8 ms·

I still find the supposition that Facebook was supposed to defy a court order hilarious. Yes, I understand it's a court order from Turkey, not America, but you

jsprogrammer 12y ago
Does Facebook have a physical presence in Turkey?
- 100timesthis 12y ago
  it seems they don't have offices in Turkey[1] [1] https://www.facebook.com/careers#locations https://www.facebook.com/careers#locations
- gtirloni 12y ago
  They have a .tr domain but I doubt they incorporated there. Facebook Inc. Buyukdere Cad. Maya Akar Center No:100-102 B Blok K:18 Esentepe Istanbul, Turkey tolga.ismen@ismen.av.tr +90-212-2726364 +90-212-2726365
hnnewguy 12y ago
>I still find the supposition that Facebook was supposed to defy a court order hilarious. For me at least: it's the idea of making a public pronouncement that you support some political view (because that's easy). Then you do something that, at least on the face of it, goes against that position when there could be business repercussions (because that's hard). Why not just keep your mouth shut?
- quaunaut 12y ago
  Because this is the real world, and no matter what the internet tells you, nuance matters. I don't like Mark Zuckerberg. I think his business practices regularly register as complete bullshit, and furthermore I can't quite tell what the hell they spend their time doing because since about 2009 Facebook has consistently become more and more of something I don't want anything to do with. But there is not one bit of me that doesn't believe Mark really does support free speech everywhere. He didn't have to say that, but he did. He made that effort, even though he knew it opened his flank. And of course he knew that, because he's not a complete idiot. This is the real world. Where while complying with the law, you protest it, because that's how you act in a civilized society.
  - cryoshon 12y ago
    Compliance with protest equals compliance and a certainty that you will keep complying and eventually grow tired of protesting. "How you act in a civilized society" leads to normalization and eventual acceptance of problems caused by compliance.
    - quaunaut 12y ago
      I just don't see how in the face of 2014's continuation of the Civil Rights movement you can say something like that with a straight face.
    - LLWM 12y ago
      They're only "problems" to you because you disagree with the legitimate democratically elected government of another country.
  - hnnewguy 12y ago
    >Where while complying with the law, you protest it, because that's how you act in a civilized society. Lots of talk in your comment about the "real world", without a hint of irony that our "civilized society" only exists in its current form thanks to revolutions and wars. The idea that protests should only occur within the confines of the law tells me you have a bit to learn about the "real world". >He made that effort I know the Facebook crowd might think so, but saying "Je Suis Charlie" takes effort?
jessaustin 12y ago
...without significant investment that I don't think anyone wants us making after the last couple of times. A service choosing not to censor, and then potentially being censored in turn by ISPs in another nation, could be costly, sure. It wouldn't seem to be in the same ballpark as a military invasion of another nation? (Honestly though, when has a USA military invasion ever actually been about enforcing ideals?) When this issue was discussed yesterday, I pointed out that it's not Zuck's actions that surprise us, because money. Rather, we're surprised by what he says while taking those actions. It's incongruous to appropriate the rhetoric of freedom while happily making money undermining freedom.
- roc 12y ago
  Once you've accepted the conceit that Facebook will say and do whatever has the best return, it's hardly incongruous for Facebook to hitch a ride on a free, positive PR train. The only incongruity is on the part of people who believed Zuck when they have plenty of data that they shouldn't.
  - davorb 12y ago
    Zuck: Yeah so if you ever need info about anyone at Harvard Zuck: Just ask Zuck: I have over 4,000 emails, pictures, addresses, SNS [Redacted Friend's Name]: What? How'd you manage that one? Zuck: People just submitted it. Zuck: I don't know why. Zuck: They "trust me" Zuck: Dumb fucks
FroshKiller 12y ago
That is a silly comment. Of course you can and often should break laws you don't agree with, even when you're an individual versus a nation. Or would you be fine complying with sharia because some backwater on the other side of the globe said so?
- ivraatiems 12y ago
  Would you be fine with being imprisoned/executed for refusing to comply while residing in said backwater? It's not that complying with the law would be noble or right, but it's not really reasonable to expect everyone in a country to be a martyr.
  - FroshKiller 12y ago
    Yes? I feel like you are missing the point. The Friendship Nine broke a law they disagreed with where they lived, they were in the right, and their convictions are finally about to be overturned more than 50 years later. Do you think they shouldn't have broken a stupid law?
    - ivraatiems 12y ago
      That's apples to oranges to sharia law.
      - FroshKiller 12y ago
        I disagree, and I'm obviously not going to change your mind, so I'd prefer not to argue any further if that's all right with you.
- g8oz 12y ago
  They are only complying within Turkey right? The consequence of not complying with local laws you disagree with is being shut out of many countries and not being a global brand.
  - 12y ago
Zigurd 12y ago
That depends on whether Facebook has significant operations in Turkey. It's not Facebook's job to deny residents of Turkey access to Facebook, or parts of Facebook. It's the Turkish government's job to balkanize the Internet, with all the bad side effects on the tech industry in Turkey, if that is their desire.
wahsd 12y ago
What are you talking about, we love forcing our ideals down other's throats, because it's always easier to criticize and tear down others than to look at the pile of shit behind us.
panarky 12y ago
In the worst case, Turkey could ban Facebook. Would they really do that? It's nowhere near certain. Google left China rather than submit to their censorship regime, and the Chinese market is like 18 Turkeys. And if you do remove content, you can make that action transparent on Chilling Effects[1]. Facebook doesn't do that, either. There are alternatives. And if you decide to build censorship tools to stay in the good graces of the regime, then don't say "I am Charlie" while you're doing it. [1] https://www.chillingeffects.org/ https://www.chillingeffects.org/
- isaacremuant 12y ago
  Most countries, including USA, have "censhorship regimes". They just vary in scope and targeting. Many companies could decide not to operate in USA due to the snooping, gagged court orders, civil rights attacks, selective and repressive law enforcement, etc. I get this is a hard issue to speak in "western" sites because many see it as "us vs them" but let me tell you, I could easily subdivide "us" many times and make your portion "them".
  - vixen99 12y ago
    Which characters' images from history are censored in the West?
    - innguest 12y ago
      It happens all the time with a lot of characters. Most recently, criticism of Chris Kyle (the real life sniper/camper/coward) has been censored on Youtube for offending the sensibilities of pro-war, pro-violence folks.
      - panarky 12y ago
        Citation please.
        innguest 12y ago
blueskin_ 12y ago
> I still find the supposition that Facebook was supposed to defy a court order hilarious. Yes, I understand it's a court order from Turkey, not America, but you can't just flagrantly break the law in other countries simply because yours believes differently. Does Facebook have any offices, servers or employees in Turkey? If not, they aren't required to do a thing. Even if they did, they just don't store that content on those servers (and maybe compartmentalise dealing with such data away from any employees based there) and they're fine. If that wasn't the case, then any random tinpot dictatorship (such as turkey) could make arbitrary things illegal for anyone in the world, and expect compliance from every single person in the world. I'm sure turkey would want anyone in the world they could force to be to be brought under sharia law too, not just facebook. Does that mean we should even if we don't live there and don't visit? I for one, don't think so.
- chc 12y ago
  Really? I would imagine that just serving the content to Turkish visitors would be enough for Turkey to see it as violating the law and put any servers or employees there at risk.
- user_0001 12y ago
  >I'm sure turkey would want anyone in the world they could force to be to be brought under sharia law too, not just facebook lol, what are you talking about? I suggest you remove your head from your arse and read a bit more about Turkey
  - blueskin_ 12y ago
    Majority muslim nation, cult of personality, widespread corruption, oppressive government, evidence of rigged elections, suppression of free speech. Seems clear-cut to me.
    - user_0001 12y ago
      <rolleyes>
    - 12y ago
kyllo 12y ago
It's not so crazy; imagine you're running a business that operates in both the US and an Arab League nation such as Lebanon. The laws of Lebanon require you to observe a boycott of any products and services that originate in or transit through Israel. Meanwhile the laws of the US forbid you from observing the Arab Boycott of Israel. What do you do? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_League_boycott_of_Israel http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_League_boycott_of_Israel
- richardwhiuk 12y ago
  Detect where the traffic comes from and apply the law thusly?
  - kyllo 12y ago
    Unfortunately in this case, that won't work if you're a US corporation because the law applies to US corporations globally, regardless of what country the actual operations take place in. So the US law requires that you disobey the foreign law even in the foreign country.
santacluster 12y ago
I find this argument hilarious, especially in this context. > you can't just flagrantly break the law in other countries simply because yours believes differently Facebook, and many American tech companies like it, have no problem breaking the law in other countries when it suits their bottom line. Primary battlefield: privacy rights. > As much as Americans like to act like it, we can't enforce our ideals around the world Facebook, and many American tech companies like it, enforce their puritan values around the world by fanatically censoring all kinds of harmless content (mostly, "boobies") on their services. These companies are clearly willing and able to make both commercial and ideological choices with complete disregard for local laws and values.
- quaunaut 12y ago
  What country's privacy laws are being broken again? Because I've not heard of it. And your argument about enforcing their values around the world is enforcing THEIR values, not American ones. Yes, their values are influenced by their being American no doubt, but it's facetiously cynical to imply the two are related in any way, shape, or form.
uptown 12y ago
"you can't just flagrantly break the law in other countries simply because yours believes differently." Isn't that Uber's basic approach?
- quaunaut 12y ago
  I personally don't have very much faith in Uber's long term business prospects, but that's all for its own discussion. But this is just one of many reasons I do think that way.
JoshTriplett 12y ago
> Yes, I understand it's a court order from Turkey, not America, but you can't just flagrantly break the law in other countries simply because yours believes differently. Yes, you absolutely can. Jurisdiction: As long as you're following the laws of your own country, and you don't plan to live in, visit, or do business in some other country, you have no obligation whatsoever to respect that country's laws. In this case, it sounds like Facebook cares about doing business in Turkey (specifically, continuing to reach the citizens of Turkey).
dreamweapon 12y ago
I still find the supposition that Facebook was supposed to defy a court order hilarious. Yes, I understand it's a court order from Turkey, not America, but you can't just flagrantly break the law in other countries simply because yours believes differently. I think you're missing a major point: unless FB has something like a CDN physically located inside of Turkey -- or has some other corporate presence there -- then it is under no legal obligation to comply with its laws (or court orders) whatsoever. The reality is that FB is complying with the Turkish government's requests for no other reason than that it chooses to, because it considers the (perceived) business advantages to be more important than the social and human costs of doing so.

jsprogrammer 12y ago

Does Facebook have a physical presence in Turkey?

100timesthis 12y ago
it seems they don't have offices in Turkey[1] [1] https://www.facebook.com/careers#locations https://www.facebook.com/careers#locations
gtirloni 12y ago
They have a .tr domain but I doubt they incorporated there. Facebook Inc. Buyukdere Cad. Maya Akar Center No:100-102 B Blok K:18 Esentepe Istanbul, Turkey tolga.ismen@ismen.av.tr +90-212-2726364 +90-212-2726365

hnnewguy 12y ago

>I still find the supposition that Facebook was supposed to defy a court order hilarious. For me at least: it's the idea of making a public pronouncement that you support some political view (because that's easy). Then you do something that, at least on the face of it, goes against that position when there could be business repercussions (because that's hard). Why not just keep your mouth shut?

quaunaut 12y ago
Because this is the real world, and no matter what the internet tells you, nuance matters. I don't like Mark Zuckerberg. I think his business practices regularly register as complete bullshit, and furthermore I can't quite tell what the hell they spend their time doing because since about 2009 Facebook has consistently become more and more of something I don't want anything to do with. But there is not one bit of me that doesn't believe Mark really does support free speech everywhere. He didn't have to say that, but he did. He made that effort, even though he knew it opened his flank. And of course he knew that, because he's not a complete idiot. This is the real world. Where while complying with the law, you protest it, because that's how you act in a civilized society.
- cryoshon 12y ago
  Compliance with protest equals compliance and a certainty that you will keep complying and eventually grow tired of protesting. "How you act in a civilized society" leads to normalization and eventual acceptance of problems caused by compliance.
  - quaunaut 12y ago
    I just don't see how in the face of 2014's continuation of the Civil Rights movement you can say something like that with a straight face.
  - LLWM 12y ago
    They're only "problems" to you because you disagree with the legitimate democratically elected government of another country.
- hnnewguy 12y ago
  >Where while complying with the law, you protest it, because that's how you act in a civilized society. Lots of talk in your comment about the "real world", without a hint of irony that our "civilized society" only exists in its current form thanks to revolutions and wars. The idea that protests should only occur within the confines of the law tells me you have a bit to learn about the "real world". >He made that effort I know the Facebook crowd might think so, but saying "Je Suis Charlie" takes effort?

jessaustin 12y ago

...without significant investment that I don't think anyone wants us making after the last couple of times. A service choosing not to censor, and then potentially being censored in turn by ISPs in another nation, could be costly, sure. It wouldn't seem to be in the same ballpark as a military invasion of another nation? (Honestly though, when has a USA military invasion ever actually been about enforcing ideals?) When this issue was discussed yesterday, I pointed out that it's not Zuck's actions that surprise us, because money. Rather, we're surprised by what he says while taking those actions. It's incongruous to appropriate the rhetoric of freedom while happily making money undermining freedom.

roc 12y ago
Once you've accepted the conceit that Facebook will say and do whatever has the best return, it's hardly incongruous for Facebook to hitch a ride on a free, positive PR train. The only incongruity is on the part of people who believed Zuck when they have plenty of data that they shouldn't.
- davorb 12y ago
  Zuck: Yeah so if you ever need info about anyone at Harvard Zuck: Just ask Zuck: I have over 4,000 emails, pictures, addresses, SNS [Redacted Friend's Name]: What? How'd you manage that one? Zuck: People just submitted it. Zuck: I don't know why. Zuck: They "trust me" Zuck: Dumb fucks

FroshKiller 12y ago

That is a silly comment. Of course you can and often should break laws you don't agree with, even when you're an individual versus a nation. Or would you be fine complying with sharia because some backwater on the other side of the globe said so?

ivraatiems 12y ago
Would you be fine with being imprisoned/executed for refusing to comply while residing in said backwater? It's not that complying with the law would be noble or right, but it's not really reasonable to expect everyone in a country to be a martyr.
- FroshKiller 12y ago
  Yes? I feel like you are missing the point. The Friendship Nine broke a law they disagreed with where they lived, they were in the right, and their convictions are finally about to be overturned more than 50 years later. Do you think they shouldn't have broken a stupid law?
  - ivraatiems 12y ago
    That's apples to oranges to sharia law.
    - FroshKiller 12y ago
      I disagree, and I'm obviously not going to change your mind, so I'd prefer not to argue any further if that's all right with you.
g8oz 12y ago
They are only complying within Turkey right? The consequence of not complying with local laws you disagree with is being shut out of many countries and not being a global brand.
- 12y ago

Zigurd 12y ago

That depends on whether Facebook has significant operations in Turkey. It's not Facebook's job to deny residents of Turkey access to Facebook, or parts of Facebook. It's the Turkish government's job to balkanize the Internet, with all the bad side effects on the tech industry in Turkey, if that is their desire.

wahsd 12y ago

What are you talking about, we love forcing our ideals down other's throats, because it's always easier to criticize and tear down others than to look at the pile of shit behind us.

panarky 12y ago

In the worst case, Turkey could ban Facebook. Would they really do that? It's nowhere near certain. Google left China rather than submit to their censorship regime, and the Chinese market is like 18 Turkeys. And if you do remove content, you can make that action transparent on Chilling Effects[1]. Facebook doesn't do that, either. There are alternatives. And if you decide to build censorship tools to stay in the good graces of the regime, then don't say "I am Charlie" while you're doing it. [1] https://www.chillingeffects.org/ https://www.chillingeffects.org/

isaacremuant 12y ago
Most countries, including USA, have "censhorship regimes". They just vary in scope and targeting. Many companies could decide not to operate in USA due to the snooping, gagged court orders, civil rights attacks, selective and repressive law enforcement, etc. I get this is a hard issue to speak in "western" sites because many see it as "us vs them" but let me tell you, I could easily subdivide "us" many times and make your portion "them".
- vixen99 12y ago
  Which characters' images from history are censored in the West?
  - innguest 12y ago
    It happens all the time with a lot of characters. Most recently, criticism of Chris Kyle (the real life sniper/camper/coward) has been censored on Youtube for offending the sensibilities of pro-war, pro-violence folks.
    - panarky 12y ago
      Citation please.
      - innguest 12y ago

blueskin_ 12y ago

> I still find the supposition that Facebook was supposed to defy a court order hilarious. Yes, I understand it's a court order from Turkey, not America, but you can't just flagrantly break the law in other countries simply because yours believes differently. Does Facebook have any offices, servers or employees in Turkey? If not, they aren't required to do a thing. Even if they did, they just don't store that content on those servers (and maybe compartmentalise dealing with such data away from any employees based there) and they're fine. If that wasn't the case, then any random tinpot dictatorship (such as turkey) could make arbitrary things illegal for anyone in the world, and expect compliance from every single person in the world. I'm sure turkey would want anyone in the world they could force to be to be brought under sharia law too, not just facebook. Does that mean we should even if we don't live there and don't visit? I for one, don't think so.

chc 12y ago
Really? I would imagine that just serving the content to Turkish visitors would be enough for Turkey to see it as violating the law and put any servers or employees there at risk.
user_0001 12y ago
>I'm sure turkey would want anyone in the world they could force to be to be brought under sharia law too, not just facebook lol, what are you talking about? I suggest you remove your head from your arse and read a bit more about Turkey
- blueskin_ 12y ago
  Majority muslim nation, cult of personality, widespread corruption, oppressive government, evidence of rigged elections, suppression of free speech. Seems clear-cut to me.
  - user_0001 12y ago
    <rolleyes>
  - 12y ago

kyllo 12y ago

It's not so crazy; imagine you're running a business that operates in both the US and an Arab League nation such as Lebanon. The laws of Lebanon require you to observe a boycott of any products and services that originate in or transit through Israel. Meanwhile the laws of the US forbid you from observing the Arab Boycott of Israel. What do you do? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_League_boycott_of_Israel http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_League_boycott_of_Israel

richardwhiuk 12y ago
Detect where the traffic comes from and apply the law thusly?
- kyllo 12y ago
  Unfortunately in this case, that won't work if you're a US corporation because the law applies to US corporations globally, regardless of what country the actual operations take place in. So the US law requires that you disobey the foreign law even in the foreign country.

santacluster 12y ago

I find this argument hilarious, especially in this context. > you can't just flagrantly break the law in other countries simply because yours believes differently Facebook, and many American tech companies like it, have no problem breaking the law in other countries when it suits their bottom line. Primary battlefield: privacy rights. > As much as Americans like to act like it, we can't enforce our ideals around the world Facebook, and many American tech companies like it, enforce their puritan values around the world by fanatically censoring all kinds of harmless content (mostly, "boobies") on their services. These companies are clearly willing and able to make both commercial and ideological choices with complete disregard for local laws and values.

quaunaut 12y ago
What country's privacy laws are being broken again? Because I've not heard of it. And your argument about enforcing their values around the world is enforcing THEIR values, not American ones. Yes, their values are influenced by their being American no doubt, but it's facetiously cynical to imply the two are related in any way, shape, or form.

uptown 12y ago

"you can't just flagrantly break the law in other countries simply because yours believes differently." Isn't that Uber's basic approach?

quaunaut 12y ago
I personally don't have very much faith in Uber's long term business prospects, but that's all for its own discussion. But this is just one of many reasons I do think that way.

JoshTriplett 12y ago

> Yes, I understand it's a court order from Turkey, not America, but you can't just flagrantly break the law in other countries simply because yours believes differently. Yes, you absolutely can. Jurisdiction: As long as you're following the laws of your own country, and you don't plan to live in, visit, or do business in some other country, you have no obligation whatsoever to respect that country's laws. In this case, it sounds like Facebook cares about doing business in Turkey (specifically, continuing to reach the citizens of Turkey).

dreamweapon 12y ago

I still find the supposition that Facebook was supposed to defy a court order hilarious. Yes, I understand it's a court order from Turkey, not America, but you can't just flagrantly break the law in other countries simply because yours believes differently. I think you're missing a major point: unless FB has something like a CDN physically located inside of Turkey -- or has some other corporate presence there -- then it is under no legal obligation to comply with its laws (or court orders) whatsoever. The reality is that FB is complying with the Turkish government's requests for no other reason than that it chooses to, because it considers the (perceived) business advantages to be more important than the social and human costs of doing so.