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What's it with the anti-intellectualist strain in America? Learning a foreign language at any decent level means becoming acquainted with the literature writte

What's it with the anti-intellectualist strain in America? Learning a foreign language at any decent level means becoming acquainted with the literature written in that language and with the culture of the country where the language is spoken. Learning that kind of stuff is good for you. Even if it doesn't translate into increased material wealth.

w1ntermute 12y ago
> Learning a foreign language at any decent level means becoming acquainted with the literature written in that language and with the culture of the country where the language is spoken. When your first language is English, both of these things are often possible without actually knowing other languages.
- Tharkun 12y ago
  How do you mean? Translated literature loses a lot of nuance. And it's hard to be immersed into a culture when you don't speak the language.
- TillE 12y ago
  Even a very good translation is not the original. It's basically a separate work. I mean, I've heard some lovely poetic German translations of Shakespeare. But it's not Shakespeare, not really.
  - junto 12y ago
    Funnily enough, some would argue that Shakespeare in modern English also isn't real Shakespeare! Check out the original prenounciation: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlpphT7n9s https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlpphT7n9s
    - mikeash 12y ago
      I've seen it argued (IMO pretty convincingly) that people who don't speak English get a more authentic Shakespeare experience than those of us who do. English speakers almost always get Shakespeare in the original language, which is nominally English but in reality is just on the edge of understanding. There's a strong current of "this is really different!" any time you get actual Shakespeare, and it really makes the stuff feel unnatural. Whereas people who speak, say, French get Shakespeare translated into modern, idiomatic French and it's much more natural that way. The original isn't necessarily the best or even the most authentic.
- fidotron 12y ago
  Almost all non-native English speakers conflate language and culture to a degree that they would interpret your statement as an inherent impossibility. For example, some notions of nationhood are described in terms like "speakers of the Japanese language".
Tharkun 12y ago
Exactly. And it's obviously of great help when encountering people who speak said language. Communication is a wonderful thing.
yummyfajitas 12y ago
I've picked up some basic Portuguese in 2014. One doesn't need to be anti-intellectual to think that my efforts might be better spent learning a new skill rather than a small variant on a skill I already have (speaking, reading and writing). There are some benefits - Brazilian and Mozambican ladies are beautiful. But that's hardly an intellectual benefit. So what does "good for me" mean in concrete terms? What am I missing here?
- isaacremuant 12y ago
  The mental exercise is definitely good. If you only knew one language knowing another will probably increase your knowledge of your native one as well. I'm not saying it's a must but it can come handy and be a healthy exercise.
  - isaacremuant 12y ago
    HN is severely disappointing. Here I was thinking it was different from Reddit regarding downvotes and intelligent discussion but it's not. It's downvote on disagreement.
    - dang 12y ago
      Please don't post comments like this. They break the guidelines ("Resist complaining about being downmodded"—https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html) and the downvote being complained about is often soon corrected by other users. That's what happened with yours. We all know how annoying it is to have a reasonable comment downvoted, but (a) it happens to everyone, (b) sometimes it's just a misclick, and (c) changing the subject to that only lowers the signal/noise ratio.
      - isaacremuant 12y ago
        Noted. I was negatively surprised after seeing a trend. Won't happen again.
- 12y ago
saalweachter 12y ago
Well, firstly, the researcher quoted extensively in this article is a Dutch-born scientist at the University of Edinburgh. Secondly -- and from here on out I'll be derailing to rant at a more general 'you' than you specifically -- what is with you g-d global tourists and cultural dilettantes who think a cultural diet composed equally of small portions of everything is the only valid choice? And why does it always come back to Americans, specifically? (besides, you know, us all being assholes?) When you are off visiting a fishing village in Malaysia, do you tell the fishermen, "You should really visit New York sometime and try the pizza. It will really broaden your horizons!"? There is an absurd amount of culture available, more than any one person could ever consume. Why is it so hurtful to you that someone might be content immersing themselves in their own culture, or -- worse! -- reading Proust in translation?
- EliRivers 12y ago
  And why does it always come back to Americans, specifically? It doesn't; the others just don't get read so much because they're not written in English :)
- normloman 12y ago
  You're really arguing that learning about other cultures doesn't have a benefit? Cross cultural pollination not only contributes to a feeling of good will between counties, but it's responsible for lots of cultural and technological innovations. American culture is just a mish-mash of other cultures. Think about it. You eat spaghetti!
  - saalweachter 12y ago
    No, I'm saying that there are multiple ways to live your life. Cross-pollination may be a good thing, but the bees are not the flowers. Some people need to be locals, and being a local is not inferior to being a cross-pollinator.
- bmm6o 12y ago
  > and from here on out I'll be derailing to rant at a more general 'you' than you specifically At least you warned us, but how is this at all related to the comment you are nominally replying to?
mikeash 12y ago
What's with commenting on an interesting article with an irrelevant and baseless attack on my country?
- happyscrappy 12y ago
  Easy upvotes.
scott_s 12y ago
I find your comment to be strange; the article is not an argument against learning another language or experiencing another culture. Rather, the article is about the rather simple question: do people who are bilingual enjoy cognitive benefits over those who are not? There is no judgement attached to this question.
rhino369 12y ago
Learning a whole new language just to read literature or enjoy another culture is a lot of work. Lets not pretend people are doing that all across the world. If you fall in love with a particular culture go right ahead. But if you don't, what then? Learn a bunch? I bet nearly all bilingualism is caused by immigration, cultures with historically close contact, and people learning a lingua franca. Part of the reason the US tends to be monolingual is because we have only one native language. English is the lingua franca of North America and now the globe. Spanish is growing because the fuzzier and fuzzier border with Mexico. But it's kind of a waste to learn German just so that when I got a trip there once every 5 years I'll be more able to drink up the culture.
bigpeopleareold 12y ago
I'm acquainting myself with contemporary literature of my current country of residence; specifically the contents of newspapers. I'm a good American now? Or, is my sarcasm down-vote worthy?

w1ntermute 12y ago

> Learning a foreign language at any decent level means becoming acquainted with the literature written in that language and with the culture of the country where the language is spoken. When your first language is English, both of these things are often possible without actually knowing other languages.

Tharkun 12y ago
How do you mean? Translated literature loses a lot of nuance. And it's hard to be immersed into a culture when you don't speak the language.
TillE 12y ago
Even a very good translation is not the original. It's basically a separate work. I mean, I've heard some lovely poetic German translations of Shakespeare. But it's not Shakespeare, not really.
- junto 12y ago
  Funnily enough, some would argue that Shakespeare in modern English also isn't real Shakespeare! Check out the original prenounciation: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlpphT7n9s https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlpphT7n9s
  - mikeash 12y ago
    I've seen it argued (IMO pretty convincingly) that people who don't speak English get a more authentic Shakespeare experience than those of us who do. English speakers almost always get Shakespeare in the original language, which is nominally English but in reality is just on the edge of understanding. There's a strong current of "this is really different!" any time you get actual Shakespeare, and it really makes the stuff feel unnatural. Whereas people who speak, say, French get Shakespeare translated into modern, idiomatic French and it's much more natural that way. The original isn't necessarily the best or even the most authentic.
fidotron 12y ago
Almost all non-native English speakers conflate language and culture to a degree that they would interpret your statement as an inherent impossibility. For example, some notions of nationhood are described in terms like "speakers of the Japanese language".

Tharkun 12y ago

Exactly. And it's obviously of great help when encountering people who speak said language. Communication is a wonderful thing.

yummyfajitas 12y ago

I've picked up some basic Portuguese in 2014. One doesn't need to be anti-intellectual to think that my efforts might be better spent learning a new skill rather than a small variant on a skill I already have (speaking, reading and writing). There are some benefits - Brazilian and Mozambican ladies are beautiful. But that's hardly an intellectual benefit. So what does "good for me" mean in concrete terms? What am I missing here?

isaacremuant 12y ago
The mental exercise is definitely good. If you only knew one language knowing another will probably increase your knowledge of your native one as well. I'm not saying it's a must but it can come handy and be a healthy exercise.
- isaacremuant 12y ago
  HN is severely disappointing. Here I was thinking it was different from Reddit regarding downvotes and intelligent discussion but it's not. It's downvote on disagreement.
  - dang 12y ago
    Please don't post comments like this. They break the guidelines ("Resist complaining about being downmodded"—https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html) and the downvote being complained about is often soon corrected by other users. That's what happened with yours. We all know how annoying it is to have a reasonable comment downvoted, but (a) it happens to everyone, (b) sometimes it's just a misclick, and (c) changing the subject to that only lowers the signal/noise ratio.
    - isaacremuant 12y ago
      Noted. I was negatively surprised after seeing a trend. Won't happen again.
12y ago

saalweachter 12y ago

Well, firstly, the researcher quoted extensively in this article is a Dutch-born scientist at the University of Edinburgh. Secondly -- and from here on out I'll be derailing to rant at a more general 'you' than you specifically -- what is with you g-d global tourists and cultural dilettantes who think a cultural diet composed equally of small portions of everything is the only valid choice? And why does it always come back to Americans, specifically? (besides, you know, us all being assholes?) When you are off visiting a fishing village in Malaysia, do you tell the fishermen, "You should really visit New York sometime and try the pizza. It will really broaden your horizons!"? There is an absurd amount of culture available, more than any one person could ever consume. Why is it so hurtful to you that someone might be content immersing themselves in their own culture, or -- worse! -- reading Proust in translation?

EliRivers 12y ago
And why does it always come back to Americans, specifically? It doesn't; the others just don't get read so much because they're not written in English :)
normloman 12y ago
You're really arguing that learning about other cultures doesn't have a benefit? Cross cultural pollination not only contributes to a feeling of good will between counties, but it's responsible for lots of cultural and technological innovations. American culture is just a mish-mash of other cultures. Think about it. You eat spaghetti!
- saalweachter 12y ago
  No, I'm saying that there are multiple ways to live your life. Cross-pollination may be a good thing, but the bees are not the flowers. Some people need to be locals, and being a local is not inferior to being a cross-pollinator.
bmm6o 12y ago
> and from here on out I'll be derailing to rant at a more general 'you' than you specifically At least you warned us, but how is this at all related to the comment you are nominally replying to?

mikeash 12y ago

What's with commenting on an interesting article with an irrelevant and baseless attack on my country?

happyscrappy 12y ago
Easy upvotes.

scott_s 12y ago

I find your comment to be strange; the article is not an argument against learning another language or experiencing another culture. Rather, the article is about the rather simple question: do people who are bilingual enjoy cognitive benefits over those who are not? There is no judgement attached to this question.

rhino369 12y ago

Learning a whole new language just to read literature or enjoy another culture is a lot of work. Lets not pretend people are doing that all across the world. If you fall in love with a particular culture go right ahead. But if you don't, what then? Learn a bunch? I bet nearly all bilingualism is caused by immigration, cultures with historically close contact, and people learning a lingua franca. Part of the reason the US tends to be monolingual is because we have only one native language. English is the lingua franca of North America and now the globe. Spanish is growing because the fuzzier and fuzzier border with Mexico. But it's kind of a waste to learn German just so that when I got a trip there once every 5 years I'll be more able to drink up the culture.

bigpeopleareold 12y ago

I'm acquainting myself with contemporary literature of my current country of residence; specifically the contents of newspapers. I'm a good American now? Or, is my sarcasm down-vote worthy?