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I'm in the "nothing to hide" camp, and I'm not even 25. Unlike many, I don't see lack of privacy as a compromise, nor do I see it as a security feature (i.e.,

I'm in the "nothing to hide" camp, and I'm not even 25. Unlike many, I don't see lack of privacy as a compromise, nor do I see it as a security feature (i.e., against terrorism). Unlike many, I do understand the sensitivity of meta data and social graphs, and I deeply care about it. It is obvious to me that transparency has all the benefits over privacy. It's a simpler way to think about and understand the world, it's easier to implement and maintain, and it's much more efficient. Transparency is the way it should be. Privacy is just a band-aid, a patch, a set of arbitrary workarounds that in no way fights the underlying problems, if any there are. If anything, privacy only contributes to the increasing reliance on privacy that's expected of us. By keeping information secret, you encourage others to think it should be, and some people eventually are lead to believe that some things should inherently be secretive, without understanding why that is. Do you really want to live in a world where you must constantly worry about your every steps, your every words, your every interactions? Do you believe it is sustainable to build systems that are 100 times more complex and inefficient as they should be just because you want to remain anonymous? Do you embrace the fact that people who are better manipulators/liers will always have an edge in a society that encourages privacy, since they can control what they decide to show the world? Do you realize that a system that's based on the assumption that secrets are kept secrets is much more fragile than one that's not, as secrets are becoming increasingly more difficult to keep? Do you not realize how much value and opportunities we miss now that people were tricked into believing that privacy is necessary? Bitcoin, Google Glass, geo-tracking anything, health record analysis, etc. I don't want to hide anymore. I don't want to compete with liers, or be tricked by them. I don't want to password-protect all the things. I don't want to browse behind 7 proxies. I don't want to be explicit about everything that could be implicitly inferred through tracking. I don't want to keep secrets anymore. Fortunately, I soon won't have to. Transparency will thrive, and privacy will die. My only worry is, how far and deep will people like you go into making society rely on and expect privacy. The deeper you go, the more brutal the transition will be the day the choice is no longer yours.

icebraining 12y ago
Assuming that transparency will end lies and manipulations is just fanciful. That said, I don't expect our privacy will last, either. Like you said, efficiency - the current economic fetish - will be used as an excuse to kill it soon enough. For some, that is. Like free markets, transparency will be forced on the poor and avoided by the rich, eliminating most of the potential benefits it could have brought.
Steuard 12y ago
I'm not entirely averse to the world you describe, and you may be right that it's in our future no matter what we choose today. But... Citizens of oppressive governments are in very real danger if they have no privacy. When the secret police are listening in to everything you say and ready to whisk you away at whim, there can be no dissent nor hope of reform. Gay children of highly conservative parents are in very real danger if they have no privacy. Suicide rates in that and similar demographics are disturbingly high, and today many get through simply by hiding their identity until they're out on their own. That's not an option in your world. Anyone with minority views on contentious issues relative to their neighbors or co-workers is at risk if they have no privacy. Sometimes the most effective solution when you've got to get along with other people is just to stay silent. (I live in a small, rural town, but my values are closer to those of my friends in places like San Francisco. A whole lot of people here would be suspicious or hostile if they knew how much our worldviews differ.) I could go on. But in general, the people who most need privacy are the ones who are most different from the people around them. It's much easier to set privacy aside when you're surrounded by people who are already happy to accept you for who you are. Maybe there's another stable society to be found with no privacy at all, as you envision, but the road from here to there is steep, and rough, and has dizzying cliffs on either side.
c1sc0 12y ago
Your trust in transparency ultimately boils down to trust in people & I, for one, sure as hell do not trust people, especially people in power.
quesera 12y ago
> Fortunately, I soon won't have to. Transparency will thrive, and privacy will die. Privacy doesn't make the world perfect, but neither would transparency. I hate to accuse anyone of privileged naivety, but if you believe that the elimination of privacy would be a net improvement for the world, then you must also: - be in a position of social power, and confident in your ability to remain there, or - hold no important opinions that diverge from the orthodoxy or the power structure that upholds it AND - have no knowledge of the history of marginalized groups, the reasons for their marginalization, or the repercussions thereof, or - believe we already live in, or are moving inexorably toward, a eutopian global kumbaya where everyone just gets along, because enlightenment I share your dislike for the effort that goes into maintaining privacy. But I know it's important -- vital, even -- because the world is a complicated place. More so for some than others.
- jsprogrammer 12y ago
  Those in positions of social power thrive on secrecy. It's how they are able to maintain that power. So, yes, maybe transparency will alter the lives of those with immense social power (and perhaps in ways those people would not want), but it will likely allow everyone else to benefit from reduced control by elites. The real lesson from history seems to be that information is power and secret information even more. Elites (what you describe as those with social power) have used their secrets to repress everyone else for millennia (and likely longer than that).
spdustin 12y ago
Would you mind terribly posting your current address and social security number by reply to this comment? I'm certain there are many of us who would responsibly use that information to learn more about you, get to know you better, and provide you with a higher quality discourse here on HN as a result of your generous transparency.
guyzmo 12y ago
I'm not going to troll about all that, but even though I agree on the general utopia you're describing, let me quote a good friend of mine (who certainly was quoting someone else): It is important to have the right and possibility to be anonymous in a world where that right and possibility is not needed. Because as soon as they are needed, they become vital to be used. I do want to live in a world where we will have no need for privacy, but I do not want to drop my right for privacy because of how that world works. This why I call the world you're describing by saying: Transparency will thrive, and privacy will die. My only worry is, how far and deep will people like you go into making society rely on and expect privacy is nothing more than an utopia.

icebraining 12y ago

Assuming that transparency will end lies and manipulations is just fanciful. That said, I don't expect our privacy will last, either. Like you said, efficiency - the current economic fetish - will be used as an excuse to kill it soon enough. For some, that is. Like free markets, transparency will be forced on the poor and avoided by the rich, eliminating most of the potential benefits it could have brought.

Steuard 12y ago

I'm not entirely averse to the world you describe, and you may be right that it's in our future no matter what we choose today. But... Citizens of oppressive governments are in very real danger if they have no privacy. When the secret police are listening in to everything you say and ready to whisk you away at whim, there can be no dissent nor hope of reform. Gay children of highly conservative parents are in very real danger if they have no privacy. Suicide rates in that and similar demographics are disturbingly high, and today many get through simply by hiding their identity until they're out on their own. That's not an option in your world. Anyone with minority views on contentious issues relative to their neighbors or co-workers is at risk if they have no privacy. Sometimes the most effective solution when you've got to get along with other people is just to stay silent. (I live in a small, rural town, but my values are closer to those of my friends in places like San Francisco. A whole lot of people here would be suspicious or hostile if they knew how much our worldviews differ.) I could go on. But in general, the people who most need privacy are the ones who are most different from the people around them. It's much easier to set privacy aside when you're surrounded by people who are already happy to accept you for who you are. Maybe there's another stable society to be found with no privacy at all, as you envision, but the road from here to there is steep, and rough, and has dizzying cliffs on either side.

c1sc0 12y ago

Your trust in transparency ultimately boils down to trust in people & I, for one, sure as hell do not trust people, especially people in power.

quesera 12y ago

> Fortunately, I soon won't have to. Transparency will thrive, and privacy will die. Privacy doesn't make the world perfect, but neither would transparency. I hate to accuse anyone of privileged naivety, but if you believe that the elimination of privacy would be a net improvement for the world, then you must also: - be in a position of social power, and confident in your ability to remain there, or - hold no important opinions that diverge from the orthodoxy or the power structure that upholds it AND - have no knowledge of the history of marginalized groups, the reasons for their marginalization, or the repercussions thereof, or - believe we already live in, or are moving inexorably toward, a eutopian global kumbaya where everyone just gets along, because enlightenment I share your dislike for the effort that goes into maintaining privacy. But I know it's important -- vital, even -- because the world is a complicated place. More so for some than others.

jsprogrammer 12y ago
Those in positions of social power thrive on secrecy. It's how they are able to maintain that power. So, yes, maybe transparency will alter the lives of those with immense social power (and perhaps in ways those people would not want), but it will likely allow everyone else to benefit from reduced control by elites. The real lesson from history seems to be that information is power and secret information even more. Elites (what you describe as those with social power) have used their secrets to repress everyone else for millennia (and likely longer than that).

spdustin 12y ago

Would you mind terribly posting your current address and social security number by reply to this comment? I'm certain there are many of us who would responsibly use that information to learn more about you, get to know you better, and provide you with a higher quality discourse here on HN as a result of your generous transparency.

guyzmo 12y ago

I'm not going to troll about all that, but even though I agree on the general utopia you're describing, let me quote a good friend of mine (who certainly was quoting someone else): It is important to have the right and possibility to be anonymous in a world where that right and possibility is not needed. Because as soon as they are needed, they become vital to be used. I do want to live in a world where we will have no need for privacy, but I do not want to drop my right for privacy because of how that world works. This why I call the world you're describing by saying: Transparency will thrive, and privacy will die. My only worry is, how far and deep will people like you go into making society rely on and expect privacy is nothing more than an utopia.