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Coincidentally, I recently meet a group of 5 Iranian women (all here on student visas) while at happy hour in Miami. When I asked if there was any comparable n

Coincidentally, I recently meet a group of 5 Iranian women (all here on student visas) while at happy hour in Miami. When I asked if there was any comparable night life in Iran, I was informed that in Iran nightclubs where men and women to commingle are non-existent and more generally women may not consume alcohol. There is a thriving underground scene of house parties where young men and women interact (and drink socially), but these too are illegal gatherings that are often broken up and lead to multiple arrests. >Declining birth rates, for example, signal a wider acceptance of contraceptives and other forms of family planning I would theorize the declining birth rates is not a signal of a wider sexual revolution, including, the adoption of contraceptives, rather a signal that State suppression of socializing of the sexes is succeeding. This would probably also account for the increase in average age of getting married.

adventured 12y ago
"I would theorize the declining birth rates is not a signal of a wider sexual revolution, including, the adoption of contraceptives, rather a signal that State suppression of socializing of the sexes is succeeding. This would probably also account for the increase in average age of getting married." That conclusion does not follow. The US for example saw a substantial decline in its birth rate over 40-50 years, and it was not due to State suppression of sexuality or socializing. In fact the exact opposite occurred, sexuality was drastically liberalized in the 1960s and 1970s. Women acquired a lot more freedom when it came to divorce, joining the work-force, contraception, and abortion. Divorce rates climbed substantially. I suspect many countries in Europe saw the exact same general trend line as the US during that time.
ars 12y ago
> declining birth rates ... suppression of socializing of the sexes I can see why you would think that, but it's actually the opposite. The sexes do not need to socialize to have children - instead they marry. It's really the other way around: Once you have contraception, you can have socialization, and a low birth rate. So easy socialization is an indicator, not a cause.
discodave 12y ago
Errr... a high birth rate is usually due to women having multiple children. i.e. they are married. Also, people marrying late is not usually due to 'suppression of socializing of the sexes'... in western countries the opposite effect has been seen. If I were to follow the logic of your argument then we should expect western countries where teenagers mingle freely to have people marrying early... that is clearly not the case.
- will_brown 12y ago
  > If I were to follow the logic of your argument then we should expect western countries where teenagers mingle freely to have people marrying early... that is clearly not the case. That is not a logical extension of my position. Logic: if the government does not allow commingling of the sexes, then people will get married at an older age (if p, then q) You are extending that to: The US government does not prohibit commingling of sexes, therefore we should expect people getting married earlier (not P, therefore not q) That is a logical fallacy. I think we can both agree the US average age of marriage is increasing, and certainly it can be for different reasons. To follow my argument is very easy, there can be other explanations for decreased birthrates and increased average age of marriage, than a sexual revolution, especially if the government is prohibiting men and women from socializing (something I don't think other western countries ever did)

adventured 12y ago

"I would theorize the declining birth rates is not a signal of a wider sexual revolution, including, the adoption of contraceptives, rather a signal that State suppression of socializing of the sexes is succeeding. This would probably also account for the increase in average age of getting married." That conclusion does not follow. The US for example saw a substantial decline in its birth rate over 40-50 years, and it was not due to State suppression of sexuality or socializing. In fact the exact opposite occurred, sexuality was drastically liberalized in the 1960s and 1970s. Women acquired a lot more freedom when it came to divorce, joining the work-force, contraception, and abortion. Divorce rates climbed substantially. I suspect many countries in Europe saw the exact same general trend line as the US during that time.

ars 12y ago

> declining birth rates ... suppression of socializing of the sexes I can see why you would think that, but it's actually the opposite. The sexes do not need to socialize to have children - instead they marry. It's really the other way around: Once you have contraception, you can have socialization, and a low birth rate. So easy socialization is an indicator, not a cause.

discodave 12y ago

Errr... a high birth rate is usually due to women having multiple children. i.e. they are married. Also, people marrying late is not usually due to 'suppression of socializing of the sexes'... in western countries the opposite effect has been seen. If I were to follow the logic of your argument then we should expect western countries where teenagers mingle freely to have people marrying early... that is clearly not the case.

will_brown 12y ago
> If I were to follow the logic of your argument then we should expect western countries where teenagers mingle freely to have people marrying early... that is clearly not the case. That is not a logical extension of my position. Logic: if the government does not allow commingling of the sexes, then people will get married at an older age (if p, then q) You are extending that to: The US government does not prohibit commingling of sexes, therefore we should expect people getting married earlier (not P, therefore not q) That is a logical fallacy. I think we can both agree the US average age of marriage is increasing, and certainly it can be for different reasons. To follow my argument is very easy, there can be other explanations for decreased birthrates and increased average age of marriage, than a sexual revolution, especially if the government is prohibiting men and women from socializing (something I don't think other western countries ever did)