21 ms·

Testosterone is the drug of the future

341 points by mparramon 12y ago

toadi 12y ago
Read about it 15 years ago in a Belgian magazine. A Belgian doctor was claiming the same. To be quite honest I use it already for 15 years and indeed it changes you. It helps me to be in "sana in corpore sano". Let's hope the negative health impacts on long term are not to bet so my body stays sano :)
- zumtar 12y ago
  Do you have children? I hear that TRT causes infertility so you need to abandon any hope of that while you are on it, is this the case?
  - collyw 12y ago
    Sign me up!
    - topbanana 12y ago
      My doctor said, when I asked for a vasectomy, "It's a common complaint!"
- paulojreis 12y ago
  Would you be kind enough to share your experience? I ask you this as a 29 yrs old who's mortified of aging and feels guilty as hell for having a "all-day-sitting" job.
  - stinos 12y ago
    mortified of aging Isn't that rather a psychological issue? After all, aging is still quite unavoidable. Would postponing the unavoidable end really make you less mortified? feels guilty Sort of the same remark as above. Moreover, it is (afaik) not proven taking any kind of drug will counter or reverse the damage done by sitting all day - so taking drugs anyway would just act as a placebo: it doesn't really help with the actual problem, but you wouldn't feel guilty because you would think it does help. Which is maybe worse than your current situation as you would be less tempted to find a more suitable solution. Which is hard to figure out without knowing your particular situation, but would typically include things such as less continuous sitting, more breaks, more moving around.
    - paulojreis 12y ago
      > Isn't that rather a psychological issue? After all, aging is still quite unavoidable. Would postponing the unavoidable end really make you less mortified? Well, it was merely a way of saying that I worry about aging. No one is questioning the "unavoidable end", really - I am just interested in the idea of aging without losing too much life "quality". > Sort of the same remark as above. Moreover, it is (afaik) not proven taking any kind of drug will counter or reverse the damage done by sitting all day - so taking drugs anyway would just act as a placebo: it doesn't really help with the actual problem, but you wouldn't feel guilty because you would think it does help. Which is maybe worse than your current situation as you would be less tempted to find a more suitable solution. Which is hard to figure out without knowing your particular situation, but would typically include things such as less continuous sitting, more breaks, more moving around. As above, please, don't take this as a "personal drama". I'm not really looking for any miracle drug. I get up hourly to stretch and drink water. I workout 4 times a week and do my best to keep nutrition in order. As I said above, I'm just curious; the user "toadi" has an experience which seems interesting, which is (only) what I asked for. Just a quick remark, this is not strictly true: "would just act as a placebo: it doesn't really help with the actual problem". A placebo can really help with "actual" problems.
    - brianwski 12y ago
      > aging is still quite unavoidable. Would postponing > the unavoidable end really make you less mortified? Yes, I want to postpone the unavoidable. Death is unavoidable, I'm trying to postpone it. I will probably be in a wheel chair like my father eventually, yes I want to postpone that as long as possible so I can walk around in nature and enjoy it. If my hearing starts to fail, I will get hearing aids to try to postpone deafness as long as possible. (My elderly mother wears hearing aids.) I don't care if deafness is inevitable, I will fight for every extra day of hearing birds chirping and the hearing the ocean waves. What am I missing? Isn't everybody just like me? SOME parts of aging are Ok, but most of them are super bad - when your bones get thin due to Osteoporosis if you fall you might break a bone, which in turn might end your life. Nobody wants to get Osteoporosis sooner, we are all trying to postpone it as long as possible, right?
      - 12y ago
  - dash2 12y ago
    When I was 29, I felt just the same. Then I hit 30... and realised it doesn't matter. Relax. Worrying about being too old at 29 is absurd. When you are 39, I promise you, you will think back and laugh yourself silly. The all day sitting job might be a real problem, though.
  - ansible 12y ago
    Changing to sitting on an exercise ball or going to a standing desk is a less severe thing to try to increase your overall activity level. Cheap too.
  - epaladin 12y ago
    Same age... this thread is really making me feel old. Generally I still feel like I'm just getting out here and just getting started still in terms of career, life, etc. I really hope it's not all downhill from 30! Related to the main subject, I don't think my levels have ever been low, but I've always been surprised at how quickly I lose muscle mass when I'm not working out. That might be more related to protein intake and other genetic factors though, since I've always been pretty lean.
    - saiya-jin 12y ago
      Nah, you can start gym/intense excercise anytime, I started about... 31? Major imporovement in about everything, including sex (you don't get tired so easily for example). There is no "too late" age. As for losing muscles - our bodies run in "least necessary amount needed" mode, since muscles are nutritient-hungry to sustain if not needed. You need to constantly push them to even sustain your level of strength/endurance. If I stop all my activities for 2 weeks, you feel horribly weak when coming back. Marathon runner could write books about it :)
  - loucal 12y ago
    I don't think more testosterone will help if you are sitting all day. You'd have to make up for all that sitting time with gym time otherwise even low dose testosterone will do nothing but help you gain hair and fat (well and some muscle even if you are sitting but it will probably be negligible). When I first got on testosterone I realized why most males always envied my ability to eat whatever I want without putting on body fat. That changed immediately, within a week I had to watch what I ate bc I noticed some fat building on my lower abdomen.
deleted 12y ago
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yummyfajitas 12y ago
Can anyone link to a gwern-style review of it? Unfortunately a google search for the same just yields a bunch of T-Nation style spam aimed at wannabe bodybuilders.
- aydinhan 12y ago
  Gwern wrote a section about Testosterone in Nootropics article: http://www.gwern.net/Nootropics#testosterone http://www.gwern.net/Nootropics#testosterone
  - yummyfajitas 12y ago
    I like the experiment it proposes, although I wish someone else tried it first.
basicallydan 12y ago
I totally get the argument for using testosterone for sex changes. But as a man who takes his health and fitness into his own hands, I can't help but wonder if something like testosterone would become slightly addictive. Is it something one can use to get out of a slump and then stop taking, or is it more that when one gets to a certain age, it becomes necessary for staying at desired fitness levels?
- gadders 12y ago
  I've never tried it, but listening to strength training/powerlifting podcasts they do say that after coming off it can be psychologically addictive as your lifts and physical capabilities drop.
- mrlase 12y ago
  If you're already at normal testosterone levels and decide to take a supraphysiological dose (500 mg/wk of enanthate), you will have to go through post cycle therapy (PCT) when you're finished. PCT restarts your natural testestorone production. You'd take something like Nolvadex for four weeks with a tapering dosage.
daemonfire300 12y ago
I just looked up side-effects of testosterone, again to be sure. Why is this article on the top of HN. It's basically promoting use of a drug with well known side effects which can cause serious damage to your health.
freshfey 12y ago
As someone who went from 430 ng/dl to 1024 ng/dl naturally in about two years time (from age 23 to 25) the only thing I can say is don't jump to too many conclusions here. - Your testosterone should be naturally high if you're below 30 (and male) - If not, something is wrong and you need to fix it (start with blood work, check your diet, move) - If you testosterone is in the normal ranges (blood work recommends between 600 and 1200, which is ridiculous), you'll feel good 80-90% of the time - the 10-20% are probably psychological worries that you might have, start meditating - I didn't get huge muscles or less body fat with more testosterone (huge myth that I thought would change for me) - TRT is used heavily in pro-sports (look for UFC fighters and bodybuilders, they have the most experience, since a lot of them are doing it) - TRT is a problem if you keep going for too long, because your body just doesn't produce testosterone as it used to, because it expects it from the outside, so below 35 or rather below 40 year olds: don't sign up for this too quickly. - Cold showers/baths do work, but probably not for increasing your testosterone, still, do it from time to time :) - Intermittent Fasting helps immensely with boosting your testosterone naturally. I can provide more info or details/specifics if wanted/needed.
- return0 12y ago
  You 're quite young. i wonder if it is possible to change so fast when you're older.
  - freshfey 12y ago
    take a look at the book "4 Hour Body" by Tim Ferriss, there in the chapter Improving Sex, sub-chapter: "Sex Machine I: Adventures in Tripling Testosterone" I think in there the author, Tim Ferriss aged 34(?), mentions how he went from 2xx to 6xx in a very short amount of time, mainly by changing his nutrition.
    - jkscm 12y ago
      Or it could be a coincidence since the number of test subjects was 1. I like how the examine.com article sums it up: > Although 'natural' (non-supplemental) methods of increasing testosterone are pretty weak and unlikely to build muscle mass, they tend to be related to pro-sexual effects (particularly libido) and exerting dominance http://examine.com/faq/how-can-i-increase-testosterone-naturally.html http://examine.com/faq/how-can-i-increase-testosterone-natur...
tormeh 12y ago
It would be nice to have broader shoulders, but an increased sex drive sounds inconvenient. Life is just more dignified without so much neediness. I don't get why anyone (without a more sex-hungry partner, ie most men) would want that. Is it just a gender stereotype / bro thing?
- stinos 12y ago
  Pretty sure quite a lot of people out there would rather take more frequent, good sex over something rather superficial as broader shoulders. Sex can be extremely pleasant especially if all parties feel like it and are longing for each other. Getting older the opportunities for such sex can become less frequent though, and an increased sex drive could help to counter that. Not sure taking drugs is the best way to achieve that though..
- collyw 12y ago
  I would have assumed wanting broad shoulder would be so you look more attractive to the opposite sex (or the same sex, if that's what you prefer). The reason being you are more likely to get more sex...
  - tormeh 12y ago
    Well, yes, but the timing is important. I wouldn't want a higher sex drive unless sex comes easily, which it doesn't.
- drcomputer 12y ago
  I am guessing because some hormonal changes in mid/elder life will kick in some kind of emotional down that is mostly fillable by children, rather than peer validation and stuff. That's what I am terrified of. Celibacy allows me to have room to do everything I want to do in life. I'm just terrified I will wake up one day (again) with a hormonal landslide affecting every thought, direction, and attitude I have. Cats like me though, so there's always that.
return0 12y ago
I wonder if it is possible to compare today's T levels with men of 100 years ago or even more. It could be that the industrialization and urbanization has caused a massive change in T levels because of natural reasons (less sun, less exercise, less anxiety, processed foods, tight clothing, what have you)
- MegaLeon 12y ago
  That's a good point. I remember reading that our generation's T levels are significantly lower than our granpa's.
- beaumartinez 12y ago
  Alcohol, plastics (which leech from containers into the liquid they contain), pesticides (on fruits, vegetables)—there are a host of environmental factors that reduce our testosterone levels. And as for anxiety, I think our modern urban lifestyle far increases our anxiety levels compared to our ancestors. The human body was not meant for the world we live in!
  - epaladin 12y ago
    I've wondered about the effect that environmental factors might have on Japan's current predicament- something in the water? did processing of soy products change at some point such that levels of the estrogen analogs ended up being higher? I guess I haven't been quite curious enough to see if there have been any rigorous studies that have compared T levels there over the last few decades.
- rotten 12y ago
  I suspect women never really talked about menopause until recent decades, yet they have been experiencing it throughout the existence of our species. (Although there is that traditional "Maiden, Mother, Crone" thing. Hmm.) Anyway, only recently have men started talking about andropause. The main reason it is still a controversial subject is because men's reproduction systems don't completely shut down, and because the process can sometimes be much slower. However we still go through many of the same hormonal changes and it is rather unnerving. I think we have only the barest minimum of understanding of the chemical processes that control and regulate our bodies. Jumping on the production a single chemical as the root of all issues is a little ridiculous sounding to me. Especially in light of all of the recent discoveries about our microbiome. (gut bacteria) It is an insanely complex interplay. Over the next few decades I'm sure our understanding will increase exponentially. It would indeed be very interesting to compare the spectrum and balance of hormones and microbiome structures from 100 years ago to those typical in the contemporary human. It could be different because of lifestyle and environment, or it could be self regulating, and nearly the same (the perceived differences being cultural).
alecco 12y ago
This is quack science. I wouldn't exchange temporary muscular gains for getting bald and other nasty long term side effects.
- WhitneyLand 12y ago
  What is quack about it? Lots of people are noting anecdotally that is has huge benefits. Are there strong studies disproving this? As to the negative effects, what is the largest/longest term/most reputable citation you have for us?
  - corin_ 12y ago
    What's quack about it is testosterone users calling themselves "doctors" to sell testosterone to other people. I haven't looked into research on either side so couldn't tell you whether I think it's a good or stupid thing to do, other than that if I did consider it I certainly wouldn't be considering the anecdotes of these people useful data.
- bonn1 12y ago
  Would you mind to elaborate about the side effects? The article sounds too good to be true.
  - mrlase 12y ago
    The side effects of exogenous testosterone are far over blown, especially at a TRT level dosage (about 200 mg/week depending on the ester used). Many of the side effects can be managed by using medication such as Arimidex.
- anjc 12y ago
  Sure all muscle gains are temporary. And TRT is typically used by people who would be at an age where baldness is common anyway.
- cylinder 12y ago
  It sounds like you are the one spouting quack science.
whizzrd 12y ago
Read the leaflets for this product: side effects may differ depending on the region of application ;) AU: http://www.besins-healthcare.com/pdf/testogel%20patient%20information%20leaflet%20%28Australia%29.pdf http://www.besins-healthcare.com/pdf/testogel%20patient%20in... US: http://www.besins-healthcare.com/pdf/androgel_PI.pdf http://www.besins-healthcare.com/pdf/androgel_PI.pdf
- WhitneyLand 12y ago
  This is utterly useless. Many safe drugs have long, scary side effect descriptions. Conversely, many drugs that have proved harmful over the long term have done so in ways that weren't described on a side effect disclosure.
  - whizzrd 12y ago
    You may find it useless until you experience serious side effects (>1% - <10%): headache, dizzyness, paraesthesia, amnesia, hyperaesthesia, mood disorders, hypertension and gynaecomastia Wondering if someone using this product can confirm these symptoms.
- slantyyz 12y ago
  I'm on TRT for life (see my other posts on this article for why), and I have used Androgel packets daily for 7 years. The side effect that I have experience with is hair growth on some of the body areas (that were hairless before I started using it) that I apply it. Keep in mind that I may be encountering fewer side effects because my body is not producing any significant testosterone itself. If you're using it as a supplement, you could experience more side effects.
adrianoconnor 12y ago
Presumably if you go this route you can't enter any organised sporting events or do any form of competitive racing? Just saying, because as you get older, if you start getting some fitness back you'll possibly want to start challenging yourself this way -- look how many vets enter triathlons and marathons, ride gran fondos etc. I'd see supplements like this as a last resort, for when a changed diet/exercise regime etc. haven't worked.
davak 12y ago
MD here. Just remember that women live longer than men. Although it'll never be proven that hormones are part of that provess, I think it's a good assumption. Many males as they get older become more lovable and more pleasent to be around because of natural hormone declines. There are a ton of health issues such as balding, coronary artery disease, prostate cancer, obstructive sleep apnea that are related to testosterone. Whether these clinics can find the correct cocktail to find a healthy balance isn't clear. I'm neither pro nor con. I've seen people who have been positively and negatively impacted by steroid supplementation.
- blfr 12y ago
  There are a ton of health issues such as balding, ..., obstructive sleep apnea I thought balding is primarily genetic (men respond differently to some metabolite of testosterone) and obstructive sleep apnea only a serious issue for overweight people. Could you, or someone else, elaborate, maybe link a longer explanation?
  - o_____________o 12y ago
    Your predisposition is genetic, but like many things, it's not an on/off switch, and will land you in a gradient. Beyond that, there are lots of variables like how much of your T is albumin/SHBG bound, glucocorticoids, 5a-r, etc. Our endocrine and inflammatory responses are crazy complex. That said, it's easily the leading causal agent, and most people will experience some form of hair loss in their life. Women experience loss at levels that might surprise you. Tellingly, the first defense for women is usually an antiandrogenic (anti-T) called Spironolactone.
- return0 12y ago
  Indeed there is evidence for it. For some people though, i guess longevity is not the best indicator of the good life. http://www.bbc.com/news/health-19699266 http://www.bbc.com/news/health-19699266
- mironathetin 12y ago
  I am happy that an expert without a bias reports about this. What you noted down came back into my mind immediately. These were the reported risks for professional athletes (back in the days when I decided to study physics instead of taking more of this junk and go pro). There are also natural ways to keep your own T level high, like healthy food, enough sleep, everything that increases your muscle mass (weightlifting), not too much stress, staying lean, and of course the most enjoyable thing you can do with your partner ;o). All this desn't cost a 1000$ a month, its free and its good for you too. No enhanced risk for cancer, no bad wakeup after 20 years of taking it.
jriley 12y ago
I found DHEA in the natural aisle of local grocery store under $10. I take a low dose daily (in my early 30s). Worth researching. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dehydroepiandrosterone http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dehydroepiandrosterone
- chrisbennet 12y ago
  Given the recent revelation by the New York attorney general's office [1], what confidence do you have that you are actually getting what is on the label? (I didn't down vote you.) [1] http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/02/03/new-york-attorney-general-targets-supplements-at-major-retailers/?_r=0 http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/02/03/new-york-attorney-g...
  - jriley 12y ago
    Fairly confident, although I do believe there is snake oil on the same aisle. I've used brands Natrol and Nature's Bounty. I understand DHEA as a steroid hormone that is a precursor to testosterone. I consider the drug's banned status in athletic competition as a signal it might be effective. From Wiki: "DHEA is legal to sell in the United States as a dietary supplement. It is currently grandfathered in as an "Old Dietary Ingredient" being on sale prior to 1994. DHEA is specifically exempted from the Anabolic Steroid Control Act of 1990 and 2004 It is banned from use in athletic competition."
    - chrisbennet 12y ago
      While DHEA may indeed be effective, if 80% of the natural supplements that were tested did not contain what the label said, one might conclude that there is an 80% chance that a bottle labeled "DHEA" really doesn't contain DHEA.
      - camouso 12y ago
        80% of /store brand herbal/ supplements. This is an important distinction. Brand names were fine.
svantana 12y ago
Is it just me, or did this article completely assume that it's reader is male?
- floatboth 12y ago
  It definitely assumes the reader wants to be (more) masculine...
hellodevnull 12y ago
>I was just at the gym watching the 30-year-olds at the pull-up bar building muscles in three weeks. And I’m at the pull up bar and nothing’s happening While many of you are thinking that he's making excuses (he might be) or that the other guys worked long and hard to build muscle, I can relate: I've been lifting weights three times a week for the last four years. I still look average, and yes I'm eating and exercising properly. I believe it might be something to do with testosterone. I was always skinny, high body fat and frail. I worked super hard to even start exercising, eventually I was able to get into routine but still now I feel like I should look much better after all this time. What's the deal with testosterone in UK? I'm 27, is it likely that I can get it? Are there home test kits I can get (reliable ones)? Do testosterone boosters actually work (I can't verify without testing)?
- chillax 12y ago
  Have you gained or lost any weight?
  - hellodevnull 12y ago
    I bulked and cut as many recommend. During the bulk phase I put on about 10kg, after which I lowered my calorie intake to try to reduce my body fat and look better (I was skinny-fat). I worked out with some friends, similar age, and they were able to build muscle and increase their lifts at a much higher rate than I could.
- deleted 12y ago
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- randlet 12y ago
  Are you sure you're eating enough? Have your lifts been going up? Before searching out testosterone I would try a beginners lifting program (meaning linear programming, where your lifts go up every workout) and eating a lot (3000-4000kCal a day). Starting Strength (my recommendation), Stronglifts and Ice Cream Fitness (ICF) are 3 popular ones.
  - 12y ago
stevepotter 12y ago
I went through a major testosterone-related health scare when I was 31 (4 years ago). I was in the midst of launching a startup. Stressed out, financially strained, hardly sleeping, hardly exercising, drinking too much. I thought I was eating right but turns out I wasn't. I began feeling like an empty shell of my former self. And yes, it totally affected my sex drive. Went to doc and had blood work done. My test levels were about 200, which would be acceptable had I been 70 years old. I was terrified. After ruling things out, the doc prescribed me Androgel, a gel-based test delivery system. You rub it on your shoulders and it absorbs in. But you have to be careful to not let it get on other people. I had a baby girl on the way and sat there thinking that I never want to worry about touching my wife or daughter. Plus this wasn't a temporary treatment. You are a slave to it, and pay about $10/day for it. Oh, and it turns out people, especially younger men, have a higher chance of stroke on that stuff. That's no life, so I decided to try and cure it naturally. And I did. My testosterone is normal now (forget the exact number). And I feel great. It was simple. First, I started strength training. Weights, especially compound moves like squats, will build test levels. And helps with sleep. Check out stronglifts.com if you want a good starting point. Second I fixed my diet. Check out the book The Perfect Health Diet. I learned I was not eating enough good fat. I started using more olive oil, coconut, ghee (butter), and quality rumen meat. It made a huge difference. Finally I cut out the stress. The startup ended up not succeeding but that had nothing to do with me deciding to ease up. I'm happy I did and learned a valuable lesson that health comes first. So there's my story. If you are going to supplement, be prepared for a long bumpy ride. And remember you can boost it naturally.
- throaway2357238 12y ago
  Second this. I was prescribed androgel and used it briefly. Another doctor explained the various issues associated with it and and I got off of it immediately. Now I'm working out and eating healthy, and my levels are naturally ~2x higher than they were.
- johnward 12y ago
  Studies have shown that creams are pretty terrible. Especially if you happen to have thyroid problems. They seem to work at first and then fade out for a lot of people. Shots just simply work and are cheaper.
johnward 12y ago
I'm 28 now and I have hypogonadisn and have experience using T and other options like clomid. My total T was <120nd/dl. The lab range for this is usually 300-1000ng/dl. I was severely depressed. Moody and very angry. I experience "roid rage" in the opposite of what most people think. When my T is low I am a completely different, awful person. I literally thought I was going to kill myself. I finally went to the doc. Got the blood work and was put ona low dosage of Testosterone. Enough to get me to the 500ng/dl range. My quality of life improved dramatically and I was the happy and productive person I used to be. I felt like I did in my early 20s instead of like I was approaching 50. Now I have to take clomiphene because the T kills my fertility. Clomid gets my hormones to the 500ng/dl range but I do not feel the same. My brain is "foggy". I'm not as sharp as I was. I'm up and down with my mood. On a higher dosage of clomid I even had experience where my brain just didn't make sane decisions. I rammed a car one time in traffic. I ran over my mailbox backing out of my garage, even though I did this thousands of times before. Testosterone can be a miracle for some people. It saddens me that it get such a bad rep for being used/abused by athletes.
- eyeJam 12y ago
  If anyone's ever watched the documentary "Bigger, Stronger, Faster*" they raise some interesting points questioning why steroids are demonized. Professional musicians take beta-blockers, athletes get laser eye surgery and take cortisone and opiate shots before/during competition, programmers take Adderall and Modafinil, male porn stars shot their penises full of drugs to stay erect for hours on end, etc. etc. Plenty of examples of professionals "cheating" without widespread media outcry and pearl-clutching about the sanctity of the profession. Furthermore, taking steroids won't improve your muscle-memory, proprioception, agility, sports IQ, etc... In my opinion they should be allowed in sports in some limited cases, such as recovering from an injury, where it would be administered in a controlled environment by a licensed doctor to accelerate recovery. They're a very useful drug if used properly.
  - seestheday 12y ago
    Unfortunately the problem is that they work too well. Every time they are legalized in a limited capacity they are abused in professional sports. The effect is massively amplified if you give women drugs because they don't have testosterone levels like men do. Those records that were set in the 70's pre-testing will likely never be broken. The issue is that if it is legal, there is a huge incentive to take it to an abusive point especially in a celebrity economy like what exists is professional sports. In some sports, professional athletes are almost constantly injured. Off the top of my head I can give you MMA (UFC) and american football as examples but I'm sure there are many others. Healthy sports end where competitive sport begins.[1] Right now we have an arms race that barely keeps it at bay. It's not an ideal solution but I think its better than athletes fully abusing their bodies with massive amounts of drugs like they did back in the East German Olympic days. For non-professional athletes, I agree with you. It should not be demonized to the extent it is. 1. Quote from Brecht, referenced many times, e.g here http://gladwell.com/drugstore-athlete/ http://gladwell.com/drugstore-athlete/
ninguem2 12y ago
Be very careful. Usually low T has no discernible cause but sometimes it is caused by a (treatable but potentially very serious) cancer of the pituitary called a prolactinoma. Testosterone treatment can mask the symptoms until is too late. See an endocrinologist before embarking on these "over the counter" treatments.
- johnward 12y ago
  Yep see and endo and urologist. I had a mri of the brain to rule this out.
deleted 12y ago
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codingdave 12y ago
Maybe I am overly cynical, but... There are a lot of reasons that people may be tired and not in optimal health as they age, testosterone being just one. So when testosterone comes around, and is being pimped by high-cost cash-only doctors, it looks to me as much of a way for a doctor who hates the current medical industry to escape it, and build a high income private practice, as much as a truly holistic approach to improving their patient's lives. I just have some inherent distrust of people who get rich quick when I blindly accept whatever they are selling.
6stringmerc 12y ago
Big fan of supplementation...growing up as a couch potato that medical professionals said should never, ever lift weights due to a physical handicap, I had a lot of body image issues. The fact I really enjoyed comic books didn't help my perception either. Just take a look for yourself and the way the Super Hero bodytype looks like. Straight up juiced[1]. Then, I started natural using a book from the library. Weightlifting actually helped manage a lot of my physical handicap - by being stronger, I was reducing the wear and tear on my body. Well, because I still wanted to break through to another level, I started researching supplements. Using the mind to grow the body. Protein, Glutamine, BCAAs, Tribulus, ZMA - all of them are natural ways to increase physical strength and also grow into a lean, muscular person. They were good, and eventually I found my way to some PH products. If 19-Norandro was good enough for Mark McGwire (it wasn't he was on the real stuff, that was just a cover story), then I was game to try it! Worked great, enjoyed it but also knew that doing so over a long period of time would have side effects. Eventually 19-Norandro got banned. There are chemists doing great work in the field (I've got my eye on one vendor in particular), and they'll always be 1 step ahead of the law, IMO. I did a couple more different products but never stacked to the point where I'd need PCT. Honestly, I think budget and liver damage fears were my driving motives. Just look at Arnold - he had to have heart surgery, and I'd bet a lot of money it's related to the muscle being exposed to years of heavy steroid doses[2]. These days I avoid PH or the juice outright. As I age, I might get back into the scene, but it's a crap shoot. There are far, far too many placebo type products out there, and the really good stuff has side effects that must be planned for, otherwise the whole quality of life part goes down, and where's the fun in that? Overall, I'd say TRT/PH/Juice are definitely not for everybody, but they're not inherently evil. Sort of like alcohol. Not everybody can knock back a dozen beers during a weekend marathon session at home and still be productive / nice / etc, but it's possible depending on the individual. [1] Freshman year of University the next door neighbor was a Pre-Med, about 5'2" and 205 lbs. We became pals and he let me in on the steroid secrets (cycling, GHB for sleep, etc). We did have a good laugh talking about how comic book characters reflected different steroids: Want to be Captain America? Deca. Wolverine? Winstrol. Sabretooth? Deca + Winstrol! It was a joke in a lot of ways, but kind of not... [2] Arnold is coming! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sHvWYAzIRo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sHvWYAzIRo
- 12y ago
dr_ 12y ago
Assuming there are a significant number of men on here who hope to some day have a family, it's inportant to note that a significant side effect of exogenous testosterone administration is male infertility. Simplified, the excess testosterone in the blood stream sends signals that shut down the hormones essential for sperm production. This may not matter if you are mid life or older and already have children, or if you don't plan on having any, but otherwise do NOT take exogenous testosterone.
- cylinder 12y ago
  HCG, Clomid can be taken to counter that.
  - dr_ 12y ago
    And anastrazole. However you would have to stop taking exogenous testosterone and take these meds and it still potentially may not work and you could require surgery for extraction. They would raise testosterone levels, but you would not see the same "physical benefits" as a testosterone gel would provide.
bikamonki 12y ago
http://www.drugwatch.com/testosterone/side-effects/ http://www.drugwatch.com/testosterone/side-effects/
nether 12y ago
You can get (expensive) testosterone (DHT) cream from dhtcream.com. No prescription, legal everywhere.
lafar6502 12y ago
I wonder what will be the effects of all these tons of testosterone goingh through humans into water, soil and all other organisms.
Xcelerate 12y ago
I have a hard time believing this. My testosterone level is 1,114 ng/dL naturally and I sure don't feel pumped full of energy and ready to go all the time (I'm 24). And I was even a D1 athlete. All it means for me is a greater risk of prostate cancer (which both my grandfathers had). My doctor was concerned about it being that high. Also, I think the rumors about men with high testosterone being aggressive or having a "player/alpha" mentality have been disproven; I don't remember which journal that study was in. I'm about the least aggressive person I know. If anything, I'm too passive and have a difficult time expressing what I want.
jesstify 12y ago
Transwoman here, and I have some personal experience in this regard. I've been on T blockers for about 2 years, and I have seen significant mood, hair, and skin improvements, not to mention a lower resting heart rate. My chances of getting prostate cancer have been reduced to basically nil, which is pretty great. A significant portion of the benefits are from the estrogen, but just reducing bioavailable T does make a big difference in skin, mood, and hair. On the flipside, a close friend who is a transman (meaning he is on T), and when he went on it, he became very aggressive and prone to angry outburts, developed significant acne, and a very significant increase in body hair. So... ya know, just be careful so you don't end up having crazy moodswings and back-ne
- loucal 12y ago
  I'm sure whoever is prescribing you estrogen has told you that synthetic estrogen is incredibly hard on the liver. The reduced risk of you getting prostate cancer is as far as I understand it FAR outweighed by the likelihood that at some point you will have liver issues to deal with. Also, I am on TRT and this is somewhat anecdotal (although many 'bodybuilder' types that use testosterone support this) I have noticed the effects on skin mood and hair are stongly related to estrogen, prolactin, and progesterone levels (meaning they should be in the normal range for male or female depending on what your goal is wrt testosterone). I also agree with the commenter somewhere on here that mentioned he feels the 'roid-rage' when he is low. Also anecdotal but generally agreed upon by the community is that the mood swings come from actual 'swings' of testosterone (and bad moods are when you are low, they should call it roid-affection instead). FDA approved esthers in the US (for injection) do not allow precise daily control to mimic the natural cycle, so there can be some very minor mood changes throughout the week (my dr is open minded and lets me pin the cypionate twice weekly) but I would honestly suggest that your friend had some placebo effect goin on there. As for his 'back-ne', I would check my prolactin levels if I had bad acne on my back (sometimes I do get it, and the levels are always slightly elevated... what to do about it is another story). Anyway, all due respect of course and I have much admiration of anyone who goes through such great lengths to 'be themselves' but please do make sure you are educated on the risks and minimizing them (I remember hearing it mentioned that the patches of estrogen are much easier on the liver than injections but that was from a tv show I think so take it with a grain of salt) I do believe that you are correct in saying >A significant portion of the benefits are from the estrogen, I just don't think you realize how much. As someone who lost a fair portion of my natural production almost instantly I can say with confidence that even if one were considering to transition to the fairer sex, losing your test without boosting the estrogen has pretty much NO positives except perhaps the reduced prostate cancer risk.
DonCarlitos 12y ago
Don't forget that Testosterone "feeds" prostate cancer, and that most men will have one variety of prostate cancer or another by age 75. It's often slow growing, but if one feeds it, a different story. So potential "T" users should think twice about messing with this particular hormone.
ajarmst 12y ago
This article seems pretty imbalanced. Modifying your natural endocrine levels (and the decline of testosterone with age in men is natural) can have significant unanticipated long-term effects (witness the problem with estrogen replacement therapy in women). A quick Google Scholar search pops up paper with titles like "Serum testosterone is associated with aggressive prostate cancer in older men", "Increased heart attacks in men using testosterone: the UK importantly lags far behind the US in prescribing testosterone", "High Estrogen in Men After Injectable Testosterone Therapy" and "A review on the relationship between testosterone and life-course persistent antisocial behavior". There is clearly medical literature that contradicts the rosy view indicated by the article's sources. I would have liked to see the article discuss those issues and the associated studies.
anigbrowl 12y ago
http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html

341 points by mparramon 12y ago

toadi 12y ago

Read about it 15 years ago in a Belgian magazine. A Belgian doctor was claiming the same. To be quite honest I use it already for 15 years and indeed it changes you. It helps me to be in "sana in corpore sano". Let's hope the negative health impacts on long term are not to bet so my body stays sano :)

zumtar 12y ago
Do you have children? I hear that TRT causes infertility so you need to abandon any hope of that while you are on it, is this the case?
- collyw 12y ago
  Sign me up!
  - topbanana 12y ago
    My doctor said, when I asked for a vasectomy, "It's a common complaint!"
paulojreis 12y ago
Would you be kind enough to share your experience? I ask you this as a 29 yrs old who's mortified of aging and feels guilty as hell for having a "all-day-sitting" job.
- stinos 12y ago
  mortified of aging Isn't that rather a psychological issue? After all, aging is still quite unavoidable. Would postponing the unavoidable end really make you less mortified? feels guilty Sort of the same remark as above. Moreover, it is (afaik) not proven taking any kind of drug will counter or reverse the damage done by sitting all day - so taking drugs anyway would just act as a placebo: it doesn't really help with the actual problem, but you wouldn't feel guilty because you would think it does help. Which is maybe worse than your current situation as you would be less tempted to find a more suitable solution. Which is hard to figure out without knowing your particular situation, but would typically include things such as less continuous sitting, more breaks, more moving around.
  - paulojreis 12y ago
    > Isn't that rather a psychological issue? After all, aging is still quite unavoidable. Would postponing the unavoidable end really make you less mortified? Well, it was merely a way of saying that I worry about aging. No one is questioning the "unavoidable end", really - I am just interested in the idea of aging without losing too much life "quality". > Sort of the same remark as above. Moreover, it is (afaik) not proven taking any kind of drug will counter or reverse the damage done by sitting all day - so taking drugs anyway would just act as a placebo: it doesn't really help with the actual problem, but you wouldn't feel guilty because you would think it does help. Which is maybe worse than your current situation as you would be less tempted to find a more suitable solution. Which is hard to figure out without knowing your particular situation, but would typically include things such as less continuous sitting, more breaks, more moving around. As above, please, don't take this as a "personal drama". I'm not really looking for any miracle drug. I get up hourly to stretch and drink water. I workout 4 times a week and do my best to keep nutrition in order. As I said above, I'm just curious; the user "toadi" has an experience which seems interesting, which is (only) what I asked for. Just a quick remark, this is not strictly true: "would just act as a placebo: it doesn't really help with the actual problem". A placebo can really help with "actual" problems.
  - brianwski 12y ago
    > aging is still quite unavoidable. Would postponing > the unavoidable end really make you less mortified? Yes, I want to postpone the unavoidable. Death is unavoidable, I'm trying to postpone it. I will probably be in a wheel chair like my father eventually, yes I want to postpone that as long as possible so I can walk around in nature and enjoy it. If my hearing starts to fail, I will get hearing aids to try to postpone deafness as long as possible. (My elderly mother wears hearing aids.) I don't care if deafness is inevitable, I will fight for every extra day of hearing birds chirping and the hearing the ocean waves. What am I missing? Isn't everybody just like me? SOME parts of aging are Ok, but most of them are super bad - when your bones get thin due to Osteoporosis if you fall you might break a bone, which in turn might end your life. Nobody wants to get Osteoporosis sooner, we are all trying to postpone it as long as possible, right?
    - 12y ago
- dash2 12y ago
  When I was 29, I felt just the same. Then I hit 30... and realised it doesn't matter. Relax. Worrying about being too old at 29 is absurd. When you are 39, I promise you, you will think back and laugh yourself silly. The all day sitting job might be a real problem, though.
- ansible 12y ago
  Changing to sitting on an exercise ball or going to a standing desk is a less severe thing to try to increase your overall activity level. Cheap too.
- epaladin 12y ago
  Same age... this thread is really making me feel old. Generally I still feel like I'm just getting out here and just getting started still in terms of career, life, etc. I really hope it's not all downhill from 30! Related to the main subject, I don't think my levels have ever been low, but I've always been surprised at how quickly I lose muscle mass when I'm not working out. That might be more related to protein intake and other genetic factors though, since I've always been pretty lean.
  - saiya-jin 12y ago
    Nah, you can start gym/intense excercise anytime, I started about... 31? Major imporovement in about everything, including sex (you don't get tired so easily for example). There is no "too late" age. As for losing muscles - our bodies run in "least necessary amount needed" mode, since muscles are nutritient-hungry to sustain if not needed. You need to constantly push them to even sustain your level of strength/endurance. If I stop all my activities for 2 weeks, you feel horribly weak when coming back. Marathon runner could write books about it :)
- loucal 12y ago
  I don't think more testosterone will help if you are sitting all day. You'd have to make up for all that sitting time with gym time otherwise even low dose testosterone will do nothing but help you gain hair and fat (well and some muscle even if you are sitting but it will probably be negligible). When I first got on testosterone I realized why most males always envied my ability to eat whatever I want without putting on body fat. That changed immediately, within a week I had to watch what I ate bc I noticed some fat building on my lower abdomen.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

yummyfajitas 12y ago

Can anyone link to a gwern-style review of it? Unfortunately a google search for the same just yields a bunch of T-Nation style spam aimed at wannabe bodybuilders.

aydinhan 12y ago
Gwern wrote a section about Testosterone in Nootropics article: http://www.gwern.net/Nootropics#testosterone http://www.gwern.net/Nootropics#testosterone
- yummyfajitas 12y ago
  I like the experiment it proposes, although I wish someone else tried it first.

basicallydan 12y ago

I totally get the argument for using testosterone for sex changes. But as a man who takes his health and fitness into his own hands, I can't help but wonder if something like testosterone would become slightly addictive. Is it something one can use to get out of a slump and then stop taking, or is it more that when one gets to a certain age, it becomes necessary for staying at desired fitness levels?

gadders 12y ago
I've never tried it, but listening to strength training/powerlifting podcasts they do say that after coming off it can be psychologically addictive as your lifts and physical capabilities drop.
mrlase 12y ago
If you're already at normal testosterone levels and decide to take a supraphysiological dose (500 mg/wk of enanthate), you will have to go through post cycle therapy (PCT) when you're finished. PCT restarts your natural testestorone production. You'd take something like Nolvadex for four weeks with a tapering dosage.

daemonfire300 12y ago

I just looked up side-effects of testosterone, again to be sure. Why is this article on the top of HN. It's basically promoting use of a drug with well known side effects which can cause serious damage to your health.

freshfey 12y ago

As someone who went from 430 ng/dl to 1024 ng/dl naturally in about two years time (from age 23 to 25) the only thing I can say is don't jump to too many conclusions here. - Your testosterone should be naturally high if you're below 30 (and male) - If not, something is wrong and you need to fix it (start with blood work, check your diet, move) - If you testosterone is in the normal ranges (blood work recommends between 600 and 1200, which is ridiculous), you'll feel good 80-90% of the time - the 10-20% are probably psychological worries that you might have, start meditating - I didn't get huge muscles or less body fat with more testosterone (huge myth that I thought would change for me) - TRT is used heavily in pro-sports (look for UFC fighters and bodybuilders, they have the most experience, since a lot of them are doing it) - TRT is a problem if you keep going for too long, because your body just doesn't produce testosterone as it used to, because it expects it from the outside, so below 35 or rather below 40 year olds: don't sign up for this too quickly. - Cold showers/baths do work, but probably not for increasing your testosterone, still, do it from time to time :) - Intermittent Fasting helps immensely with boosting your testosterone naturally. I can provide more info or details/specifics if wanted/needed.

return0 12y ago
You 're quite young. i wonder if it is possible to change so fast when you're older.
- freshfey 12y ago
  take a look at the book "4 Hour Body" by Tim Ferriss, there in the chapter Improving Sex, sub-chapter: "Sex Machine I: Adventures in Tripling Testosterone" I think in there the author, Tim Ferriss aged 34(?), mentions how he went from 2xx to 6xx in a very short amount of time, mainly by changing his nutrition.
  - jkscm 12y ago
    Or it could be a coincidence since the number of test subjects was 1. I like how the examine.com article sums it up: > Although 'natural' (non-supplemental) methods of increasing testosterone are pretty weak and unlikely to build muscle mass, they tend to be related to pro-sexual effects (particularly libido) and exerting dominance http://examine.com/faq/how-can-i-increase-testosterone-naturally.html http://examine.com/faq/how-can-i-increase-testosterone-natur...

tormeh 12y ago

It would be nice to have broader shoulders, but an increased sex drive sounds inconvenient. Life is just more dignified without so much neediness. I don't get why anyone (without a more sex-hungry partner, ie most men) would want that. Is it just a gender stereotype / bro thing?

stinos 12y ago
Pretty sure quite a lot of people out there would rather take more frequent, good sex over something rather superficial as broader shoulders. Sex can be extremely pleasant especially if all parties feel like it and are longing for each other. Getting older the opportunities for such sex can become less frequent though, and an increased sex drive could help to counter that. Not sure taking drugs is the best way to achieve that though..
collyw 12y ago
I would have assumed wanting broad shoulder would be so you look more attractive to the opposite sex (or the same sex, if that's what you prefer). The reason being you are more likely to get more sex...
- tormeh 12y ago
  Well, yes, but the timing is important. I wouldn't want a higher sex drive unless sex comes easily, which it doesn't.
drcomputer 12y ago
I am guessing because some hormonal changes in mid/elder life will kick in some kind of emotional down that is mostly fillable by children, rather than peer validation and stuff. That's what I am terrified of. Celibacy allows me to have room to do everything I want to do in life. I'm just terrified I will wake up one day (again) with a hormonal landslide affecting every thought, direction, and attitude I have. Cats like me though, so there's always that.

return0 12y ago

I wonder if it is possible to compare today's T levels with men of 100 years ago or even more. It could be that the industrialization and urbanization has caused a massive change in T levels because of natural reasons (less sun, less exercise, less anxiety, processed foods, tight clothing, what have you)

MegaLeon 12y ago
That's a good point. I remember reading that our generation's T levels are significantly lower than our granpa's.
beaumartinez 12y ago
Alcohol, plastics (which leech from containers into the liquid they contain), pesticides (on fruits, vegetables)—there are a host of environmental factors that reduce our testosterone levels. And as for anxiety, I think our modern urban lifestyle far increases our anxiety levels compared to our ancestors. The human body was not meant for the world we live in!
- epaladin 12y ago
  I've wondered about the effect that environmental factors might have on Japan's current predicament- something in the water? did processing of soy products change at some point such that levels of the estrogen analogs ended up being higher? I guess I haven't been quite curious enough to see if there have been any rigorous studies that have compared T levels there over the last few decades.
rotten 12y ago
I suspect women never really talked about menopause until recent decades, yet they have been experiencing it throughout the existence of our species. (Although there is that traditional "Maiden, Mother, Crone" thing. Hmm.) Anyway, only recently have men started talking about andropause. The main reason it is still a controversial subject is because men's reproduction systems don't completely shut down, and because the process can sometimes be much slower. However we still go through many of the same hormonal changes and it is rather unnerving. I think we have only the barest minimum of understanding of the chemical processes that control and regulate our bodies. Jumping on the production a single chemical as the root of all issues is a little ridiculous sounding to me. Especially in light of all of the recent discoveries about our microbiome. (gut bacteria) It is an insanely complex interplay. Over the next few decades I'm sure our understanding will increase exponentially. It would indeed be very interesting to compare the spectrum and balance of hormones and microbiome structures from 100 years ago to those typical in the contemporary human. It could be different because of lifestyle and environment, or it could be self regulating, and nearly the same (the perceived differences being cultural).

alecco 12y ago

This is quack science. I wouldn't exchange temporary muscular gains for getting bald and other nasty long term side effects.

WhitneyLand 12y ago
What is quack about it? Lots of people are noting anecdotally that is has huge benefits. Are there strong studies disproving this? As to the negative effects, what is the largest/longest term/most reputable citation you have for us?
- corin_ 12y ago
  What's quack about it is testosterone users calling themselves "doctors" to sell testosterone to other people. I haven't looked into research on either side so couldn't tell you whether I think it's a good or stupid thing to do, other than that if I did consider it I certainly wouldn't be considering the anecdotes of these people useful data.
bonn1 12y ago
Would you mind to elaborate about the side effects? The article sounds too good to be true.
- mrlase 12y ago
  The side effects of exogenous testosterone are far over blown, especially at a TRT level dosage (about 200 mg/week depending on the ester used). Many of the side effects can be managed by using medication such as Arimidex.
anjc 12y ago
Sure all muscle gains are temporary. And TRT is typically used by people who would be at an age where baldness is common anyway.
cylinder 12y ago
It sounds like you are the one spouting quack science.

whizzrd 12y ago

Read the leaflets for this product: side effects may differ depending on the region of application ;) AU: http://www.besins-healthcare.com/pdf/testogel%20patient%20information%20leaflet%20%28Australia%29.pdf http://www.besins-healthcare.com/pdf/testogel%20patient%20in... US: http://www.besins-healthcare.com/pdf/androgel_PI.pdf http://www.besins-healthcare.com/pdf/androgel_PI.pdf

WhitneyLand 12y ago
This is utterly useless. Many safe drugs have long, scary side effect descriptions. Conversely, many drugs that have proved harmful over the long term have done so in ways that weren't described on a side effect disclosure.
- whizzrd 12y ago
  You may find it useless until you experience serious side effects (>1% - <10%): headache, dizzyness, paraesthesia, amnesia, hyperaesthesia, mood disorders, hypertension and gynaecomastia Wondering if someone using this product can confirm these symptoms.
slantyyz 12y ago
I'm on TRT for life (see my other posts on this article for why), and I have used Androgel packets daily for 7 years. The side effect that I have experience with is hair growth on some of the body areas (that were hairless before I started using it) that I apply it. Keep in mind that I may be encountering fewer side effects because my body is not producing any significant testosterone itself. If you're using it as a supplement, you could experience more side effects.

adrianoconnor 12y ago

Presumably if you go this route you can't enter any organised sporting events or do any form of competitive racing? Just saying, because as you get older, if you start getting some fitness back you'll possibly want to start challenging yourself this way -- look how many vets enter triathlons and marathons, ride gran fondos etc. I'd see supplements like this as a last resort, for when a changed diet/exercise regime etc. haven't worked.

davak 12y ago

MD here. Just remember that women live longer than men. Although it'll never be proven that hormones are part of that provess, I think it's a good assumption. Many males as they get older become more lovable and more pleasent to be around because of natural hormone declines. There are a ton of health issues such as balding, coronary artery disease, prostate cancer, obstructive sleep apnea that are related to testosterone. Whether these clinics can find the correct cocktail to find a healthy balance isn't clear. I'm neither pro nor con. I've seen people who have been positively and negatively impacted by steroid supplementation.

blfr 12y ago
There are a ton of health issues such as balding, ..., obstructive sleep apnea I thought balding is primarily genetic (men respond differently to some metabolite of testosterone) and obstructive sleep apnea only a serious issue for overweight people. Could you, or someone else, elaborate, maybe link a longer explanation?
- o_____________o 12y ago
  Your predisposition is genetic, but like many things, it's not an on/off switch, and will land you in a gradient. Beyond that, there are lots of variables like how much of your T is albumin/SHBG bound, glucocorticoids, 5a-r, etc. Our endocrine and inflammatory responses are crazy complex. That said, it's easily the leading causal agent, and most people will experience some form of hair loss in their life. Women experience loss at levels that might surprise you. Tellingly, the first defense for women is usually an antiandrogenic (anti-T) called Spironolactone.
return0 12y ago
Indeed there is evidence for it. For some people though, i guess longevity is not the best indicator of the good life. http://www.bbc.com/news/health-19699266 http://www.bbc.com/news/health-19699266
mironathetin 12y ago
I am happy that an expert without a bias reports about this. What you noted down came back into my mind immediately. These were the reported risks for professional athletes (back in the days when I decided to study physics instead of taking more of this junk and go pro). There are also natural ways to keep your own T level high, like healthy food, enough sleep, everything that increases your muscle mass (weightlifting), not too much stress, staying lean, and of course the most enjoyable thing you can do with your partner ;o). All this desn't cost a 1000$ a month, its free and its good for you too. No enhanced risk for cancer, no bad wakeup after 20 years of taking it.

jriley 12y ago

I found DHEA in the natural aisle of local grocery store under $10. I take a low dose daily (in my early 30s). Worth researching. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dehydroepiandrosterone http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dehydroepiandrosterone

chrisbennet 12y ago
Given the recent revelation by the New York attorney general's office [1], what confidence do you have that you are actually getting what is on the label? (I didn't down vote you.) [1] http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/02/03/new-york-attorney-general-targets-supplements-at-major-retailers/?_r=0 http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/02/03/new-york-attorney-g...
- jriley 12y ago
  Fairly confident, although I do believe there is snake oil on the same aisle. I've used brands Natrol and Nature's Bounty. I understand DHEA as a steroid hormone that is a precursor to testosterone. I consider the drug's banned status in athletic competition as a signal it might be effective. From Wiki: "DHEA is legal to sell in the United States as a dietary supplement. It is currently grandfathered in as an "Old Dietary Ingredient" being on sale prior to 1994. DHEA is specifically exempted from the Anabolic Steroid Control Act of 1990 and 2004 It is banned from use in athletic competition."
  - chrisbennet 12y ago
    While DHEA may indeed be effective, if 80% of the natural supplements that were tested did not contain what the label said, one might conclude that there is an 80% chance that a bottle labeled "DHEA" really doesn't contain DHEA.
    - camouso 12y ago
      80% of /store brand herbal/ supplements. This is an important distinction. Brand names were fine.

svantana 12y ago

Is it just me, or did this article completely assume that it's reader is male?

floatboth 12y ago
It definitely assumes the reader wants to be (more) masculine...

hellodevnull 12y ago

>I was just at the gym watching the 30-year-olds at the pull-up bar building muscles in three weeks. And I’m at the pull up bar and nothing’s happening While many of you are thinking that he's making excuses (he might be) or that the other guys worked long and hard to build muscle, I can relate: I've been lifting weights three times a week for the last four years. I still look average, and yes I'm eating and exercising properly. I believe it might be something to do with testosterone. I was always skinny, high body fat and frail. I worked super hard to even start exercising, eventually I was able to get into routine but still now I feel like I should look much better after all this time. What's the deal with testosterone in UK? I'm 27, is it likely that I can get it? Are there home test kits I can get (reliable ones)? Do testosterone boosters actually work (I can't verify without testing)?

chillax 12y ago
Have you gained or lost any weight?
- hellodevnull 12y ago
  I bulked and cut as many recommend. During the bulk phase I put on about 10kg, after which I lowered my calorie intake to try to reduce my body fat and look better (I was skinny-fat). I worked out with some friends, similar age, and they were able to build muscle and increase their lifts at a much higher rate than I could.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
randlet 12y ago
Are you sure you're eating enough? Have your lifts been going up? Before searching out testosterone I would try a beginners lifting program (meaning linear programming, where your lifts go up every workout) and eating a lot (3000-4000kCal a day). Starting Strength (my recommendation), Stronglifts and Ice Cream Fitness (ICF) are 3 popular ones.
- 12y ago

stevepotter 12y ago

I went through a major testosterone-related health scare when I was 31 (4 years ago). I was in the midst of launching a startup. Stressed out, financially strained, hardly sleeping, hardly exercising, drinking too much. I thought I was eating right but turns out I wasn't. I began feeling like an empty shell of my former self. And yes, it totally affected my sex drive. Went to doc and had blood work done. My test levels were about 200, which would be acceptable had I been 70 years old. I was terrified. After ruling things out, the doc prescribed me Androgel, a gel-based test delivery system. You rub it on your shoulders and it absorbs in. But you have to be careful to not let it get on other people. I had a baby girl on the way and sat there thinking that I never want to worry about touching my wife or daughter. Plus this wasn't a temporary treatment. You are a slave to it, and pay about $10/day for it. Oh, and it turns out people, especially younger men, have a higher chance of stroke on that stuff. That's no life, so I decided to try and cure it naturally. And I did. My testosterone is normal now (forget the exact number). And I feel great. It was simple. First, I started strength training. Weights, especially compound moves like squats, will build test levels. And helps with sleep. Check out stronglifts.com if you want a good starting point. Second I fixed my diet. Check out the book The Perfect Health Diet. I learned I was not eating enough good fat. I started using more olive oil, coconut, ghee (butter), and quality rumen meat. It made a huge difference. Finally I cut out the stress. The startup ended up not succeeding but that had nothing to do with me deciding to ease up. I'm happy I did and learned a valuable lesson that health comes first. So there's my story. If you are going to supplement, be prepared for a long bumpy ride. And remember you can boost it naturally.

throaway2357238 12y ago
Second this. I was prescribed androgel and used it briefly. Another doctor explained the various issues associated with it and and I got off of it immediately. Now I'm working out and eating healthy, and my levels are naturally ~2x higher than they were.
johnward 12y ago
Studies have shown that creams are pretty terrible. Especially if you happen to have thyroid problems. They seem to work at first and then fade out for a lot of people. Shots just simply work and are cheaper.

johnward 12y ago

I'm 28 now and I have hypogonadisn and have experience using T and other options like clomid. My total T was <120nd/dl. The lab range for this is usually 300-1000ng/dl. I was severely depressed. Moody and very angry. I experience "roid rage" in the opposite of what most people think. When my T is low I am a completely different, awful person. I literally thought I was going to kill myself. I finally went to the doc. Got the blood work and was put ona low dosage of Testosterone. Enough to get me to the 500ng/dl range. My quality of life improved dramatically and I was the happy and productive person I used to be. I felt like I did in my early 20s instead of like I was approaching 50. Now I have to take clomiphene because the T kills my fertility. Clomid gets my hormones to the 500ng/dl range but I do not feel the same. My brain is "foggy". I'm not as sharp as I was. I'm up and down with my mood. On a higher dosage of clomid I even had experience where my brain just didn't make sane decisions. I rammed a car one time in traffic. I ran over my mailbox backing out of my garage, even though I did this thousands of times before. Testosterone can be a miracle for some people. It saddens me that it get such a bad rep for being used/abused by athletes.

eyeJam 12y ago
If anyone's ever watched the documentary "Bigger, Stronger, Faster*" they raise some interesting points questioning why steroids are demonized. Professional musicians take beta-blockers, athletes get laser eye surgery and take cortisone and opiate shots before/during competition, programmers take Adderall and Modafinil, male porn stars shot their penises full of drugs to stay erect for hours on end, etc. etc. Plenty of examples of professionals "cheating" without widespread media outcry and pearl-clutching about the sanctity of the profession. Furthermore, taking steroids won't improve your muscle-memory, proprioception, agility, sports IQ, etc... In my opinion they should be allowed in sports in some limited cases, such as recovering from an injury, where it would be administered in a controlled environment by a licensed doctor to accelerate recovery. They're a very useful drug if used properly.
- seestheday 12y ago
  Unfortunately the problem is that they work too well. Every time they are legalized in a limited capacity they are abused in professional sports. The effect is massively amplified if you give women drugs because they don't have testosterone levels like men do. Those records that were set in the 70's pre-testing will likely never be broken. The issue is that if it is legal, there is a huge incentive to take it to an abusive point especially in a celebrity economy like what exists is professional sports. In some sports, professional athletes are almost constantly injured. Off the top of my head I can give you MMA (UFC) and american football as examples but I'm sure there are many others. Healthy sports end where competitive sport begins.[1] Right now we have an arms race that barely keeps it at bay. It's not an ideal solution but I think its better than athletes fully abusing their bodies with massive amounts of drugs like they did back in the East German Olympic days. For non-professional athletes, I agree with you. It should not be demonized to the extent it is. 1. Quote from Brecht, referenced many times, e.g here http://gladwell.com/drugstore-athlete/ http://gladwell.com/drugstore-athlete/

ninguem2 12y ago

Be very careful. Usually low T has no discernible cause but sometimes it is caused by a (treatable but potentially very serious) cancer of the pituitary called a prolactinoma. Testosterone treatment can mask the symptoms until is too late. See an endocrinologist before embarking on these "over the counter" treatments.

johnward 12y ago
Yep see and endo and urologist. I had a mri of the brain to rule this out.

deleted 12y ago

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codingdave 12y ago

Maybe I am overly cynical, but... There are a lot of reasons that people may be tired and not in optimal health as they age, testosterone being just one. So when testosterone comes around, and is being pimped by high-cost cash-only doctors, it looks to me as much of a way for a doctor who hates the current medical industry to escape it, and build a high income private practice, as much as a truly holistic approach to improving their patient's lives. I just have some inherent distrust of people who get rich quick when I blindly accept whatever they are selling.

6stringmerc 12y ago

Big fan of supplementation...growing up as a couch potato that medical professionals said should never, ever lift weights due to a physical handicap, I had a lot of body image issues. The fact I really enjoyed comic books didn't help my perception either. Just take a look for yourself and the way the Super Hero bodytype looks like. Straight up juiced[1]. Then, I started natural using a book from the library. Weightlifting actually helped manage a lot of my physical handicap - by being stronger, I was reducing the wear and tear on my body. Well, because I still wanted to break through to another level, I started researching supplements. Using the mind to grow the body. Protein, Glutamine, BCAAs, Tribulus, ZMA - all of them are natural ways to increase physical strength and also grow into a lean, muscular person. They were good, and eventually I found my way to some PH products. If 19-Norandro was good enough for Mark McGwire (it wasn't he was on the real stuff, that was just a cover story), then I was game to try it! Worked great, enjoyed it but also knew that doing so over a long period of time would have side effects. Eventually 19-Norandro got banned. There are chemists doing great work in the field (I've got my eye on one vendor in particular), and they'll always be 1 step ahead of the law, IMO. I did a couple more different products but never stacked to the point where I'd need PCT. Honestly, I think budget and liver damage fears were my driving motives. Just look at Arnold - he had to have heart surgery, and I'd bet a lot of money it's related to the muscle being exposed to years of heavy steroid doses[2]. These days I avoid PH or the juice outright. As I age, I might get back into the scene, but it's a crap shoot. There are far, far too many placebo type products out there, and the really good stuff has side effects that must be planned for, otherwise the whole quality of life part goes down, and where's the fun in that? Overall, I'd say TRT/PH/Juice are definitely not for everybody, but they're not inherently evil. Sort of like alcohol. Not everybody can knock back a dozen beers during a weekend marathon session at home and still be productive / nice / etc, but it's possible depending on the individual. [1] Freshman year of University the next door neighbor was a Pre-Med, about 5'2" and 205 lbs. We became pals and he let me in on the steroid secrets (cycling, GHB for sleep, etc). We did have a good laugh talking about how comic book characters reflected different steroids: Want to be Captain America? Deca. Wolverine? Winstrol. Sabretooth? Deca + Winstrol! It was a joke in a lot of ways, but kind of not... [2] Arnold is coming! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sHvWYAzIRo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sHvWYAzIRo

12y ago

dr_ 12y ago

Assuming there are a significant number of men on here who hope to some day have a family, it's inportant to note that a significant side effect of exogenous testosterone administration is male infertility. Simplified, the excess testosterone in the blood stream sends signals that shut down the hormones essential for sperm production. This may not matter if you are mid life or older and already have children, or if you don't plan on having any, but otherwise do NOT take exogenous testosterone.

cylinder 12y ago
HCG, Clomid can be taken to counter that.
- dr_ 12y ago
  And anastrazole. However you would have to stop taking exogenous testosterone and take these meds and it still potentially may not work and you could require surgery for extraction. They would raise testosterone levels, but you would not see the same "physical benefits" as a testosterone gel would provide.

bikamonki 12y ago

http://www.drugwatch.com/testosterone/side-effects/ http://www.drugwatch.com/testosterone/side-effects/

nether 12y ago

You can get (expensive) testosterone (DHT) cream from dhtcream.com. No prescription, legal everywhere.

lafar6502 12y ago

I wonder what will be the effects of all these tons of testosterone goingh through humans into water, soil and all other organisms.

Xcelerate 12y ago

I have a hard time believing this. My testosterone level is 1,114 ng/dL naturally and I sure don't feel pumped full of energy and ready to go all the time (I'm 24). And I was even a D1 athlete. All it means for me is a greater risk of prostate cancer (which both my grandfathers had). My doctor was concerned about it being that high. Also, I think the rumors about men with high testosterone being aggressive or having a "player/alpha" mentality have been disproven; I don't remember which journal that study was in. I'm about the least aggressive person I know. If anything, I'm too passive and have a difficult time expressing what I want.

jesstify 12y ago

Transwoman here, and I have some personal experience in this regard. I've been on T blockers for about 2 years, and I have seen significant mood, hair, and skin improvements, not to mention a lower resting heart rate. My chances of getting prostate cancer have been reduced to basically nil, which is pretty great. A significant portion of the benefits are from the estrogen, but just reducing bioavailable T does make a big difference in skin, mood, and hair. On the flipside, a close friend who is a transman (meaning he is on T), and when he went on it, he became very aggressive and prone to angry outburts, developed significant acne, and a very significant increase in body hair. So... ya know, just be careful so you don't end up having crazy moodswings and back-ne

loucal 12y ago
I'm sure whoever is prescribing you estrogen has told you that synthetic estrogen is incredibly hard on the liver. The reduced risk of you getting prostate cancer is as far as I understand it FAR outweighed by the likelihood that at some point you will have liver issues to deal with. Also, I am on TRT and this is somewhat anecdotal (although many 'bodybuilder' types that use testosterone support this) I have noticed the effects on skin mood and hair are stongly related to estrogen, prolactin, and progesterone levels (meaning they should be in the normal range for male or female depending on what your goal is wrt testosterone). I also agree with the commenter somewhere on here that mentioned he feels the 'roid-rage' when he is low. Also anecdotal but generally agreed upon by the community is that the mood swings come from actual 'swings' of testosterone (and bad moods are when you are low, they should call it roid-affection instead). FDA approved esthers in the US (for injection) do not allow precise daily control to mimic the natural cycle, so there can be some very minor mood changes throughout the week (my dr is open minded and lets me pin the cypionate twice weekly) but I would honestly suggest that your friend had some placebo effect goin on there. As for his 'back-ne', I would check my prolactin levels if I had bad acne on my back (sometimes I do get it, and the levels are always slightly elevated... what to do about it is another story). Anyway, all due respect of course and I have much admiration of anyone who goes through such great lengths to 'be themselves' but please do make sure you are educated on the risks and minimizing them (I remember hearing it mentioned that the patches of estrogen are much easier on the liver than injections but that was from a tv show I think so take it with a grain of salt) I do believe that you are correct in saying >A significant portion of the benefits are from the estrogen, I just don't think you realize how much. As someone who lost a fair portion of my natural production almost instantly I can say with confidence that even if one were considering to transition to the fairer sex, losing your test without boosting the estrogen has pretty much NO positives except perhaps the reduced prostate cancer risk.

DonCarlitos 12y ago

Don't forget that Testosterone "feeds" prostate cancer, and that most men will have one variety of prostate cancer or another by age 75. It's often slow growing, but if one feeds it, a different story. So potential "T" users should think twice about messing with this particular hormone.

ajarmst 12y ago

This article seems pretty imbalanced. Modifying your natural endocrine levels (and the decline of testosterone with age in men is natural) can have significant unanticipated long-term effects (witness the problem with estrogen replacement therapy in women). A quick Google Scholar search pops up paper with titles like "Serum testosterone is associated with aggressive prostate cancer in older men", "Increased heart attacks in men using testosterone: the UK importantly lags far behind the US in prescribing testosterone", "High Estrogen in Men After Injectable Testosterone Therapy" and "A review on the relationship between testosterone and life-course persistent antisocial behavior". There is clearly medical literature that contradicts the rosy view indicated by the article's sources. I would have liked to see the article discuss those issues and the associated studies.

anigbrowl 12y ago

http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html