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Techies Who Are Homeschooling Their Kids

132 points by tokenadult 12y ago

delluminatus 12y ago
Homeschooling is interesting, because it has the potential to be a lot better for children than public school, but it can also be a lot worse. It is a topic close to my heart because I was partly homeschooled, and I have seen firsthand some of the sad deficiencies that can dog homeschooled kids: 1. Lazy teaching – parents being unwilling to devote 4-6 hours each day to education. Homeschooling is a commitment that should be treated with the same gravitas as a full-time working position, but many parents have trouble maintaining this mentality over many years of education. This leads to kids that, although they might be bright, just haven't been taught much, which makes them seem dull. 2. Inherited ignorance – if the parents don’t know or care much about history, unbiased politics, mathematics, literature, etc. then the kids won’t either. Obviously, the parent can make a commitment to learn the field at least to a high school level so they can educate their kids, but often this commitment falls through. Because of that, homeschooled kids can lack a multidimensional perspective of the world. 3. Neuroticism – some parents have a tendency to like to make decisions for their children. This can be very dangerous for homeschooled kids, because they don’t learn how to think for themselves or make mistakes. 4. Social gracelessness – a lot of homeschooled kids have very little interaction with their peers. School can provide social acclimatization that parents often don’t know how to give their kids. Especially if the kid is naturally shy, since parents rarely want to put their kids in a social situation where they are uncomfortable. Unfortunately, this can just exacerbate the issue, to the extent that the kids have nervous breakdowns when they finally do have to engage their peers (yes, I've seen this happen). This is just the tip of the iceberg. I don't want to say that it's impossible for one person (usually, it's just one parent that is home during the day) to provide a well-rounded education to their kids, just that it's hard -- very, very hard. You need to help your kids make friends, and you need to let them be independent. You need to be a committed and capable educator, and you need to give them a dynamic education with diverse experience, not just doing workbooks in the house. Some people are good at this -- they are natural teachers. Other people find it much, much harder.
- B-Con 12y ago
  What you're describing is "homeschooling" used as code for "no schooling". Both I and many of my friends were homeschooled. In the circles I was in, most homeschool parents were ambitious and committed to their kid's educations. It is indeed a full job for the parent.
  - n_to_the_flower 12y ago
    There's more variance in homeschooling, but it can be more effective than either private or public schooling if it's managed effectively. The major benefit is approaching teaching without as much spoon-feeding (better critical thinking/doing skills) and zapping curioisity with pointless memorization.
    - beauzero 12y ago
      There are also programs that let a child (depending upon state) do the curriculum from home. K12.com has a partnership with the state of Georgia. You have online learning, participation in standardized testing, etc. all provided free by the state. We have found this to be a viable alternative for one of our daughters who felt she was being held back in her current middle school. Apparently she was. Not only has she made up the "conversion time"...basically redoing the 2 months worth of online work that she missed while she was in her local middle school at the beginning of the year...she has also improved dramatically. The thing I think that I am most excited about is that she is learning how to teach herself. Her study habits, although good previously, are what I would say I had in my third year of college. If you have a child that is extremely motivated this might be an option for your family. It filled a need for us.
  - blfr 12y ago
    There is a tiny (n=12 for unschooled kids) study[1] I saw linked on SSC[2] that apparently shows children educated in "unstructured homeschool" are only one grade behind their peers. So even serious shirking of responsibility doesn't have catastrophic effects. [1] http://www.researchgate.net/publication/232544669_The_impact_of_schooling_on_academic_achievement_Evidence_from_homeschooled_and_traditionally_schooled_students/file/9c9605228ea23bc4bc.pdf http://www.researchgate.net/publication/232544669_The_impact... [2] http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/05/23/ssc-gives-a-graduation-speech/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/05/23/ssc-gives-a-graduation-...
ladytron 12y ago
Anyone who is not sure of 100% homeschooling can check with your local school district to see if they allow part time students. I'm officially a homeschooler by state law but my kids go to a local public school a few hours a day, four days a week. They call it "fun school". They go to lunch, recess, and all the specials (art, music, PE, technology, Spanish), and an extra conversational Spanish class. They go on all the class trips, school concerts, fundraiser parties, etc. They each have loads of "school friends" and get invited to tons of birthday parties, etc. The public school kids in their classes (an extremely diverse group)seem to love and accept them. The "no schooling" concerns are valid and I think it is like running a business - when you homeschool you might like some objective advisers outside of your family to keep you on your toes. This "educational advisory panel" can take many forms. For example, we use the Kumon private tutoring center to make sure we don't miss any holes with English and the Mathnasium center and Khan Academy to cover all the broad topics in math. These are private programs and they are expensive but worth it - kids who go through them ace standardized tests. It's very "tiger mom" and a good balance to the "unschooling" philosophy. They are still way cheaper than private school for a big family and they don't take much time out of the week. This leaves room for all those "creative class, student led inquiry based projects" and family/friend/socializing time pursuits. It works for us :-)
- icelancer 12y ago
  Huh. This sounds like a really good idea.
- beauzero 12y ago
  In some states, like Georgia, there are online partnerships that will handle all of the school curriculum but allow the child to work at their own pace. The only additional cost is the workspace/laptop, etc. that you need to provide your child.
breckinloggins 12y ago
I like to catch conservative radio when I go on road trips. I find it entertaining but I also find that it's valuable to listen to the so-called "other side" every once in a while. I heard something on Limbaugh's show several months ago on one of these trips that has stuck with me ever since. A caller was telling Rush about a new bathroom policy in his neighborhood's public elementary school that allowed transgendered children to use whichever bathroom most closely aligned with their sexual identity. To the caller, this was the height of liberal filth. He rejected not only the idea that transgendered people really exist, but that a child would even HAVE a sexual identity at an early age. He was furious that he was having to explain to his son why a person who was "obviously a girl" got to use "his" restroom. The upshot of all this was that he claimed that this was the point he realized he was an alien in a secular universe, and that it was time to pull his children out of public school and homeschool them. Why did I tell that story? Why did it stick with me? Because, to me, it highlights a feeling I've been having about something very profound that's happening to America. I don't know if it's a wonderful thing or a disaster (or both), but I have an irresistible gut feeling that it's happening. I'm talking about the emergence of a new national mitosis. North vs South, Red State vs Blue State, liberal vs conservative, religious vs secular. Whatever you want to call it, Americans - it seems - are separating themselves into two (or more) distinct and ideologically opposed groups. This is nothing new, of course, but what IS new (at least in my memory) is that there are fewer and fewer opportunities for common discourse. All sides are not only furious at each other, they are genuinely mystified by each other. That's why I found Rush's caller so interesting. I could hear something in his and Rush's voice that was far beyond anger and the usual partisan name-calling. It was pure cultural shock and confusion; like a martian landing in Times Square. So what does that all have to do with techies homeschooling their kids? It strikes me as significant that though there is no simple way to divide these two groups (and there is definitely overlap), both of them are beginning to eschew public education. If you are passionately pro "tech" or passionately pro "God", it seems there is little left that public schools (and mainstream society itself) can offer you and your children. These two groups have more alike than might first appear. Both groups feel that there is something so rotten at the core as to be nigh unfixable (whether loss of Biblical values on the one side or complete loss of intellectual curiosity on the other). I don't have any deep insights as to why we seem to be splitting into multiple Americas or what might happen next, but I can feel that it's happening. If you want to watch the proverbial canaries in the coal mine, watch who homeschools their kids.
n_to_the_flower 12y ago
Suppose your child were exceptionally gifted. The "IEP"-ish customized learning at one's own (accelerated) pace be homeschooling's major advantage: to unlimit progress without being hindered by an impersonal, one-sized-fits-all class. The critical part of homeschooling seems to be providing a mix of play and unstructured learning with other bright kids. How would that work with homeschooling in urban, suburban and rural areas? (I've seen some homeschooling in rural areas, where kids have neighbors to play and go on "field trips" with, but there isn't much choice in terms of other bright kids able to work on science and maker projects together.)
tomohawk 12y ago
Whether home schooled, private schooled, or public schooled, it's ultimately the parent's responsibility to educate their child. One danger of public schools is that parents can get a false sense of security about whether their child is being properly educated. It can be easy to get into autopilot mode and trust that there are good things going on at the school. As long as the child is passing classes, being promoted to the next grade on schedule, and gets a diploma everything should be good - no? Unfortunately, such indicators don't appear to mean much. I know several people who received extremely deficient educations, and yet passed all classes and got a diploma. In one case, the person received their diploma without knowing basic addition/subtraction or other arithmetic, and could barely read. They've since taken years of private tutoring (at their own expense, since the state owes them nothing once they grant the diploma). So, they could certainly learn, but apparently the school didn't teach. The parents in this case were not well educated themselves, and were trusting that the school was doing its job. It's easy to throw rocks at them for not paying more attention, but what the heck was the school doing? There's certainly no perfect system, but parents who are taking on the homeschooling responsibility deserve a lot of latitude and support.
- tokenadult 12y ago
  The evident downvotes on your comment were really unfair, as what you report squares with my experience (it is part of my motivation for homeschooling) and anyway is reported in all of the better research literature on school effectiveness in the United States. Yes, parents have to take responsibility for their children's educations, period, whether or not their children attend school.
- aidenn0 12y ago
  At least in the part of California I live, there is no danger of even marginally aware parents getting a false sense of security; it's blindingly obvious that the kids aren't getting properly educated. I knew the schools here weren't great, but I had no idea how bad they were until my oldest started 3 years ago. We at least have a lot of options, with my wife being a stay-at-home mom, and my salary being enough to afford modest private school tuition. My heart breaks for those who are just making ends meet with two earners (or only a single parent). They really have no options other than the public school system, which is a shame. [edit] It also somewhat astonished me that the schools are so poorly funded; it's a fairly affluent area with high property values, so I would have expected better funding. California natives blame it on Prop 13, and I would like to see the math on that; the per-student funding here today is about what it was when I was in elementary school on the East Coast in the 80s, which is less than half as much in real dollars.
A_COMPUTER 12y ago
I have some family friends who homeschooled their six kids. The first three got a thorough, good education and were well-socialized. The last three, not so much. Their mom was older and tired by then, and community support had diminished after the 80's. I will say this though, even though a couple turned out to be "problem children" anyway, they weren't uniquely bad compared to troubled kids in public school.
icantthinkofone 12y ago
fwiw, I homeschooled my two boys. One graduated summa cum laude from a well known university. The other graduated in the top 10% of another well known school. And I think I did a lousy job of it. If enough people show an interest, I'll go into it more tomorrow but, for now, I'm going to bed.
- Rainymood 12y ago
  Please do. I am very intrigued.
  - walljm 12y ago
    I'll let zaphar tell his side of it (he's my brother), but the way I remember mom telling it, the school was disinterested in dealing with certain issues he was having in class. The problem was, zaphar knew everything he needed to know in 1st grade before he showed up the first day. He got excessively bored in class as a result and developed a daydreaming habit his teachers didn't want to take the time address. By the time he was in 2nd grade, he was learning nothing and fell behind. The teachers met with my mom as they usually do and told her that they were just going to pass him to the next class instead of keeping him back. Mom thought that was "unacceptable" and that was part of what prompted my parents to pull him out and homeschool us. It took her a couple years to break him of the habit (and a lot of one on one interaction). There are probably other things zaphar might know, but that's how I remember it. As a result, I never went to public schools at all (with the exception of drivers ed in highschool). Kindergarten was 30 mins a day for a summer. I would run up to mom and say "let have school!" and then when i got bored we would stop. For the record, I was socially awkward. I'm naturally shy and that didn't help. I eventually overcame that (though it does come out when i'm more fatigued) and would like to think I can hold my own socially. But I doubt public school would have been good for me. If it was anything like college was, I would have done far worse academically. I hate lectures, they make me sleepy and bored and I retain very little. I need to read and work the problems to understand them. Mostly, I marvel at the waste of time. I could typically do all my homework in ~4 hours (or less if i was being diligent) and be done with school by lunch. Sitting for nearly 8 hours a day (given my aggressively active nature as a child) would have been torture.
JacobAldridge 12y ago
I harbour a vision to live a location independent lifestyle, which almost of necessity would require some element of homeschooling (though I shared here yesterday why this part hasn't moved from vision to strategy yet [1]). That means keeping my eyes open for any similar experiences, and I've recently fallen in love with these guys [2] because they're the first "family nomads" I've come across who also talk about managing a mortgage back home etc (most people on a permanent holiday are singles in their 20s and 30s - I need assets, not cheap laundry tips). This article in particular looks at the challenges they've overcome, and extensive research they've found, in deciding positively to homeschool their children abroad - http://www.escapingexpectations.com/are-homeschooled-kids-destined-to-become-social-misfits-in-adulthood/ http://www.escapingexpectations.com/are-homeschooled-kids-de... [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8994656 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8994656 [2] http://www.escapingexpectations.com/ http://www.escapingexpectations.com/ [Edit] Let me also add, in case he's too modest to, Karl's excellent homeschool resource site Learn in Freedom - HN context and link https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5094480 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5094480
technomancy 12y ago
If you haven't read Seymour Papert's Mindstorms book (ostensibly about the creation of Logo, but actually more about math education facilitated by exploring concepts through programming), it's a real eye-opener. It's one of the main texts that got me excited about taking a hands-on role in my kids' education.
marknadal 12y ago
I was homeschooled and really enjoyed it. From my experience, the parents try to foster a passion for continued learning and self learning. With that perspective, a child grows up assuming their parent is biased and seeks out competing views. This skill of analysis and synthesis is incredibly critical. We can definitely sometimes be socially awkward (I can spot other homeschoolers a mile away) but I know a lot of friends who have become quite successful in their careers which does take quite a bit of social skills. My personal example is that I just raised money for my open source startup (http://github.com/amark/gun http://github.com/amark/gun) tackling the pains of databases. Most other homeschoolers I know went after the legal/political fields though. Feel free to ask me any questions. :)
fnordfnordfnord 12y ago
I've had a few home-schooled students in my college courses. The most memorable one was a fairly bright guy, excellent at math, and remarkably had never heard of the civil rights movement of the 1960's or anything at all having to do with race relations in the US. Between his lack of knowledge about racial tension, and other factors, he was definitely socially awkward; but everyone got through it unscathed. I don't think his parents were involved in tech. Overall, his HS education was probably not better or worse by a large degree than anyone else from one of the local high schools.
sbate1987 12y ago
My wife homeschooled my kids and they are weird, not necessarily in a good way. I find it harder to relate to them. Also my oldest complained that it really held her back in College. I would say its kind of more similar to the vaccination argument than it is not similar
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
bko 12y ago
> The Cook family are not just homeschoolers but unschoolers. They don’t prefer homeschooling simply because they find most schools too test-obsessed or underfunded or otherwise ineffective. It's interesting that even those that are skeptical about the US educational system system seem to cast the problem in very traditional terms. I think a big problem with the educational system is about the inefficiency of the bundling of goods. A lot of value has been generated from un-bundling of goods in other sectors. People used to read newspapers for news, sports, classifieds, op-ed, etc. Today' many people get their news from one venue, sports from another, and so on. I don't often hear people suggesting that maybe the system should be less bundled so students/parents have a choice to take different classes from different providers. A lot of schools may have good math programs but weaker English programs but there is no reason that these classes have to be bundled together. At the very least we should un-bundle sports from education. Although sports are beneficial to many young people, having them tied to an educational institute seems ridiculous. In regards to what these parents are doing, I'm happy with any experimentation. Hopefully some parents will be able to pool their resources and serve groups of children. One parent can teach engineering to the neighbors kids, and another can teach literature.
- mhall119 12y ago
  > Hopefully some parents will be able to pool their resources and serve groups of children. One parent can teach engineering to the neighbors kids, and another can teach literature. This happens quite a bit actually
  - ladytron 12y ago
    Marie Curie actually taught her kids this way for a few years. A small group of friends (mostly college professors) each picked a subject. Marie designed hands - on experiments to teach the group physics. She and Pierre Curie did not think much of France's school system at the time. In her biography their complaints about science education sound very contemporary. "The more things change, the more they stay the same".
epaga 12y ago
Sadly, home-schooling continues to be illegal in Germany, a law which was first instituted in the 1930s as the government wanted more control over education. The police will literally show up at your door and escort your kids to school if you attempt to home-school.
- hga 12y ago
  With this current infamous case as an example: https://www.google.com/search?q=german+homeschooling+family+deportation https://www.google.com/search?q=german+homeschooling+family+... Gleichschaltung is still a thing, even if it's relaxed and focused on a different ethos.
- zaphar 12y ago
  In elementary school in Texas I was home schooled and there were a number of times that Police/Truant Officers showed up to try to take us to school. The legality of Home Schooling was very much up in the air in the early days. No one ever succeeded in making it into the house since my Mom was very educated about her rights and the rights of her kids and was totally capable of standing up to anyone who came without a warrant. As a child of 6-10 years of age I thought it was incredibly exciting. Our family was rebelling against the Man!
  - walljm 12y ago
    this was a fairly common experience to those of us who were homeschooling some 30+ years ago (wow, has it been that long?). i know lots of friends with similar experiences, having prepared statements to tell adults who wanted to know why we were out during normal school hours, having to wait until after 3pm to go outside to play just to avoid the scrutiny.
brogrammer90 12y ago
I think these bottom of the barrel techies have got it wrong. How many home schooled kids have been accepted as founders into YC? My guess is not very many. Most founders are elite college graduates that come K-12 schools where standardized testing is the norm.
- ladytron 12y ago
  What is a bottom of the barrel techie? The percentage of homeschoolers in the population is extremely low, so it is doubtful that you would see a large group of them anywhere, including YC. I assume a large portion of techie homeschooler's kids will go onto college, some elite ones too. Homeschoolers generally do very well on standardized tests like the SAT and ACT because their literacy is very high.
hkarthik 12y ago
I've seen a few friends recently start homeschooling as a way to opt out of the public school system without paying for private school. In every one of these situations, the wife stays at home to raise and teach the kids while the man works. In many ways it forces a continuation of traditional gender roles, which I personally don't agree with. So while I understand and agree with some of the decisions these folks are making, there is a clear gender divide that they are ignorant of, or unwilling to even talk about.

132 points by tokenadult 12y ago

Homeschooling is interesting, because it has the potential to be a lot better for children than public school, but it can also be a lot worse. It is a topic close to my heart because I was partly homeschooled, and I have seen firsthand some of the sad deficiencies that can dog homeschooled kids: 1. Lazy teaching – parents being unwilling to devote 4-6 hours each day to education. Homeschooling is a commitment that should be treated with the same gravitas as a full-time working position, but many parents have trouble maintaining this mentality over many years of education. This leads to kids that, although they might be bright, just haven't been taught much, which makes them seem dull. 2. Inherited ignorance – if the parents don’t know or care much about history, unbiased politics, mathematics, literature, etc. then the kids won’t either. Obviously, the parent can make a commitment to learn the field at least to a high school level so they can educate their kids, but often this commitment falls through. Because of that, homeschooled kids can lack a multidimensional perspective of the world. 3. Neuroticism – some parents have a tendency to like to make decisions for their children. This can be very dangerous for homeschooled kids, because they don’t learn how to think for themselves or make mistakes. 4. Social gracelessness – a lot of homeschooled kids have very little interaction with their peers. School can provide social acclimatization that parents often don’t know how to give their kids. Especially if the kid is naturally shy, since parents rarely want to put their kids in a social situation where they are uncomfortable. Unfortunately, this can just exacerbate the issue, to the extent that the kids have nervous breakdowns when they finally do have to engage their peers (yes, I've seen this happen). This is just the tip of the iceberg. I don't want to say that it's impossible for one person (usually, it's just one parent that is home during the day) to provide a well-rounded education to their kids, just that it's hard -- very, very hard. You need to help your kids make friends, and you need to let them be independent. You need to be a committed and capable educator, and you need to give them a dynamic education with diverse experience, not just doing workbooks in the house. Some people are good at this -- they are natural teachers. Other people find it much, much harder.

B-Con 12y ago
What you're describing is "homeschooling" used as code for "no schooling". Both I and many of my friends were homeschooled. In the circles I was in, most homeschool parents were ambitious and committed to their kid's educations. It is indeed a full job for the parent.
- n_to_the_flower 12y ago
  There's more variance in homeschooling, but it can be more effective than either private or public schooling if it's managed effectively. The major benefit is approaching teaching without as much spoon-feeding (better critical thinking/doing skills) and zapping curioisity with pointless memorization.
  - beauzero 12y ago
    There are also programs that let a child (depending upon state) do the curriculum from home. K12.com has a partnership with the state of Georgia. You have online learning, participation in standardized testing, etc. all provided free by the state. We have found this to be a viable alternative for one of our daughters who felt she was being held back in her current middle school. Apparently she was. Not only has she made up the "conversion time"...basically redoing the 2 months worth of online work that she missed while she was in her local middle school at the beginning of the year...she has also improved dramatically. The thing I think that I am most excited about is that she is learning how to teach herself. Her study habits, although good previously, are what I would say I had in my third year of college. If you have a child that is extremely motivated this might be an option for your family. It filled a need for us.
- blfr 12y ago
  There is a tiny (n=12 for unschooled kids) study[1] I saw linked on SSC[2] that apparently shows children educated in "unstructured homeschool" are only one grade behind their peers. So even serious shirking of responsibility doesn't have catastrophic effects. [1] http://www.researchgate.net/publication/232544669_The_impact_of_schooling_on_academic_achievement_Evidence_from_homeschooled_and_traditionally_schooled_students/file/9c9605228ea23bc4bc.pdf http://www.researchgate.net/publication/232544669_The_impact... [2] http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/05/23/ssc-gives-a-graduation-speech/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/05/23/ssc-gives-a-graduation-...

ladytron 12y ago

Anyone who is not sure of 100% homeschooling can check with your local school district to see if they allow part time students. I'm officially a homeschooler by state law but my kids go to a local public school a few hours a day, four days a week. They call it "fun school". They go to lunch, recess, and all the specials (art, music, PE, technology, Spanish), and an extra conversational Spanish class. They go on all the class trips, school concerts, fundraiser parties, etc. They each have loads of "school friends" and get invited to tons of birthday parties, etc. The public school kids in their classes (an extremely diverse group)seem to love and accept them. The "no schooling" concerns are valid and I think it is like running a business - when you homeschool you might like some objective advisers outside of your family to keep you on your toes. This "educational advisory panel" can take many forms. For example, we use the Kumon private tutoring center to make sure we don't miss any holes with English and the Mathnasium center and Khan Academy to cover all the broad topics in math. These are private programs and they are expensive but worth it - kids who go through them ace standardized tests. It's very "tiger mom" and a good balance to the "unschooling" philosophy. They are still way cheaper than private school for a big family and they don't take much time out of the week. This leaves room for all those "creative class, student led inquiry based projects" and family/friend/socializing time pursuits. It works for us :-)

icelancer 12y ago
Huh. This sounds like a really good idea.
beauzero 12y ago
In some states, like Georgia, there are online partnerships that will handle all of the school curriculum but allow the child to work at their own pace. The only additional cost is the workspace/laptop, etc. that you need to provide your child.

breckinloggins 12y ago

I like to catch conservative radio when I go on road trips. I find it entertaining but I also find that it's valuable to listen to the so-called "other side" every once in a while. I heard something on Limbaugh's show several months ago on one of these trips that has stuck with me ever since. A caller was telling Rush about a new bathroom policy in his neighborhood's public elementary school that allowed transgendered children to use whichever bathroom most closely aligned with their sexual identity. To the caller, this was the height of liberal filth. He rejected not only the idea that transgendered people really exist, but that a child would even HAVE a sexual identity at an early age. He was furious that he was having to explain to his son why a person who was "obviously a girl" got to use "his" restroom. The upshot of all this was that he claimed that this was the point he realized he was an alien in a secular universe, and that it was time to pull his children out of public school and homeschool them. Why did I tell that story? Why did it stick with me? Because, to me, it highlights a feeling I've been having about something very profound that's happening to America. I don't know if it's a wonderful thing or a disaster (or both), but I have an irresistible gut feeling that it's happening. I'm talking about the emergence of a new national mitosis. North vs South, Red State vs Blue State, liberal vs conservative, religious vs secular. Whatever you want to call it, Americans - it seems - are separating themselves into two (or more) distinct and ideologically opposed groups. This is nothing new, of course, but what IS new (at least in my memory) is that there are fewer and fewer opportunities for common discourse. All sides are not only furious at each other, they are genuinely mystified by each other. That's why I found Rush's caller so interesting. I could hear something in his and Rush's voice that was far beyond anger and the usual partisan name-calling. It was pure cultural shock and confusion; like a martian landing in Times Square. So what does that all have to do with techies homeschooling their kids? It strikes me as significant that though there is no simple way to divide these two groups (and there is definitely overlap), both of them are beginning to eschew public education. If you are passionately pro "tech" or passionately pro "God", it seems there is little left that public schools (and mainstream society itself) can offer you and your children. These two groups have more alike than might first appear. Both groups feel that there is something so rotten at the core as to be nigh unfixable (whether loss of Biblical values on the one side or complete loss of intellectual curiosity on the other). I don't have any deep insights as to why we seem to be splitting into multiple Americas or what might happen next, but I can feel that it's happening. If you want to watch the proverbial canaries in the coal mine, watch who homeschools their kids.

n_to_the_flower 12y ago

Suppose your child were exceptionally gifted. The "IEP"-ish customized learning at one's own (accelerated) pace be homeschooling's major advantage: to unlimit progress without being hindered by an impersonal, one-sized-fits-all class. The critical part of homeschooling seems to be providing a mix of play and unstructured learning with other bright kids. How would that work with homeschooling in urban, suburban and rural areas? (I've seen some homeschooling in rural areas, where kids have neighbors to play and go on "field trips" with, but there isn't much choice in terms of other bright kids able to work on science and maker projects together.)

tomohawk 12y ago

Whether home schooled, private schooled, or public schooled, it's ultimately the parent's responsibility to educate their child. One danger of public schools is that parents can get a false sense of security about whether their child is being properly educated. It can be easy to get into autopilot mode and trust that there are good things going on at the school. As long as the child is passing classes, being promoted to the next grade on schedule, and gets a diploma everything should be good - no? Unfortunately, such indicators don't appear to mean much. I know several people who received extremely deficient educations, and yet passed all classes and got a diploma. In one case, the person received their diploma without knowing basic addition/subtraction or other arithmetic, and could barely read. They've since taken years of private tutoring (at their own expense, since the state owes them nothing once they grant the diploma). So, they could certainly learn, but apparently the school didn't teach. The parents in this case were not well educated themselves, and were trusting that the school was doing its job. It's easy to throw rocks at them for not paying more attention, but what the heck was the school doing? There's certainly no perfect system, but parents who are taking on the homeschooling responsibility deserve a lot of latitude and support.

tokenadult 12y ago
The evident downvotes on your comment were really unfair, as what you report squares with my experience (it is part of my motivation for homeschooling) and anyway is reported in all of the better research literature on school effectiveness in the United States. Yes, parents have to take responsibility for their children's educations, period, whether or not their children attend school.
aidenn0 12y ago
At least in the part of California I live, there is no danger of even marginally aware parents getting a false sense of security; it's blindingly obvious that the kids aren't getting properly educated. I knew the schools here weren't great, but I had no idea how bad they were until my oldest started 3 years ago. We at least have a lot of options, with my wife being a stay-at-home mom, and my salary being enough to afford modest private school tuition. My heart breaks for those who are just making ends meet with two earners (or only a single parent). They really have no options other than the public school system, which is a shame. [edit] It also somewhat astonished me that the schools are so poorly funded; it's a fairly affluent area with high property values, so I would have expected better funding. California natives blame it on Prop 13, and I would like to see the math on that; the per-student funding here today is about what it was when I was in elementary school on the East Coast in the 80s, which is less than half as much in real dollars.

A_COMPUTER 12y ago

I have some family friends who homeschooled their six kids. The first three got a thorough, good education and were well-socialized. The last three, not so much. Their mom was older and tired by then, and community support had diminished after the 80's. I will say this though, even though a couple turned out to be "problem children" anyway, they weren't uniquely bad compared to troubled kids in public school.

icantthinkofone 12y ago

fwiw, I homeschooled my two boys. One graduated summa cum laude from a well known university. The other graduated in the top 10% of another well known school. And I think I did a lousy job of it. If enough people show an interest, I'll go into it more tomorrow but, for now, I'm going to bed.

Rainymood 12y ago
Please do. I am very intrigued.
- walljm 12y ago
  I'll let zaphar tell his side of it (he's my brother), but the way I remember mom telling it, the school was disinterested in dealing with certain issues he was having in class. The problem was, zaphar knew everything he needed to know in 1st grade before he showed up the first day. He got excessively bored in class as a result and developed a daydreaming habit his teachers didn't want to take the time address. By the time he was in 2nd grade, he was learning nothing and fell behind. The teachers met with my mom as they usually do and told her that they were just going to pass him to the next class instead of keeping him back. Mom thought that was "unacceptable" and that was part of what prompted my parents to pull him out and homeschool us. It took her a couple years to break him of the habit (and a lot of one on one interaction). There are probably other things zaphar might know, but that's how I remember it. As a result, I never went to public schools at all (with the exception of drivers ed in highschool). Kindergarten was 30 mins a day for a summer. I would run up to mom and say "let have school!" and then when i got bored we would stop. For the record, I was socially awkward. I'm naturally shy and that didn't help. I eventually overcame that (though it does come out when i'm more fatigued) and would like to think I can hold my own socially. But I doubt public school would have been good for me. If it was anything like college was, I would have done far worse academically. I hate lectures, they make me sleepy and bored and I retain very little. I need to read and work the problems to understand them. Mostly, I marvel at the waste of time. I could typically do all my homework in ~4 hours (or less if i was being diligent) and be done with school by lunch. Sitting for nearly 8 hours a day (given my aggressively active nature as a child) would have been torture.

JacobAldridge 12y ago

I harbour a vision to live a location independent lifestyle, which almost of necessity would require some element of homeschooling (though I shared here yesterday why this part hasn't moved from vision to strategy yet [1]). That means keeping my eyes open for any similar experiences, and I've recently fallen in love with these guys [2] because they're the first "family nomads" I've come across who also talk about managing a mortgage back home etc (most people on a permanent holiday are singles in their 20s and 30s - I need assets, not cheap laundry tips). This article in particular looks at the challenges they've overcome, and extensive research they've found, in deciding positively to homeschool their children abroad - http://www.escapingexpectations.com/are-homeschooled-kids-destined-to-become-social-misfits-in-adulthood/ http://www.escapingexpectations.com/are-homeschooled-kids-de... [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8994656 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8994656 [2] http://www.escapingexpectations.com/ http://www.escapingexpectations.com/ [Edit] Let me also add, in case he's too modest to, Karl's excellent homeschool resource site Learn in Freedom - HN context and link https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5094480 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5094480

technomancy 12y ago

If you haven't read Seymour Papert's Mindstorms book (ostensibly about the creation of Logo, but actually more about math education facilitated by exploring concepts through programming), it's a real eye-opener. It's one of the main texts that got me excited about taking a hands-on role in my kids' education.

marknadal 12y ago

I was homeschooled and really enjoyed it. From my experience, the parents try to foster a passion for continued learning and self learning. With that perspective, a child grows up assuming their parent is biased and seeks out competing views. This skill of analysis and synthesis is incredibly critical. We can definitely sometimes be socially awkward (I can spot other homeschoolers a mile away) but I know a lot of friends who have become quite successful in their careers which does take quite a bit of social skills. My personal example is that I just raised money for my open source startup (http://github.com/amark/gun http://github.com/amark/gun) tackling the pains of databases. Most other homeschoolers I know went after the legal/political fields though. Feel free to ask me any questions. :)

fnordfnordfnord 12y ago

I've had a few home-schooled students in my college courses. The most memorable one was a fairly bright guy, excellent at math, and remarkably had never heard of the civil rights movement of the 1960's or anything at all having to do with race relations in the US. Between his lack of knowledge about racial tension, and other factors, he was definitely socially awkward; but everyone got through it unscathed. I don't think his parents were involved in tech. Overall, his HS education was probably not better or worse by a large degree than anyone else from one of the local high schools.

sbate1987 12y ago

My wife homeschooled my kids and they are weird, not necessarily in a good way. I find it harder to relate to them. Also my oldest complained that it really held her back in College. I would say its kind of more similar to the vaccination argument than it is not similar

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bko 12y ago

> The Cook family are not just homeschoolers but unschoolers. They don’t prefer homeschooling simply because they find most schools too test-obsessed or underfunded or otherwise ineffective. It's interesting that even those that are skeptical about the US educational system system seem to cast the problem in very traditional terms. I think a big problem with the educational system is about the inefficiency of the bundling of goods. A lot of value has been generated from un-bundling of goods in other sectors. People used to read newspapers for news, sports, classifieds, op-ed, etc. Today' many people get their news from one venue, sports from another, and so on. I don't often hear people suggesting that maybe the system should be less bundled so students/parents have a choice to take different classes from different providers. A lot of schools may have good math programs but weaker English programs but there is no reason that these classes have to be bundled together. At the very least we should un-bundle sports from education. Although sports are beneficial to many young people, having them tied to an educational institute seems ridiculous. In regards to what these parents are doing, I'm happy with any experimentation. Hopefully some parents will be able to pool their resources and serve groups of children. One parent can teach engineering to the neighbors kids, and another can teach literature.

mhall119 12y ago
> Hopefully some parents will be able to pool their resources and serve groups of children. One parent can teach engineering to the neighbors kids, and another can teach literature. This happens quite a bit actually
- ladytron 12y ago
  Marie Curie actually taught her kids this way for a few years. A small group of friends (mostly college professors) each picked a subject. Marie designed hands - on experiments to teach the group physics. She and Pierre Curie did not think much of France's school system at the time. In her biography their complaints about science education sound very contemporary. "The more things change, the more they stay the same".

epaga 12y ago

Sadly, home-schooling continues to be illegal in Germany, a law which was first instituted in the 1930s as the government wanted more control over education. The police will literally show up at your door and escort your kids to school if you attempt to home-school.

hga 12y ago
With this current infamous case as an example: https://www.google.com/search?q=german+homeschooling+family+deportation https://www.google.com/search?q=german+homeschooling+family+... Gleichschaltung is still a thing, even if it's relaxed and focused on a different ethos.
zaphar 12y ago
In elementary school in Texas I was home schooled and there were a number of times that Police/Truant Officers showed up to try to take us to school. The legality of Home Schooling was very much up in the air in the early days. No one ever succeeded in making it into the house since my Mom was very educated about her rights and the rights of her kids and was totally capable of standing up to anyone who came without a warrant. As a child of 6-10 years of age I thought it was incredibly exciting. Our family was rebelling against the Man!
- walljm 12y ago
  this was a fairly common experience to those of us who were homeschooling some 30+ years ago (wow, has it been that long?). i know lots of friends with similar experiences, having prepared statements to tell adults who wanted to know why we were out during normal school hours, having to wait until after 3pm to go outside to play just to avoid the scrutiny.

brogrammer90 12y ago

I think these bottom of the barrel techies have got it wrong. How many home schooled kids have been accepted as founders into YC? My guess is not very many. Most founders are elite college graduates that come K-12 schools where standardized testing is the norm.

ladytron 12y ago
What is a bottom of the barrel techie? The percentage of homeschoolers in the population is extremely low, so it is doubtful that you would see a large group of them anywhere, including YC. I assume a large portion of techie homeschooler's kids will go onto college, some elite ones too. Homeschoolers generally do very well on standardized tests like the SAT and ACT because their literacy is very high.

hkarthik 12y ago

I've seen a few friends recently start homeschooling as a way to opt out of the public school system without paying for private school. In every one of these situations, the wife stays at home to raise and teach the kids while the man works. In many ways it forces a continuation of traditional gender roles, which I personally don't agree with. So while I understand and agree with some of the decisions these folks are making, there is a clear gender divide that they are ignorant of, or unwilling to even talk about.