a reasonable path from dropping out of "proper" high school to getting an MSc or possibly even a ScD/PhD. Just like Tobi I consider myself a kinesthetic learner. School never really piqued my interest, so my performance was lackluster. I went for an apprenticeship instead, combined it with a Berufsmatur, later on with a BSc in Computer Science and as I am now finishing my MLaw in Cybercrime/Information Security, I am barely a year or two older than most of my peers but hold (including the apprenticeship) around a decade of professional experience. (Usually four instead of five days a week, so feel free to subtract a 20% dicsount.)
peter303 12y ago
Programming was usually taught in trade schools in the USA during 1960s and 1970s. That aspect slowed down some schools like MIT declaring computer science as a full-fledged major until 1980.
- hga 12y ago
  Nope, at least not in MIT's case, which would hardly be paying attention to trade schools while they were inventing a very large fraction of the field! I can find out more precisely when the 6-3 major was created if you wish, but I'm almost certain it was before 1980 (at the very least I think I would have remembered it was brand new when I declared 6-3 at the end of the 79-80 academic year). Any delay happened because CS departments, at least in those days, came from either Math or EE departments, the latter in MIT's case. So people initially just got majors in the original field before a separate degree was broken out. And in the case of MIT and perhaps other departments starting from EE (I get this impression about UCB going only by required undergraduate courses), there is no "pure" CS degree, since the department believes you can't entirely separate it from EE, and vice versa. So students have to do core courses in both (or now 2 ones that combine both), and the degrees are in both, with an emphasis in one or the other or neither. As of later, the latter course was preferred by most majors.
blisterpeanuts 12y ago
Interesting article; thanks for posting it. I don't know that much about Germany's apprenticeship system except that it's a much more well established and accepted concept than in the U.S. Northeastern University in Boston, Massachusetts, has an internship program where engineering undergrads spend a semester working at a real company. The companies benefit from free labor, and the students benefit from real world experience and resume building. It's amazing to me that this system isn't more widely adopted. Some people claim the students should be paid a "fair salary" or some such arguments. Anyway, the Germans must be doing something right. Germany is still the #3 or #4 industrial producer in the world (China has surpassed them in recent years) and their products are still very high quality. Apart from the obvious example of top notch automobiles, I'm mostly familiar with German stage equipment -- microphone stands, wireless systems, instrument cases, etc.--and I've found them to be just really good quality, designed to last, and very usable.
- spacecowboy_lon 12y ago
  That is actulay very common in the UK to do an extended period working for a real company as part of your degree we had some very good university students at BT including one from ENA!
k__ 12y ago
Funny thing is, getting an apprenticeship is almost harder than getting in university here in Germany. At least of you wanna do it in a good company. Also, I find the talking about how dropping out of school will sound strange to americans funny. I got the impression that dropping out and doing your own thing is more appreciated in the US than in germany where ever job offering requires a degree or two...

105 points by bootload 12y ago

an interesting reference mentioned by @visakanv in, "Peter Thiel's Dropout Club" post ~ https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9020043 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9020043

showsover 12y ago

>It was the perfect environment for me, I learned a lot, and I am eternally thankful to have chosen that path. If only more countries struggling with dropout rates and job creation would give their students a similar choice. How does this help job creation? Does the author mean the overhead of training interns?

rhia 12y ago
The author probably means that it makes a lot of sense of offer people who don't want to go to uni a better perspective than working tough manual labour or minimum wage service industry jobs for the rest of their life. Not every degree currently taught at university is really necessary to perform well in the jobs that those graduates normally get. America would do well to re-evalute the necessity of degrees when vocational training can produce equally skilled workers at a much lower cost for the economy as a whole.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

jarcane 12y ago

There is a program like this here in Finland as well, and I have been highly intrigued by it, and I intend to discuss the option with my employment adviser this week. I am 33 years old. I simply do not have the time to pursue a full degree, and I frankly had a mixed experience in college/uni and am not necessarily in a hurry to do it again. At the same time though, I've a strong interest in some potentially academic subjects and I sometimes find myself doubting I can make a go of it purely on self-study, so I'm a little lost for where to go next or if I should even just dive into paid work.

unimportant 12y ago

German companies are totally backwards compared to US companies and usually managed in rather totalitarian ways. This might work for someone who does not mind this or who has a place to stay while earning less than 1k USD a month for years, but it certainly did not work for me and I choose min wage jobs and self learning instead. Self learners are considered unemployable in Germany, but it gets one a fair chance in the UK or Ireland.

dghf 12y ago
> German companies are totally backwards compared to US companies and usually managed in rather totalitarian ways. Can you give some specifics?
- unimportant 12y ago
  Backwards in terms of largely using outdated technologies, requiring you to send a printed CV with your picture (slowly changing now), very formal hiring process, unwilling to hire anyone without a matching degree rand certifications regardless of skills, largely unrealistic expectations regarding work experience and skills (requirering 5 years of iPhone dev experience when it was just out for a year was common), in larger companies a PhD is needed to get promoted above certain positions etc. etc. Europe truely is the "old world", with London being the only place where startups have a somewhat realistic chance of getting funded on reasonable terms, however entry level developer salaries are still poverty level in London for the first 3 years or so, as there are more candidates than jobs, unlike in the US.
  - marrs 12y ago
    Last I checked, entry level salaries for a graduate were about £30k. For a non-grad that would drop to around £20k, which is still more than all the debt you have to take on to go to university.
    - unimportant 12y ago
      20k is barely liveable in London and if you get laid off before you make significantly more, then you'll have a serious problem if you don't qualify for welfare yet. 30k is already on the high end. In SF, which has similar rents, entry level devs mostly make 70-80k USD, with 60k being rock bottom.

jakobegger 12y ago

We also have the apprentice system in Austria. It's not always as nice as this. If you manage to get an apprenticeship at a good company like Siemens, you'll receive great education. They put a lot of effort into educating apprentices, and after three years you'll be able to get a reasonably well paid job quickly, either at the same company or at a different company. But especially lots of smaller businesses don't have the time and resources to take proper care of their apprentices. Especially in the service industry, apprentices are just hired because they provide cheap labor. Apprentices at restaurants or supermarkets will often spend three years performing only the most menial work, and the "Berufschulen" (vocational schools) are extremely low quality. After spending 3 years in an apprenticeship like this, you'll have trouble finding a proper job, since employers would rather just hire a new cheap apprentice.

unimportant 12y ago
Everybody wants to work for big companies like Siemens, so they filter people out via school grades (people that hate the educational system usually have bad grades) and inane logical thinking tests that go on for hours. If you don't fit in, you're pretty much on your way to permanent welfare or min wage jobs in Germany unless you emigrate like I did. The author just got lucky and fit in a bit better than I did.
- spacecowboy_lon 12y ago
  Quite how would some one like Woz be treated.
  - unimportant 12y ago
    The best and brightest in the US would probably be suicidal welfare candidates in Germany, but enough whining from me for now, as I have been to enough third world countries to know that it can always be worse...
    - smcl 12y ago
      That seems a little harsh, or sarcasm or I've missed the point. Why would those who would otherwise be the best and brightest in the US be headed for welfare if they were raised in Germany?

spacecowboy_lon 12y ago

Unfortunetly this is a well meaning article but totally misses the point that Germany has a unique apprenticeship system - in English speaking countries techies have enough trouble with low social status compared to other professions. Let alone the disastrous effect of that Bloody “apprentice” program the BBC puts out which has done god only knows how much damage to the term Apprentice I started out on what some might call an apprenticeship technically a professional apprentice – ie the one you did after doing a trade apprenticeship and sittng half way between trade and a university degree – but none of us who where all bar one all working for elite organizations (mostly in the defence and rnd sector) would have said we where NOT! apprentices we where Junior members of the Mechanical engineers thank you very much. How ever there are some major downsides to the Ultra rigid German school system you get pigenholed into one track or the other at an early age and its I understand very hard to break out an I believe until the EU put its foot down impossible. The problem with this rigid streaming is you decide very early what kids are going to do in later life and as one German HN commenter said its funny how it is the “brown” skinned Germans who seem to make up most of the vocational schools - and you can see the same in the USA and the UK with Black Kids pigeonholed as vocational track. For example a mate of mine works for one of the big 4 consultancies and he mentions some BME kids and he said its tragic that the schools aren’t prepping the kids to go into those professions.

xal 12y ago
I totally missed the point because I didn't make it about race?
- spacecowboy_lon 12y ago
  No its mainly primarily about damaging the social staus of the technical profesion in Anglo Saxon Contrys - but the fact that school systems like germany that force kids into one track do descriminate against those who dont fit in is very widley known. You where also asuming the the system Germay has evolved would work in other countrys with aparently no undertsanding of how Industrial relations and socity has evolved.

xal 12y ago

I'm the OP. Happy to answer questions about this.

jtaylor100 12y ago
Not a question but I just wanted to thank you for this piece it was great to read. I hope someday to find a person like Jürgen.
- xal 12y ago
  Or better yet, become someone's Jürgen.
  - visakanv 12y ago
    Breaking out of each box, one box at a time. :-)
ainiriand 12y ago
Hi! I developed my career exactly the same way. I dropped out of school and I always knew that I wanted to work in software. But here in Spain when I left the school we had no apprentice plan for computers and I had to code a lot of stuff and do a lot other jobs to get an entry job in software. Now I work at the biggest cellphone maker in Spain and I'm very happy, but the road could have been easier!
hkarthik 12y ago
You mentioned wanting to create a similar environment at Shopify. How has that been implemented and how is it working out?
- xal 12y ago
  Frustrating. We've build the environment ( dealt with the supply side ) but we can't bootstrap the demand. Parents are fundamentally opposed to the idea of their kids starting their career before they have the degree.

underlines 12y ago

Switzerland has the same concept and we have some of the best professionals coming from apprenticeships, we do 4 years here for some of the more "complicated" fields like chemistry and software developer. I am a Swiss software developer with the apprenticeship title and I tried to find work abroad (mainly asia). Problem: Around the world that dual education system is unknown or not well recognized and not even respected. Despite that most apprenticeship professionals form Germany, Switzerland and Austria are slightly "better" after finishing their education than most MD graduates! In early 2014 the president of South Korea came to visit my vocational school in Bern, Switzerland because they may implement the dual education system according to the state news: https://www.news.admin.ch/message/index.html?lang=en&msg-id=51711 https://www.news.admin.ch/message/index.html?lang=en&msg-id=...

phlo 12y ago
As underlines mentioned, Switzerland has a similar concept of apprenticeships. The aspect I appreciate most (and as far as I am aware somewhat separates the Swiss system from others) is the permeability between the trade and academic spheres. The vocational schooling (as discussed in the article) consists of two parts; technical skills and general education. The latter part is divided into two groups: apprentices are required to either complete the mandatory program or invest some extra effort and earn a high school equivalency diploma (Berufsmaturität) at the same time. Students who fail theirs drop to the standard program and continue their apprenticeship. Upon completion, those who chose to get a Berufsmatur hold the necessary certifications to get into any University of Applied Sciences in their field and pursue a Bachelor's or Master's degree. Access to general Universities is limited to those holding a "proper" Matura, but there even is a one-year program for people with a Berufsmatur to attain a full Matura. Universities again are (to some degree) required to offer part-time programs, so studying and working at the same time is possible. Finally, students who finished an UAS BSc/MSc are generally admitted to standard Universities. Some terms (between half a semester and a full year of extra classes required) may apply, but there actually is a reasonable path from dropping out of "proper" high school to getting an MSc or possibly even a ScD/PhD. Just like Tobi I consider myself a kinesthetic learner. School never really piqued my interest, so my performance was lackluster. I went for an apprenticeship instead, combined it with a Berufsmatur, later on with a BSc in Computer Science and as I am now finishing my MLaw in Cybercrime/Information Security, I am barely a year or two older than most of my peers but hold (including the apprenticeship) around a decade of professional experience. (Usually four instead of five days a week, so feel free to subtract a 20% dicsount.)

peter303 12y ago

Programming was usually taught in trade schools in the USA during 1960s and 1970s. That aspect slowed down some schools like MIT declaring computer science as a full-fledged major until 1980.

hga 12y ago
Nope, at least not in MIT's case, which would hardly be paying attention to trade schools while they were inventing a very large fraction of the field! I can find out more precisely when the 6-3 major was created if you wish, but I'm almost certain it was before 1980 (at the very least I think I would have remembered it was brand new when I declared 6-3 at the end of the 79-80 academic year). Any delay happened because CS departments, at least in those days, came from either Math or EE departments, the latter in MIT's case. So people initially just got majors in the original field before a separate degree was broken out. And in the case of MIT and perhaps other departments starting from EE (I get this impression about UCB going only by required undergraduate courses), there is no "pure" CS degree, since the department believes you can't entirely separate it from EE, and vice versa. So students have to do core courses in both (or now 2 ones that combine both), and the degrees are in both, with an emphasis in one or the other or neither. As of later, the latter course was preferred by most majors.

blisterpeanuts 12y ago

Interesting article; thanks for posting it. I don't know that much about Germany's apprenticeship system except that it's a much more well established and accepted concept than in the U.S. Northeastern University in Boston, Massachusetts, has an internship program where engineering undergrads spend a semester working at a real company. The companies benefit from free labor, and the students benefit from real world experience and resume building. It's amazing to me that this system isn't more widely adopted. Some people claim the students should be paid a "fair salary" or some such arguments. Anyway, the Germans must be doing something right. Germany is still the #3 or #4 industrial producer in the world (China has surpassed them in recent years) and their products are still very high quality. Apart from the obvious example of top notch automobiles, I'm mostly familiar with German stage equipment -- microphone stands, wireless systems, instrument cases, etc.--and I've found them to be just really good quality, designed to last, and very usable.

spacecowboy_lon 12y ago
That is actulay very common in the UK to do an extended period working for a real company as part of your degree we had some very good university students at BT including one from ENA!

k__ 12y ago

Funny thing is, getting an apprenticeship is almost harder than getting in university here in Germany. At least of you wanna do it in a good company. Also, I find the talking about how dropping out of school will sound strange to americans funny. I got the impression that dropping out and doing your own thing is more appreciated in the US than in germany where ever job offering requires a degree or two...