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I don't think queer-exclusive spaces should exist, and I'm queer, and extremely left wing. That opinion is unpopular in queer circles. The flak I cop for that

by tomlock 12y ago

I don't think queer-exclusive spaces should exist, and I'm queer, and extremely left wing. That opinion is unpopular in queer circles. The flak I cop for that is nothing compared to the very real, quantified consequences for women trying to enter tech, or who are already in it. I think we should upvote more articles about that and less articles about this.

Pxtl 12y ago
Well said. I find the internet social justice movement intensely annoying. They are, to be blunt, assholes. But unfortunately, they're also right more often than not. And dwelling on how disgustingly annoying the online social justice movement is instead of solving its problems is one facet of geek culture that is just somewhat pathetic.
- vezzy-fnord 12y ago
  You admit that the "online social justice movement" is dysfunctional, yet you put the onus on so-called "geek culture" to fix their problems for them? Why "geek culture" in particular, and is a notable subset of it already not involved with the former movement?
  - Dylan16807 12y ago
    >onus on so-called "geek culture" to fix their problems for them What? That comment doesn't say anything even resembling that.
    - graeme 12y ago
      The OP used a poor pronoun reference: >dwelling on how disgustingly annoying the online social justice movement is instead of solving its problems is one facet of geek culture It's not clear whether the author means "its" to refer to SJW or geek culture's problems. I believe the author meant geek culture should fix its own problems, but it's a reasonable misinterpretation to have read that sentence as referring to SJW's problems. That's where the parent comment was coming from.
- kelnos 12y ago
  And dwelling on how disgustingly annoying the online social justice movement is instead of solving its problems is one facet of geek culture that is just somewhat pathetic. I think the difference here is that many geeks are of the mindset that it should be "easy" for them to help, both in action and emotionally. Constantly being berated for "not helping exactly the right way" puts people in a foul mood. The bottom line is that there aren't many easy-to-see benefits for non-oppressed allies. Basically many geeks see it as the less-privileged asking them for help, with nothing really in it for them except constantly being taken to task for not being immediately perfectly sensitive to all the issues women and people of color face. It's a little disingenuous to both vehemently assume, expect, and require that sensitivity while at the same time saying "there's no way you can possibly understand the struggles we face". Can't have it both ways.
graeme 12y ago
Your point is good, but I think you've missed the argument. The author wasn't saying that intersectionalism produces worse injustices than other parts of society. The author was saying that intersectionalism marginalises itself and drives away allies by focussing on orthodoxy and using shame as a tool to change habits of speech. This ties into the larger issues of gender reform in tech. A left wing that didn't actively repel those who speak slightly differently would be in a stronger position to change society.
- kelnos 12y ago
  And that's it, exactly. As much as it would be nice if it weren't necessary, the less-privileged need allies in the form of the privileged to further the social justice movement. The tactics in place in many cases serve to drive away potential allies. You can bitch and moan about potential allies having it easy or having a "less difficult struggle", but the end result is the same: fewer allies.

by tomlock 12y ago

Pxtl 12y ago

Well said. I find the internet social justice movement intensely annoying. They are, to be blunt, assholes. But unfortunately, they're also right more often than not. And dwelling on how disgustingly annoying the online social justice movement is instead of solving its problems is one facet of geek culture that is just somewhat pathetic.

vezzy-fnord 12y ago
You admit that the "online social justice movement" is dysfunctional, yet you put the onus on so-called "geek culture" to fix their problems for them? Why "geek culture" in particular, and is a notable subset of it already not involved with the former movement?
- Dylan16807 12y ago
  >onus on so-called "geek culture" to fix their problems for them What? That comment doesn't say anything even resembling that.
  - graeme 12y ago
    The OP used a poor pronoun reference: >dwelling on how disgustingly annoying the online social justice movement is instead of solving its problems is one facet of geek culture It's not clear whether the author means "its" to refer to SJW or geek culture's problems. I believe the author meant geek culture should fix its own problems, but it's a reasonable misinterpretation to have read that sentence as referring to SJW's problems. That's where the parent comment was coming from.
kelnos 12y ago
And dwelling on how disgustingly annoying the online social justice movement is instead of solving its problems is one facet of geek culture that is just somewhat pathetic. I think the difference here is that many geeks are of the mindset that it should be "easy" for them to help, both in action and emotionally. Constantly being berated for "not helping exactly the right way" puts people in a foul mood. The bottom line is that there aren't many easy-to-see benefits for non-oppressed allies. Basically many geeks see it as the less-privileged asking them for help, with nothing really in it for them except constantly being taken to task for not being immediately perfectly sensitive to all the issues women and people of color face. It's a little disingenuous to both vehemently assume, expect, and require that sensitivity while at the same time saying "there's no way you can possibly understand the struggles we face". Can't have it both ways.

graeme 12y ago

Your point is good, but I think you've missed the argument. The author wasn't saying that intersectionalism produces worse injustices than other parts of society. The author was saying that intersectionalism marginalises itself and drives away allies by focussing on orthodoxy and using shame as a tool to change habits of speech. This ties into the larger issues of gender reform in tech. A left wing that didn't actively repel those who speak slightly differently would be in a stronger position to change society.

kelnos 12y ago
And that's it, exactly. As much as it would be nice if it weren't necessary, the less-privileged need allies in the form of the privileged to further the social justice movement. The tactics in place in many cases serve to drive away potential allies. You can bitch and moan about potential allies having it easy or having a "less difficult struggle", but the end result is the same: fewer allies.