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How about right here at HN? Earlier this week someone commented on using shame as a tool for "positive change". I once wrote a comment on a thread here on HN

How about right here at HN? Earlier this week someone commented on using shame as a tool for "positive change". I once wrote a comment on a thread here on HN but after considering past reactions of HN of similar comments, I didn't bother submitting the comment and closed the tab instead. I don't necessarily care about karma but I use it as a way to figure out what kind of stuff the community wants to hears from me. When I get downvoted I make a mental note to keep such opinions to myself next time. I rather have some of my comments be visible than have them greyed out or dead.

smt88 12y ago
Shame can be (and has been) a tool for positive change. I grew up in the South. Many of my peers never heard racist comments until they were adults, even though many adults in our community were deeply racist. That made my generation far less racist than older ones. So why were the racists so quiet? Because it stopped being socially acceptable to be racist. Those people were ashamed of publicly stating their views. Racism become something you might believe, but didn't say to a child. It's not a pleasant tool, and it's often abused, but there are definitely shades of gray there.
- xtrumanx 12y ago
  One reason I don't like that idea is that it creates hypocrites. I'd rather get thing like that out in the open since it may even be possible to convince some of those people that their beliefs are wrong but if you shame them into silence, you may not even have the chance to identify them.
  - angersock 12y ago
    "you may not even have the chance to identify them." And if so, why is that a problem? If you never knew, why would it bother you?
    - Dylan16807 12y ago
      Because if they're specifically hiding their racism in certain contexts they are probably still making harmful actions elsewhere.
      - mkr-hn 12y ago
        For example, donating to a hate-driven campaign to take fundamental rights away from people by popular vote. They could very easily say they donated from a basis different from the hateful people and avoid losing friends over a misunderstanding.
      - angersock 12y ago
        Everybody makes harmful actions every week, some minor some not. You should be able to identify them by a pattern of harmful actions. If you haven't observed their harmful actions or those supposed actions' effects, you're acting irrationally and going on witchhunts.
        Dylan16807 12y ago
        >You should be able to identify them by a pattern of harmful actions. Not if they are specifically hiding those actions from people that would recognize them as harmful. >If you haven't observed their harmful actions or those supposed actions' effects, you're acting irrationally and going on witchhunts. I don't know why you're making a narrative about witch hunts. The original statement was that it's bad when people keep biases but don't discuss them anywhere they might be corrected. Denouncing hiding is pretty much the opposite of going on a witch hunt.
        angersock 12y ago
        It's the part where, having not seen public evidence of the behavior, you are still concerned that somewhere at midnight vigils and seances they are practicing their evil racist ways, and that "Something be done!". Racism in and of itself is a quirk, and if you can't prove that others are actually harming people with it, you shouldn't begrudge other people their opinions--even if you don't like them.

smt88 12y ago

Shame can be (and has been) a tool for positive change. I grew up in the South. Many of my peers never heard racist comments until they were adults, even though many adults in our community were deeply racist. That made my generation far less racist than older ones. So why were the racists so quiet? Because it stopped being socially acceptable to be racist. Those people were ashamed of publicly stating their views. Racism become something you might believe, but didn't say to a child. It's not a pleasant tool, and it's often abused, but there are definitely shades of gray there.

xtrumanx 12y ago
One reason I don't like that idea is that it creates hypocrites. I'd rather get thing like that out in the open since it may even be possible to convince some of those people that their beliefs are wrong but if you shame them into silence, you may not even have the chance to identify them.
- angersock 12y ago
  "you may not even have the chance to identify them." And if so, why is that a problem? If you never knew, why would it bother you?
  - Dylan16807 12y ago
    Because if they're specifically hiding their racism in certain contexts they are probably still making harmful actions elsewhere.
    - mkr-hn 12y ago
      For example, donating to a hate-driven campaign to take fundamental rights away from people by popular vote. They could very easily say they donated from a basis different from the hateful people and avoid losing friends over a misunderstanding.
    - angersock 12y ago
      Everybody makes harmful actions every week, some minor some not. You should be able to identify them by a pattern of harmful actions. If you haven't observed their harmful actions or those supposed actions' effects, you're acting irrationally and going on witchhunts.
      - Dylan16807 12y ago
        >You should be able to identify them by a pattern of harmful actions. Not if they are specifically hiding those actions from people that would recognize them as harmful. >If you haven't observed their harmful actions or those supposed actions' effects, you're acting irrationally and going on witchhunts. I don't know why you're making a narrative about witch hunts. The original statement was that it's bad when people keep biases but don't discuss them anywhere they might be corrected. Denouncing hiding is pretty much the opposite of going on a witch hunt.
        angersock 12y ago
        It's the part where, having not seen public evidence of the behavior, you are still concerned that somewhere at midnight vigils and seances they are practicing their evil racist ways, and that "Something be done!". Racism in and of itself is a quirk, and if you can't prove that others are actually harming people with it, you shouldn't begrudge other people their opinions--even if you don't like them.