8 ms·

China tightens Web controls; commenters must register real names

54 points by dak1 12y ago

parennoob 12y ago
I fail to see how this is different from Facebook (and formerly Google+)'s real names policy which will flag unusual names and force you to give a valid Government ID to reactivate your account. Facebook (along with Twitter) is often the gateway to commenting on a lot of popular sites in the US. Very few people stop and make the alternate account required. References: 1. https://www.facebook.com/help/159096464162185 https://www.facebook.com/help/159096464162185 2. http://boingboing.net/2011/08/27/eric-schmidt-if-you-cant-use-your-real-name-dont-use-google.html http://boingboing.net/2011/08/27/eric-schmidt-if-you-cant-us...
- screwedup 12y ago
  One is a decision by a private company (which you can get around by using a different service) and one is a mandate from the government.
  - arca_vorago 12y ago
    Given both Googles and Facebooks origin funding, I think a debate could be had about this point.
    - trynumber9 12y ago
      Explain what you mean. Where did their funding come from? There is no US government law or rule to enforce real names (see Twitter, etc).
      - deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
    - freehunter 12y ago
      Even if they're funded by the government, the government doesn't stop you from posting anywhere else. If you don't like Facebook forcing you to use your real name, Hacker News will let you use a name like freehunter (most certainly not my real name).
  - dmfdmf 12y ago
    This is exactly what he fails to see.
- hyperpape 12y ago
  In case anyone hasn't previously encountered Poe's law, this post is a great example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law.
screwedup 12y ago
Before you start thinking "oh, those crazy Chinese...", remember that many people in the USA (and other western countries) fervently believe that we should do the same thing.
- hyperpape 12y ago
  I think one can think both that the Chinese government is exceptionally repressive and be scared how many people in the West might be willing to follow their lead. Thankfully, I don't think a real names policy has much chance in the US for the time being.
  - marvin 12y ago
    Most Norwegian newspapers enforce a full-name policy in their comments sections. Which is frankly ridiculous; anyone who seriously wants to troll just comes up with a fake name. But it's very worrying that this is taken seriously by people in our own society.
    - differentView 12y ago
      So they basically just has a full-name policy, but don't actually enforce it.
    - bad_user 12y ago
      Don't know the quality of Norwegian comments on newspapers, but if it's anything like what happens in my country, I can understand them asking for full names. In short, stupid and mean, really mean, YouTube-style. Of course, a full name policy doesn't help. Even when the comments section is powered by Facebook, with most users having real names and being sort of trackable, you still get the same stupid and mean comments, because let's face it, a majority of us on the web are stupid and mean. I'm really against nation wide policies, but on the other hand here we're talking about web properties. Personally I don't care when those shitty newspapers that I don't even read demanding full names. For one it's their right to do so. And also, as long as this isn't by law, it means that you always have alternatives and that's what competition is about. I mean, really, Reddit has 10 times more users than the population of your country and my country combined.
buro9 12y ago
Does this apply to Chinese commenters on overseas blogs and forums? If so, they've just solved a huge chunk of the comment spam problem.
- mentat 12y ago
  If the Chinese government wants to help unmask people?
arca_vorago 12y ago
What really bugs me is that this is the same direction a lot of policy makers and even tech companies seem to want to go, all the while decrying the Chinese for the same actions. I hope we don't allow it to progress that far in the US, but we really need to step up to the debate when people start droning on about cybersecurity, trolling, libel, and defamation on the Internet. Perhaps I'm just in the minority that thinks free speech should include the right to offend and we should not allow everyone to get offended at anything they want and get it banned. Youtube co-founder jawed's first youtube comment: "why the fuck do i need a google+ account to comment on a video?"
- sukilot 12y ago
  Note that Google has reversed course and apologized for Real Names policy
azurezyq 12y ago
I don't think it will affect much, most of the sites are using qq/weibo/renren openids, and they have long been "real named" behind. And actually I don't care how the gov track my activities, just care about the leaks of personal information, which were kept safe most of the times for big names.
happyscrappy 12y ago
It may be hard to persecute you if we cannot easily identify you.
pagnotta 12y ago
It is funny how american media is eager to depict China as a North-Korea, and how americans opinions end being formed by their partial media in the same way it happens under dictatorships. Have spent a decade in China, I have yet to see a cop carrying a gun. Cops in China are way more friendly than in US, and for me, way more trustable. people think they keep the chinese people under fear and draconian control, but if you spend some time in China and listen to the people, you see thats not the whole truth. American media call Mugabe a dictator and call Cameroon's President a "chief of state", but both countries hold the same kind of elections. Anyone saw the news about the recent death of the Arabian king? I didn't read any mention about him being a dictator, indeed he is, but he is an ally.
- dmix 12y ago
  In China the citizenry is constantly fed lines how 'China is not bad, don't listen to the foreign critics, just look at all the awful things the West does'. Pretty easy way to never look at yourself critically and fix problems. The west is bad sure, but why does that mean China can't be better? The self-maintained status quo by the citizens in China is incredibly strong. This is by design.
  - api 12y ago
    America is simply much more sophisticated in its methods of mass control. China deploys primitive ham-fisted stuff like web controls and their "great firewall," while America is much more skilled in the fine-grained use of soft power and propaganda to achieve the same effects. American oligarchs know better than to whack people indiscriminately with crude mallets or to show their hand too overtly. My guess would be that they learned this from the British elite, who are probably the undisputed global masters at weathering social and political storms through flexing and employing soft nuanced mechanisms to hold power. Britain still has a royal dynasty while most of the rest of Europe's royals lost their heads. America excels at creating the illusion of freedom and at permitting enough freedom at lower levels of society to sustain that illusion, but at the top American corporations and the American national security state are almost indistinguishable. Ex-vice-presidents serve on the boards of major VC firms, and Google is basically the state department. That's not that different from China. When American financial elites get in real trouble, unlimited public funds suddenly materialize to bail them out. The same thing of course would happen in China. In both nations if you are sufficiently connected, neither laws nor the ordinary rules of economics apply to you... unless you are so crude and reckless that you overtly tip your hand in which case an example is made of you to preserve the illusion. This also happens regularly in China's "corruption crackdowns." Americans value freedom of expression, and that's a good thing, but at the end of the day we have no real choice but to elect a Republican or a Democrat and our media is remarkably complacent and docile. I'd say the vast majority of our media are akin to BuzzFeed for government propaganda, and the rest are too chronically under-funded or intellectually out to lunch (e.g. conspiranoids) to make any difference. I highly doubt the condition of our media is an accident. The public is free to converse, but most of that talk is impotent. I'm really not familiar with any large-scale society that is not an oligarchy. That being said, some are pragmatically better places to live than others. I'd rather live in the USA or another Western "democracy" than in most other places. Soft nuanced mechanisms of control generally don't kill you or send you to camps.
JeremyMorgan 12y ago
This isn't the craziest idea in the world. Trolls can be distracting and a ton of garbage to discussions. This isn't one of those "evil Chinese laws" in my opinion. But I guess I'm posting this as someone using their legal name so there's that.
- freehunter 12y ago
  Someone trolling an Internet discussion board shouldn't result in a federal law removing all privacy from everyone. The trolls might stop, but what about government critics who are now being silenced because they will be killed if they reveal their real name? You might not have to worry about your government breaking down your door if you post something negative about your politicians. Some people in other countries do.
  - JeremyMorgan 12y ago
    While that's a good point I'm just playing devil's advocate here. It's probably among the least crazy things China has done. By the way thanks people who disagree with me for the downvotes. Cause that's what they're designed for.
malandrew 12y ago
I wonder if this regulation will also apply to government sock puppets.
yongjik 12y ago
South Korea tried that several years ago. The outcome was (well, apart from gross restriction of freedom of expression) that every small and large websites were legally required to ask for people's personal identifying information and store it somewhere. There were several popular incidents where millions of people's information were hacked, and who knows how many incidents were there that wasn't publicized. These days it's safe to assume that the name and Residential Registration Number of pretty much every South Korean is floating somewhere in China. (Well, at least the law is gone now...) Glad that China is following our lead.</sarcasm>

54 points by dak1 12y ago

I fail to see how this is different from Facebook (and formerly Google+)'s real names policy which will flag unusual names and force you to give a valid Government ID to reactivate your account. Facebook (along with Twitter) is often the gateway to commenting on a lot of popular sites in the US. Very few people stop and make the alternate account required. References: 1. https://www.facebook.com/help/159096464162185 https://www.facebook.com/help/159096464162185 2. http://boingboing.net/2011/08/27/eric-schmidt-if-you-cant-use-your-real-name-dont-use-google.html http://boingboing.net/2011/08/27/eric-schmidt-if-you-cant-us...

screwedup 12y ago
One is a decision by a private company (which you can get around by using a different service) and one is a mandate from the government.
- arca_vorago 12y ago
  Given both Googles and Facebooks origin funding, I think a debate could be had about this point.
  - trynumber9 12y ago
    Explain what you mean. Where did their funding come from? There is no US government law or rule to enforce real names (see Twitter, etc).
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
  - freehunter 12y ago
    Even if they're funded by the government, the government doesn't stop you from posting anywhere else. If you don't like Facebook forcing you to use your real name, Hacker News will let you use a name like freehunter (most certainly not my real name).
- dmfdmf 12y ago
  This is exactly what he fails to see.
hyperpape 12y ago
In case anyone hasn't previously encountered Poe's law, this post is a great example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law.

screwedup 12y ago

Before you start thinking "oh, those crazy Chinese...", remember that many people in the USA (and other western countries) fervently believe that we should do the same thing.

hyperpape 12y ago
I think one can think both that the Chinese government is exceptionally repressive and be scared how many people in the West might be willing to follow their lead. Thankfully, I don't think a real names policy has much chance in the US for the time being.
- marvin 12y ago
  Most Norwegian newspapers enforce a full-name policy in their comments sections. Which is frankly ridiculous; anyone who seriously wants to troll just comes up with a fake name. But it's very worrying that this is taken seriously by people in our own society.
  - differentView 12y ago
    So they basically just has a full-name policy, but don't actually enforce it.
  - bad_user 12y ago
    Don't know the quality of Norwegian comments on newspapers, but if it's anything like what happens in my country, I can understand them asking for full names. In short, stupid and mean, really mean, YouTube-style. Of course, a full name policy doesn't help. Even when the comments section is powered by Facebook, with most users having real names and being sort of trackable, you still get the same stupid and mean comments, because let's face it, a majority of us on the web are stupid and mean. I'm really against nation wide policies, but on the other hand here we're talking about web properties. Personally I don't care when those shitty newspapers that I don't even read demanding full names. For one it's their right to do so. And also, as long as this isn't by law, it means that you always have alternatives and that's what competition is about. I mean, really, Reddit has 10 times more users than the population of your country and my country combined.

buro9 12y ago

Does this apply to Chinese commenters on overseas blogs and forums? If so, they've just solved a huge chunk of the comment spam problem.

mentat 12y ago
If the Chinese government wants to help unmask people?

arca_vorago 12y ago

What really bugs me is that this is the same direction a lot of policy makers and even tech companies seem to want to go, all the while decrying the Chinese for the same actions. I hope we don't allow it to progress that far in the US, but we really need to step up to the debate when people start droning on about cybersecurity, trolling, libel, and defamation on the Internet. Perhaps I'm just in the minority that thinks free speech should include the right to offend and we should not allow everyone to get offended at anything they want and get it banned. Youtube co-founder jawed's first youtube comment: "why the fuck do i need a google+ account to comment on a video?"

sukilot 12y ago
Note that Google has reversed course and apologized for Real Names policy

azurezyq 12y ago

I don't think it will affect much, most of the sites are using qq/weibo/renren openids, and they have long been "real named" behind. And actually I don't care how the gov track my activities, just care about the leaks of personal information, which were kept safe most of the times for big names.

happyscrappy 12y ago

It may be hard to persecute you if we cannot easily identify you.

pagnotta 12y ago

It is funny how american media is eager to depict China as a North-Korea, and how americans opinions end being formed by their partial media in the same way it happens under dictatorships. Have spent a decade in China, I have yet to see a cop carrying a gun. Cops in China are way more friendly than in US, and for me, way more trustable. people think they keep the chinese people under fear and draconian control, but if you spend some time in China and listen to the people, you see thats not the whole truth. American media call Mugabe a dictator and call Cameroon's President a "chief of state", but both countries hold the same kind of elections. Anyone saw the news about the recent death of the Arabian king? I didn't read any mention about him being a dictator, indeed he is, but he is an ally.

dmix 12y ago
In China the citizenry is constantly fed lines how 'China is not bad, don't listen to the foreign critics, just look at all the awful things the West does'. Pretty easy way to never look at yourself critically and fix problems. The west is bad sure, but why does that mean China can't be better? The self-maintained status quo by the citizens in China is incredibly strong. This is by design.
- api 12y ago
  America is simply much more sophisticated in its methods of mass control. China deploys primitive ham-fisted stuff like web controls and their "great firewall," while America is much more skilled in the fine-grained use of soft power and propaganda to achieve the same effects. American oligarchs know better than to whack people indiscriminately with crude mallets or to show their hand too overtly. My guess would be that they learned this from the British elite, who are probably the undisputed global masters at weathering social and political storms through flexing and employing soft nuanced mechanisms to hold power. Britain still has a royal dynasty while most of the rest of Europe's royals lost their heads. America excels at creating the illusion of freedom and at permitting enough freedom at lower levels of society to sustain that illusion, but at the top American corporations and the American national security state are almost indistinguishable. Ex-vice-presidents serve on the boards of major VC firms, and Google is basically the state department. That's not that different from China. When American financial elites get in real trouble, unlimited public funds suddenly materialize to bail them out. The same thing of course would happen in China. In both nations if you are sufficiently connected, neither laws nor the ordinary rules of economics apply to you... unless you are so crude and reckless that you overtly tip your hand in which case an example is made of you to preserve the illusion. This also happens regularly in China's "corruption crackdowns." Americans value freedom of expression, and that's a good thing, but at the end of the day we have no real choice but to elect a Republican or a Democrat and our media is remarkably complacent and docile. I'd say the vast majority of our media are akin to BuzzFeed for government propaganda, and the rest are too chronically under-funded or intellectually out to lunch (e.g. conspiranoids) to make any difference. I highly doubt the condition of our media is an accident. The public is free to converse, but most of that talk is impotent. I'm really not familiar with any large-scale society that is not an oligarchy. That being said, some are pragmatically better places to live than others. I'd rather live in the USA or another Western "democracy" than in most other places. Soft nuanced mechanisms of control generally don't kill you or send you to camps.

JeremyMorgan 12y ago

This isn't the craziest idea in the world. Trolls can be distracting and a ton of garbage to discussions. This isn't one of those "evil Chinese laws" in my opinion. But I guess I'm posting this as someone using their legal name so there's that.

freehunter 12y ago
Someone trolling an Internet discussion board shouldn't result in a federal law removing all privacy from everyone. The trolls might stop, but what about government critics who are now being silenced because they will be killed if they reveal their real name? You might not have to worry about your government breaking down your door if you post something negative about your politicians. Some people in other countries do.
- JeremyMorgan 12y ago
  While that's a good point I'm just playing devil's advocate here. It's probably among the least crazy things China has done. By the way thanks people who disagree with me for the downvotes. Cause that's what they're designed for.

malandrew 12y ago

I wonder if this regulation will also apply to government sock puppets.

yongjik 12y ago

South Korea tried that several years ago. The outcome was (well, apart from gross restriction of freedom of expression) that every small and large websites were legally required to ask for people's personal identifying information and store it somewhere. There were several popular incidents where millions of people's information were hacked, and who knows how many incidents were there that wasn't publicized. These days it's safe to assume that the name and Residential Registration Number of pretty much every South Korean is floating somewhere in China. (Well, at least the law is gone now...) Glad that China is following our lead.</sarcasm>