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Most of you, dear Handesblatt readers, will have formed a preconception of what this article is about before you actually read it. [...] Prejudice was never a g

Most of you, dear Handesblatt readers, will have formed a preconception of what this article is about before you actually read it. [...] Prejudice was never a good guide, [...] How does he not hear himself? Also, "Handelsblatt" is missing a letter. Anyway ... I reject the premise of his letter. He seems to think the purpose of the money was to help the greek people, and offers a more productive way of doing so. That's all fine, but I'm pretty sure the sole purpose of the money was to save the Euro. Whether that's ethical is debatable, but I think it's important to remember that Greece has messed up quite a lot of things without considering how that might effect other EU member states; ignoring at least some of their responsibilities. But that's a different story entirely. His tone is utterly disrespectful, if you ask me. I'm really not sure who he thinks he is or what he thinks he's doing, but I know for a fact that a lot of my fellow germans aren't gonna like being spoken to in this tone of voice. He mentions fear and anxiety a lot. I don't know what he means by that. We're quite calm, as far as I can tell, and I can imagine that scares him a little. Germany is one of the riches countries on this planet. We will do almost anything to keep it that way. I appreciate that he needs to sell his own agency to his people, but if he actually believes he can control the fate of his country even so slightly, I'm afraid he's delusional. Just for the record: I'm neither proud of nor happy about how we treated the greek people, but I'm tired of pretending this is about anything but money.

jacquesm 12y ago
> That's all fine, but I'm pretty sure the sole purpose of the money was to save the Euro. It actually hurt the Euro. What it did do is save/prop up some very large French and German banks. Nothing like gambling with other people's money to see if you can come out ahead and ask for a hand-out if your plan fails. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2011-06-05/german-banks-top-french-with-23-billion-in-greek-debt-bis-says http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2011-06-05/german-ban... The cynic in me says that no single politician that supported the bail out ever expected that money to be paid back. Greece would have to completely change its culture in order to be able to pay those loans back.
- teamhappy 12y ago
  What I was trying to say is that most politicians at the time (this applies to the US as well, I guess) were willing do to almost anything to stop the collapse, even if that meant hurting the Euro in the long term. The (somewhat hypothetical) alternative could have been a lot worse.
tomp 12y ago
> Germany is one of the riches countries on this planet. A lot of that riches comes from the fact that EUR is a common currency both of economically successful countries like Germany and of economically weak countries like Greece. That makes the currency artificially undervalued, which boosts German exports and hurts Greek imports, making Germany more competitive and Greece less competitive (longer comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8954377 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8954377). I think it's time Germany admits to that and pays its dues, by which I mean help finance the rest of EU (via a fiscal union).
- sfk 12y ago
  This is utterly ridiculous. West Germany was FAR better off economically when the D-Mark was strong.
  - teamhappy 12y ago
    You're assuming that the D-Mark would be as strong (or possibly even stronger) as it was back then today. Which is a bold assumption. As a matter of fact, nobody (apart from some utterly ridiculous right-wing politicians) even considerers this an option.
  - dash2 12y ago
    If you literally mean that Germany was richer in the time before the introduction of the Euro, then simple GDP statistics show otherwise - not surprisingly, as it was a long time ago. If you mean the Euro was bad for the German economy, I wonder why you think that? By removing exchange rate risk, the Euro has made it easier for German businesses to sell to other Eurozone countries.
- teamhappy 12y ago
  I'm not entirely sure what it is you're suggesting. The EU is designed to make us (Germany, France, etc.) more competitive. That unfortunately also means that countries like Greece don't profit as much (or at all, for that matter), but then again, nobody was forced to join to EU. > I think it's time Germany admits to that and pays its dues, by which I mean help finance the rest of EU (via a fiscal union). Do you really think we don't know what we're doing? You say we need to "pay our dues". You do realize we're talking about the fact that Greece can't pay it's dues, yes? As far as help financing the rest of the EU goes, keep on dreaming. There is no way any german is going to vote for that given that we have plenty of kids growing up below the poverty line.
charonn0 12y ago
I expected that Germans might be sympathetic to a country whose economically struggling population are turning, in electorally significant numbers, to Fascism.
- chckn 12y ago
  I expect that people do not judge Germans by one German's opinion.
jklowden 12y ago
> if he actually believes he can control the fate of his country even so slightly, I'm afraid he's delusional He's the elected leader of sovereign nation. If you don't think repudiating the debt is an option (good or bad), I'm afraid he's not the delusional one. If that's not "control" of the fate of the country, I don't know what is.
- teamhappy 12y ago
  Oh come on. "Elected leader of a sovereign nation". You gotta be kidding me. Merkel is the elected leader of a sovereign nation significantly more powerful than Greece will ever be, and yet, Obama is listening to her phone calls and she can't do anything about it. One of the first things he did was meet with officials from other EU countries, no? Concluding that he's not gonna do anything for the time being. Go figure.
smacktoward 12y ago
> Germany is one of the riches countries on this planet. We will do almost anything to keep it that way. If the only practical effect of European union will be to enrich Germany at the expense of its neighbors, European union will fail, and rightly so. > I appreciate that he needs to sell his own agency to his people, but if he actually believes he can control the fate of his country even so slightly, I'm afraid he's delusional. Just a suggestion: before Germans start telling other people to get over the idea of having any control over their own affairs, it would probably be wise to reflect on how well that message went over the last two times they tried it.
- teamhappy 12y ago
  > Just a suggestion: before Germans start telling other people to get over the idea of having any control over their own affairs, it would probably be wise to reflect on how well that message went over the last two times they tried it. You should have gone with how we suck up the the US all the time; that would have been a way better put down. Given what went on in Greece over the last couple of years, I'd recommend you drop the nazi references for the time being.
  - anextio 12y ago
    Indeed. There are many better examples of post-war soft power projection through economic meddling that this case could be compared to. Not the nazis. They are far on the other side of the economic meddling coin.
- peterfirefly 12y ago
  If you really mean "the last two times" and not "the last time", you should probably read some history books that were not meant for school children.
lithander 12y ago
You're cynical. The tone of the open letter is nothing compared to the tone of your comment. If you truely believe that we Europeans aren't living in a democracy anymore and that politics shouldn't be about the peoples wellbeing in the first place then stop worrying about PEGIDA or Dschungelcamp and do something about that. You stance of "this is how the world works and I'm lucky to be on the winning team" is both short sighted and highly egoistic. I would be ashamed if many of our "fellow germans" would agree with your point of view.
- peterfirefly 12y ago
  I am not worried about PEGIDA. I am worried about the mischaracterisations of PEGIDA. I am also /very/ worried about Antifa.
  - eli_gottlieb 12y ago
    Why are you more worried about anti-fascists than about fascists?
    - peterfirefly 12y ago
      Because the "anti"-fascists are fascists and PEGIDA are anti-fascists. Their anti-fascism is one of the reasons why they are against Islam -- anyone who is against suppresion, violence, and fascism ought to be against Islam, just as they should be against Communism and Nazism.
      - eli_gottlieb 12y ago
        I don't think you can call PEGIDA antifascists, since they're, well, far-right nationalists who hate immigrants and have violent tendencies. Just because the Antifa organization holds an intellectually inconsistent position doesn't mean the reverse position from Antifa is actually correct.

jacquesm 12y ago

> That's all fine, but I'm pretty sure the sole purpose of the money was to save the Euro. It actually hurt the Euro. What it did do is save/prop up some very large French and German banks. Nothing like gambling with other people's money to see if you can come out ahead and ask for a hand-out if your plan fails. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2011-06-05/german-banks-top-french-with-23-billion-in-greek-debt-bis-says http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2011-06-05/german-ban... The cynic in me says that no single politician that supported the bail out ever expected that money to be paid back. Greece would have to completely change its culture in order to be able to pay those loans back.

teamhappy 12y ago
What I was trying to say is that most politicians at the time (this applies to the US as well, I guess) were willing do to almost anything to stop the collapse, even if that meant hurting the Euro in the long term. The (somewhat hypothetical) alternative could have been a lot worse.

tomp 12y ago

> Germany is one of the riches countries on this planet. A lot of that riches comes from the fact that EUR is a common currency both of economically successful countries like Germany and of economically weak countries like Greece. That makes the currency artificially undervalued, which boosts German exports and hurts Greek imports, making Germany more competitive and Greece less competitive (longer comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8954377 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8954377). I think it's time Germany admits to that and pays its dues, by which I mean help finance the rest of EU (via a fiscal union).

sfk 12y ago
This is utterly ridiculous. West Germany was FAR better off economically when the D-Mark was strong.
- teamhappy 12y ago
  You're assuming that the D-Mark would be as strong (or possibly even stronger) as it was back then today. Which is a bold assumption. As a matter of fact, nobody (apart from some utterly ridiculous right-wing politicians) even considerers this an option.
- dash2 12y ago
  If you literally mean that Germany was richer in the time before the introduction of the Euro, then simple GDP statistics show otherwise - not surprisingly, as it was a long time ago. If you mean the Euro was bad for the German economy, I wonder why you think that? By removing exchange rate risk, the Euro has made it easier for German businesses to sell to other Eurozone countries.
teamhappy 12y ago
I'm not entirely sure what it is you're suggesting. The EU is designed to make us (Germany, France, etc.) more competitive. That unfortunately also means that countries like Greece don't profit as much (or at all, for that matter), but then again, nobody was forced to join to EU. > I think it's time Germany admits to that and pays its dues, by which I mean help finance the rest of EU (via a fiscal union). Do you really think we don't know what we're doing? You say we need to "pay our dues". You do realize we're talking about the fact that Greece can't pay it's dues, yes? As far as help financing the rest of the EU goes, keep on dreaming. There is no way any german is going to vote for that given that we have plenty of kids growing up below the poverty line.

charonn0 12y ago

I expected that Germans might be sympathetic to a country whose economically struggling population are turning, in electorally significant numbers, to Fascism.

chckn 12y ago
I expect that people do not judge Germans by one German's opinion.

jklowden 12y ago

> if he actually believes he can control the fate of his country even so slightly, I'm afraid he's delusional He's the elected leader of sovereign nation. If you don't think repudiating the debt is an option (good or bad), I'm afraid he's not the delusional one. If that's not "control" of the fate of the country, I don't know what is.

teamhappy 12y ago
Oh come on. "Elected leader of a sovereign nation". You gotta be kidding me. Merkel is the elected leader of a sovereign nation significantly more powerful than Greece will ever be, and yet, Obama is listening to her phone calls and she can't do anything about it. One of the first things he did was meet with officials from other EU countries, no? Concluding that he's not gonna do anything for the time being. Go figure.

smacktoward 12y ago

> Germany is one of the riches countries on this planet. We will do almost anything to keep it that way. If the only practical effect of European union will be to enrich Germany at the expense of its neighbors, European union will fail, and rightly so. > I appreciate that he needs to sell his own agency to his people, but if he actually believes he can control the fate of his country even so slightly, I'm afraid he's delusional. Just a suggestion: before Germans start telling other people to get over the idea of having any control over their own affairs, it would probably be wise to reflect on how well that message went over the last two times they tried it.

teamhappy 12y ago
> Just a suggestion: before Germans start telling other people to get over the idea of having any control over their own affairs, it would probably be wise to reflect on how well that message went over the last two times they tried it. You should have gone with how we suck up the the US all the time; that would have been a way better put down. Given what went on in Greece over the last couple of years, I'd recommend you drop the nazi references for the time being.
- anextio 12y ago
  Indeed. There are many better examples of post-war soft power projection through economic meddling that this case could be compared to. Not the nazis. They are far on the other side of the economic meddling coin.
peterfirefly 12y ago
If you really mean "the last two times" and not "the last time", you should probably read some history books that were not meant for school children.

lithander 12y ago

You're cynical. The tone of the open letter is nothing compared to the tone of your comment. If you truely believe that we Europeans aren't living in a democracy anymore and that politics shouldn't be about the peoples wellbeing in the first place then stop worrying about PEGIDA or Dschungelcamp and do something about that. You stance of "this is how the world works and I'm lucky to be on the winning team" is both short sighted and highly egoistic. I would be ashamed if many of our "fellow germans" would agree with your point of view.

peterfirefly 12y ago
I am not worried about PEGIDA. I am worried about the mischaracterisations of PEGIDA. I am also /very/ worried about Antifa.
- eli_gottlieb 12y ago
  Why are you more worried about anti-fascists than about fascists?
  - peterfirefly 12y ago
    Because the "anti"-fascists are fascists and PEGIDA are anti-fascists. Their anti-fascism is one of the reasons why they are against Islam -- anyone who is against suppresion, violence, and fascism ought to be against Islam, just as they should be against Communism and Nazism.
    - eli_gottlieb 12y ago
      I don't think you can call PEGIDA antifascists, since they're, well, far-right nationalists who hate immigrants and have violent tendencies. Just because the Antifa organization holds an intellectually inconsistent position doesn't mean the reverse position from Antifa is actually correct.