5 ms·
Don't call yourself a programmer (2011)
- thedufer 12y ago[2011] would be appropriate in the title.
- Ideka 12y agoHonest question: Why do people care so much about or like having the year in the title? In some situations I can see it being needed to prevent big confusions, but many times I see people put the year in the title when it doesn't really seem to matter. In this particular case for instance, I don't see why it would be needed.
- k-mcgrady 12y agoNot the parent but the reason I like to see the year in the title in cases like this is because I've seen it previously. I looked at the title and thought, "I think I've read that before" but as it was here on HN which is mostly comprised of new content I thought it might be something new clicked through. If the year was in the title I would have immediately known I had read it before and not had to click through and read some of it to find out.
- comrade1 12y agoPlease don't call yourself an engineer unless you've got the ring.
- spiritplumber 12y agoI wasn't given a ring because my school doesn't do the ceremony :( Actually, I had this conversation with someone in Italy, who said I couldn't put "engineer" on my business card because of some certification or another that was missing. What I did was give him a quick lab tour, with emphasis on the battlebots. It worked.
- dsacco 12y agoWhile I understand the sentiment, this is pretty insulting to a lot of people who bear the title "engineer" without having completed an engineering degree. You're not going to be able to win this, it's like being upset that the definition of "literally" has changed. Many people without degrees are employed by companies like Google and Microsoft with the title "engineer." Some of my friends don't have college degrees at all, and they demonstrably understand computer science fundamentals, algorithm design and software development better than many or even most college graduates.
- comrade1 12y agoMaybe it's like that in the USA, but it isn't like that in most of the world. 'Engineer' means something.
- dsacco 12y agoI can respect that. But to pose devil's advocate - why do you believe the education is special? If we begin with a formal analysis, this sentiment begins with "Is it possible for an individual to learn everything required to be a fully competant software engineer without going to university?" If you agree this is possible, that there is at least one human being capable of this, then the "special" meaning of engineer becomes limited to title and investment paid in a college education. It no longer is an absolute determination of skillset or intelligence. There is data in favor of that statement. Google conducted a study that showed an extremely weak correlation between degree and hiring results, at least within its own company. And there are numerous examples of people who have accomplished quite a bit in the realm of legitimate software engineering without a degree.
- onion2k 12y agoEngineer is a description of what someone does, not what qualifications they have.
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- mvid 12y ago$10 makes you an engineer. Please. http://www.order-of-the-engineer.org/?page_id=237 http://www.order-of-the-engineer.org/?page_id=237
- s_baby 12y agoWhy? Do you think there's something exceptional about being an "Engineer"?
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- jghn 12y agoIn some countries there is, and it's a legal thing. It'd be like calling yourself a doctor when you're not.
- coupdejarnac 12y agoIt's like this in the USA, too. The only reason why people aren't penalized for calling themselves engineers when they are not licensed is because they work under the umbrella of a corporation that grants them an exception to the rule.
- all_your_gold 12y agoIn many countries, there is: you can't be an engineer without ... an actual engineering degree.
- r-s 12y agoIn Canada everyone with an engineering degree gets a ring. I do find it funny that I work with several Chemical and Mechanical engineers who hold the title Software Engineer, but myself with a Comp Sci degree get the title Software Developer.
- coupdejarnac 12y agoIt's actually a card, not a ring. ;)
- atarian 12y agoPlease don't call yourself an engineer unless you're licensed: http://ncees.org/about-ncees/news/ncees-introduces-pe-exam-for-software-engineering/ http://ncees.org/about-ncees/news/ncees-introduces-pe-exam-f...
- deleted 12y ago[deleted]
- ZanyProgrammer 12y agoSoftware engineering-the only Engineering field I know of where people professionally represent themselves as such without a four year degree with the word "engineering" in the title-hacking Linux and PHP since you were 15 seems to suffice.
- mhurron 12y agoI dislike the use of engineer for the IT industry. It was a title that was picked because it made you seem like more than you are, riding on the actual engineering disciplines that have to work for that title.
- pconner 12y agoIt's not the only industry that does that. "Audio engineers" don't always have formal education
- all_your_gold 12y agoI'm an electrical engineer and despise the entire usage of this title by non-engineers. Most engineers live and die by standardization, rules and responsibility that most so-called software engineers would hate.
- shawnhermans 12y agoWhat does standardization, rules and responsibility have to do with being an engineer? Yes engineering does often involve a great deal of those things, but that is not the defining quality of being an engineer. Fundamentally, an engineer is a person who applies scientific and mathematical knowledge to solving problems. Also, to say that software engineers care nothing for standardization, rules and responsibility is unfair. Software engineers use standardized languages such as C and Java. We often use standards from the IEEE, IETF, and ISO. Depending upon the industry we support, we are often bound by very strict rules and regulations. Examples include software engineers in the defense, aerospace, banking, and health industries. Bottomline is software engineering is just as valid as any other form of engineering.
- bshimmin 12y agoLots of great advice, and featured here at least five times previously. This submission has the most comments, I think: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3170766 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3170766
- xvirk 12y agowasn't it posted 4 years ago ?
- Anderkent 12y agoOr, you know, don't play their game. You don't need to babble in politics, work in adversarial environments where 'someone is looking to get you fired', and deal with all the bullshit in OP. Find a small (10-20 people) software shop/consultancy, work on interesting problems, write good code, be free of all that shit.
- Killswitch 12y agoI call myself a certified web ninja.
- aptwebapps 12y agoHas anyone ever asked to see your certificate?
- Killswitch 12y agoOnly my mom. But she accepted my crayon drawing certificate.
- failed_ideas 12y agoI would recommend against this in Canada, as it's illegal.
- ffn 12y agoMost of what Patrick (the writer) says is decent advice, and yes, it is important to publish your hobby junk, get feedback, go to meetups, and generally involve oneself into the community as it is not only helpful to one's career, but also fun. That being said, I don't particularly agree on the "don't be modest" comment. Rather, it really should be "don't be ashamed of what you build" (with the caveat of no matter how shameful it is), that is, openly show people (both online and in real life) what you've built, the problems you're encountering, the solutions you've come up with, etc. That is, proudly say to them "Hey, check this out, I built X, it's a Y, and I think it's great... but let me know what you think and don't be afraid of hurting my feelings." And whether they reply with "Hey, you're right, it's great! Here's Z dollars for your startup", or (if you're testing on 4chan as I do) they say "OP, you suck, why does your site need this much JS? Go die in a fire, you worthless cuck", be modest and meek with your reply. Thank them for their input, actually consider the merit of what they're saying, don't get emotionally flustered or discouraged, and continue bumping your thread / iterating. So I guess it's this really weird and almost conflicting mindset one has to be to have a good career experience; one needs to be proud and shameless about one's self and work, yet modest and meek when it comes to its reception and feedback.
- AngeloR 12y agoThe word that you're looking for is balance.
- rosstex 12y agoWelp, guess I'll go be a professor.
- k-mcgrady 12y agoSurprised at the elitism evident in many comments here. It's a title. Nothing more. A lot of people seem to be saying you must complete an engineering degree to call yourself an engineer - what if I learnt the same skills without paying extortionate fees and wasting a lot of my time for four years? It almost seems like people are trying to justify their time and money spent at University by claiming exclusivity on the engineering title. At the the end of the day it doesn't matter. The only people who really care about titles are hiring managers and people trying to get hired. Once you're in the job, as long as you have the skills nothing else matters. It seems like the debates around the use of the word hacker or startup. A waste of time.
- jghn 12y ago"The only people who really care about titles are hiring managers and people trying to get hired" One thing I've been trying to change in my company's culture is caring about the titles of applicants. IMO titles are only meaningful within the same company and can't be compare outside. For instance, I've worked in companies where "Senior Software Engineer" meant "you didn't just graduate from college" and I've worked at places where that meant you had 10+ years of experience and showed serious technical skills.
- maaaats 12y ago> A lot of people seem to be saying you must complete an engineering degree to call yourself an engineer In many countries, it's a protected title. So yes, then you will need to have an engineering degree.
- TheCoelacanth 12y agoI'm not in any of those countries, so no, I don't.
- maaaats 12y agoThanks for your contribution to the discussion.
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- atarian 12y agoPersonally, I prefer to call myself a developer around my computing peers. To the average layperson I call myself a programmer. But when I apply to a new company, I bust out all the fancy engineering titles my past employers have given me. But going back to the OT, I think Patrick is really talking about mindset. Basically don't sell yourself short.
- napoleond 12y agoDiscussion around the use of the word "engineer" is unfortunate, and seems to be missing the point. FWIW, I am an electrical engineer (degree, ring, the whole enchilada) and have the same conditioned reflex toward hearing the word "engineer" applied casually, but: (a) My school didn't offer a software engineering degree. Very few in Canada do. (b) The first electrical engineers (and mechanical engineers, and civil engineers) did not have degrees in that field--they invented it. The field of software engineering is still very new (especially compared to mech and civil), so it's not reasonable to expect everyone who practices it to have formal credentials. (c) Being a stickler about credentials is a stupid way to behave. Obviously, engineering credentials are important safeguards in many fields (someone needs to approve the bridge, airplane part, etc) but software doesn't have the same safeguards. (Whether it should or not is a completely different discussion.) (d) None of this is really what the article is about. It's simply saying that how we describe our profession is important. I work in software full-time nowadays, and although I still wear the ring I usually describe myself as a "software developer" when people ask. It doesn't matter though, because the next question is "what kind of software" and then I focus on the value of what my software does, relative to the person asking.
- lfowles 12y agoComputer engineer here, with the US equivalent of the ring. I'm also a software developer, but my resume says software engineer, because that's the name of the position I hold at work. I'm always a little confused why people are so touchy about the word "engineer". Here, at least, there is a very clear distinction between the word "engineer" and engineers who sign off on projects. It's not like there are thousands of resumes out there purporting to have a Software PE license. I'd appreciate if someone can clear up any misconceptions I have about PE licensing, especially as it applies to other countries.
- bkirwi 12y agoIn Canada, as I understand it, it's illegal to refer to yourself as an engineer / a position as an engineering position unless you have Real Engineering Credentials. So a lot of the touchiness is just the usual sensitivity you find around a legal issue.
- auxym 12y agoI really enjoyed a couple of Patrick's posts on career advice, despite myself not working directly in the software industry. I was wondering, are any of you aware of similar bloggers/websites/books/whatever that have similar information, but more oriented towards other engineers?
- jszymborski 12y agoIf people who wrote code stopped calling themselves "artisans" as well, I'd be quite happy.
- FLUX-YOU 12y ago>Engineers in particular are usually very highly paid Cost Centers, which sets MBA’s optimization antennae to twitching. How?! They delivered the product in the first place! There's a million idea guys looking for a Woz to their Jobs on Craigslist. How many Woz's do you see looking for their Jobs? CEOs are the damn cost center with their exobitant benefit package that still gets handed out even if they sink the company. Engineers add features and improve the workflow to make it easier to use. Engineers give Sales its ammo. Because it's not the actual engineer that's fired from the cannon means they're now a cost center? I don't understand this shit and from what I've seen on the business side (especially with how the south does business), I think I'd rather shoot myself with a cannon before spending 20 years doing what I'm doing now.
- mynameishere 12y agoHow?! They delivered the product in the first place Yes, at Microsoft, where programmers are profit centers [1]. At GEICO, JP Morgan, Disney, Pfizer, Alcoa, etc, they are cost centers, on a level with accountants and HR. (What is the profit center at GEICO? Actuaries? Salesmen? Warren Buffet's kindly pig face? Talking lizards?) [1] Hence this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vhh_GeBPOhs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vhh_GeBPOhs
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- georgeecollins 12y agoGEICO's profit center is the return on the equity they hold as collateral for insurance policies.