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My inner paranoid finds this interesting from the perspective of Google entering yet another domain where they have high accuracy data on the present/future whe

My inner paranoid finds this interesting from the perspective of Google entering yet another domain where they have high accuracy data on the present/future whereabouts and private concerns of a large number of people.. add it to the hundred other properties they maintain that appear to have no direct business value other than capturing masses of sensitive data that was previously nicely decentralized and private. Can't book a flight (ITA), order a taxi (this), book a hotel or chat with a friend (Gmail), or pay for dinner (Wallet) without generating an activity log with a single company. Even if (and perhaps even probably) Google weren't doing this intentionally, they've already demonstrated through failing to encrypt their inter-DC connections how they're becoming a massive single point of failure (remember Snowden showed us the NSA were tapping Google's internal network already). Whether the end result is an intelligence service tap, or some legislative measure affecting the company done in the open, I'll simply never be comfortable with one company concentrating so much personal data affecting so many people.

thrownaway2424 12y ago
Well you're in luck on that last point, because nobody has ever paid for their meal with Google Wallet.
- Kalium 12y ago
  I've bought food with Wallet before. And made a meal of it. So, I suppose I have.
  - jsprogrammer 12y ago
    Better be on the look out. NSA might blackbag you.
    - JetSpiegel 12y ago
      Eating meat doesn't warrant that.
      - jsprogrammer 12y ago
        I'm not sure anything warrants that. More seriously though (HN can't take a joke), what is the real concern here? NSA can't 100% trust the data they collect and it certainly can't be used in any court because plausible deniability (and past, known-fabrications/parallel-construction) will always trump whatever records or logs are produced.
      - tree_of_item 12y ago
        Since when does the NSA need warrants?
    - Kalium 12y ago
      They can have my $5 chicken wrap when they pry it from my cold, dead stomach.
  - serve_yay 12y ago
    Welcome to HN, where "nobody uses x" is disproved by one person using x, because the only logic in existence is Popperian.
    - recursive 12y ago
      No, you're wrong. I once used non-Popperian logic.
      - wpietri 12y ago
        I am honestly crying with laughter here. Future historians may recognize this as the perfect Hacker News comment.
        nl 12y ago
        Actually, this is: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35079 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35079
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
    - neverwrong 12y ago
      i didn't realize negation is an invented concept ("popperian")
      - pfortuny 12y ago
        It is not. But that is the point of Scientific knowlege, is it not? Falsability...
  - frandroid 12y ago
    #NotAllWallets
- pyrocat 12y ago
  Eat24.
- prostoalex 12y ago
  They are now sending people debit Mastercards, which presumably is much more convenient for non-tech folks to use in the contexts you're referring to https://support.google.com/wallet/answer/3529204?hl=en https://support.google.com/wallet/answer/3529204?hl=en
higherpurpose 12y ago
I wonder if eventually NSA will get massive layoffs because much of what they'd do would be redundant, and for 80 percent of the stuff they want they could just ask/hack Google. The other 20 percent employees will remain for users of Google competitors and more targeted spying. So essentially 80 percent of NSA's "intelligence" would be outsourced to Google (for free).
- krschultz 12y ago
  Nope. The fact that they have to be a bit fuzzy with their accounting to cover up the interesting programs means it is near impossible to tell who is sitting idle and useless, and who is super critical but on a project that intentionally is described as idle and useless.
- nofutureagain 12y ago
  > they could just ask/hack Google You mean "buy from". This is Google's core business. And I don't consider the NSA more creepy than Google's other customers.
  - newaccountfool 12y ago
    Surely they don't need to buy it, surely they can request it under the guise of national security.
    - pyrocat 12y ago
      "request" haha
  - dragonwriter 12y ago
    > You mean "buy from". > This is Google's core business. And I don't consider the NSA more creepy than Google's other customers. Google's core business is keeping personal data and using it to target ads that advertisers pay Google to show, not providing that personal data to paying customers. Selling the data would be giving away the prime competitive edge Google has, which lies in selling services (primarily advertising) where Google has a competitive edge because of its unique access to the data. So, unless the NSA wants Google to show you ads rather than wanting detailed information on you, what they would be looking for would not be what Google's core business involves selling.
conformal 12y ago
i assume you've read the recent article by nafeez ahmed from vice, etc, about how google's search algorithms were funded via the NSF/CIA/NSA for 2 years before google ever existed and that sergey reported to someone working for the CIA's ORD for that period. https://medium.com/@NafeezAhmed/how-the-cia-made-google-e836451a959e https://medium.com/@NafeezAhmed/how-the-cia-made-google-e836... if you haven't read this, it's a long but great read. the best thing google ever did was create go (golang). huge props to robert griesemer, rob pike and ken thompson for getting it all going.
api 12y ago
While I agree, I don't see why Uber or Lyft couldn't be bribed/pressured into sharing all they have.
karmacondon 12y ago
Excessive. You can call an airline, hotel or taxi company directly, text your friends or pay for dinner with cash. Your inner paranoid is drawn to the convenience of the services that google offers. If you don't want one company to have a lot of information about you, then don't use that company for everything. Google loves data. But generally in the aggregate, not the personal. I've yet to see anything even remotely creepy of any kind from google advertising. "Hey karmacondon, we saw that you recently booked a trip to las vegas, took a self-driving cab to the Bunny Ranch and used your Google Wallet to pay for two hours with someone named 'Bubbles'. Can we interest you in some anti-itch creme?". That kind of personal intrusion just doesn't match anything I've seen from Google, and until that day comes I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. MasterCard and Visa know more about you than Google ever will. You can't book a flight or check into a hotel without using a credit card, which is directly attached to your name and is trivially subpoenable. If you're really worried, there are ways to live a cash only existence, but it isn't easy. Some level of trust is required to live in modern society. It's good to be skeptical, but it always comes down to the level of inconvenience you're willing to trade for privacy.
- sumitviii 12y ago
  >MasterCard and Visa know more about you than Google ever will Google has knowledge of routes which you take to work everyday. Friends you are close with. Online services you are using. And you want them to have it. You don't want (atleast intentionally) MC/Visa to have that kind of knowledge about you.

thrownaway2424 12y ago

Well you're in luck on that last point, because nobody has ever paid for their meal with Google Wallet.

Kalium 12y ago
I've bought food with Wallet before. And made a meal of it. So, I suppose I have.
- jsprogrammer 12y ago
  Better be on the look out. NSA might blackbag you.
  - JetSpiegel 12y ago
    Eating meat doesn't warrant that.
    - jsprogrammer 12y ago
      I'm not sure anything warrants that. More seriously though (HN can't take a joke), what is the real concern here? NSA can't 100% trust the data they collect and it certainly can't be used in any court because plausible deniability (and past, known-fabrications/parallel-construction) will always trump whatever records or logs are produced.
    - tree_of_item 12y ago
      Since when does the NSA need warrants?
  - Kalium 12y ago
    They can have my $5 chicken wrap when they pry it from my cold, dead stomach.
- serve_yay 12y ago
  Welcome to HN, where "nobody uses x" is disproved by one person using x, because the only logic in existence is Popperian.
  - recursive 12y ago
    No, you're wrong. I once used non-Popperian logic.
    - wpietri 12y ago
      I am honestly crying with laughter here. Future historians may recognize this as the perfect Hacker News comment.
      - nl 12y ago
        Actually, this is: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35079 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35079
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - neverwrong 12y ago
    i didn't realize negation is an invented concept ("popperian")
    - pfortuny 12y ago
      It is not. But that is the point of Scientific knowlege, is it not? Falsability...
- frandroid 12y ago
  #NotAllWallets
pyrocat 12y ago
Eat24.
prostoalex 12y ago
They are now sending people debit Mastercards, which presumably is much more convenient for non-tech folks to use in the contexts you're referring to https://support.google.com/wallet/answer/3529204?hl=en https://support.google.com/wallet/answer/3529204?hl=en

higherpurpose 12y ago

I wonder if eventually NSA will get massive layoffs because much of what they'd do would be redundant, and for 80 percent of the stuff they want they could just ask/hack Google. The other 20 percent employees will remain for users of Google competitors and more targeted spying. So essentially 80 percent of NSA's "intelligence" would be outsourced to Google (for free).

krschultz 12y ago
Nope. The fact that they have to be a bit fuzzy with their accounting to cover up the interesting programs means it is near impossible to tell who is sitting idle and useless, and who is super critical but on a project that intentionally is described as idle and useless.
nofutureagain 12y ago
> they could just ask/hack Google You mean "buy from". This is Google's core business. And I don't consider the NSA more creepy than Google's other customers.
- newaccountfool 12y ago
  Surely they don't need to buy it, surely they can request it under the guise of national security.
  - pyrocat 12y ago
    "request" haha
- dragonwriter 12y ago
  > You mean "buy from". > This is Google's core business. And I don't consider the NSA more creepy than Google's other customers. Google's core business is keeping personal data and using it to target ads that advertisers pay Google to show, not providing that personal data to paying customers. Selling the data would be giving away the prime competitive edge Google has, which lies in selling services (primarily advertising) where Google has a competitive edge because of its unique access to the data. So, unless the NSA wants Google to show you ads rather than wanting detailed information on you, what they would be looking for would not be what Google's core business involves selling.

conformal 12y ago

i assume you've read the recent article by nafeez ahmed from vice, etc, about how google's search algorithms were funded via the NSF/CIA/NSA for 2 years before google ever existed and that sergey reported to someone working for the CIA's ORD for that period. https://medium.com/@NafeezAhmed/how-the-cia-made-google-e836451a959e https://medium.com/@NafeezAhmed/how-the-cia-made-google-e836... if you haven't read this, it's a long but great read. the best thing google ever did was create go (golang). huge props to robert griesemer, rob pike and ken thompson for getting it all going.

api 12y ago

While I agree, I don't see why Uber or Lyft couldn't be bribed/pressured into sharing all they have.

karmacondon 12y ago

Excessive. You can call an airline, hotel or taxi company directly, text your friends or pay for dinner with cash. Your inner paranoid is drawn to the convenience of the services that google offers. If you don't want one company to have a lot of information about you, then don't use that company for everything. Google loves data. But generally in the aggregate, not the personal. I've yet to see anything even remotely creepy of any kind from google advertising. "Hey karmacondon, we saw that you recently booked a trip to las vegas, took a self-driving cab to the Bunny Ranch and used your Google Wallet to pay for two hours with someone named 'Bubbles'. Can we interest you in some anti-itch creme?". That kind of personal intrusion just doesn't match anything I've seen from Google, and until that day comes I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. MasterCard and Visa know more about you than Google ever will. You can't book a flight or check into a hotel without using a credit card, which is directly attached to your name and is trivially subpoenable. If you're really worried, there are ways to live a cash only existence, but it isn't easy. Some level of trust is required to live in modern society. It's good to be skeptical, but it always comes down to the level of inconvenience you're willing to trade for privacy.

sumitviii 12y ago
>MasterCard and Visa know more about you than Google ever will Google has knowledge of routes which you take to work everyday. Friends you are close with. Online services you are using. And you want them to have it. You don't want (atleast intentionally) MC/Visa to have that kind of knowledge about you.