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I don't get it.. What's the point? How hard is opening a classic lock with a key? It's like a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.. You can easily imagine

I don't get it.. What's the point? How hard is opening a classic lock with a key? It's like a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.. You can easily imagine things going wrong like unreliability, dead phone or abuse of the "give access via email or SMS" feature

smackfu 12y ago
It's virtualizing the key, which lets you do some more fancy stuff than a physical key. Namely revoking and adding access without requiring key duplication or changing the locks.
ics 12y ago
> You can also use email or SMS to give access to a particular lock, so your friends and family can always get in without needing a key. Have a babysitter or a cleaner who comes by regularly? You’ll soon be able to give permission to individuals for specific portions of the day. From the article. Particularly useful for: AirBnB hosts, people with roommates, friends/family visiting, etc.
macleanjr 12y ago
I have a KwikSet Kevo, and it's been a huge convenience for me when returning home. I'm typically carrying several bags/waterbottle/misc items, and just tapping my lock rather than digging for a specific key is way easier, especially with hands full.
post_break 12y ago
I had a bluetooth deadbolt. I was able to give my friend a virtual key when he came to visit as I didn't have a spare for the deadbolt. The key was encrypted based on a username and password and I could revoke it at will. It filled a need for the time he stayed at my place and worked great.
- r00fus 12y ago
  > I had a bluetooth deadbolt. I was able to give my friend a virtual key when he came to visit as I didn't have a spare for the deadbolt. Or you could have visited the locksmith (or your local hardware store with a key department) and gotten 1 or more spares in minutes.
  - post_break 12y ago
    I was at work, he was driving in. I mean it just wasn't worth the hassle an email accomplished the same thing. If it was my mom, sure then I would have had to do the locksmith route.
jpmattia 12y ago
> How hard is opening a classic lock with a key? In addition to the other use cases that folks have replied: You are young now, but you will find there are older people whose hands do not work quite so well. Keys, bottles, and a host of other items that you take for granted with well-working hands become serious obstacles to daily living. [I should add that arthritis can hit even young people.]
- stonogo 12y ago
  Hahah yeah it's way easier to navigate a smartphone than it is to operate a key
  - jpmattia 12y ago
    > it's way easier to navigate a smartphone than it is to operate a key If you don't understand the truth of that statement for some people, then consider yourself lucky.
    - stonogo 12y ago
      RA ended my love affair with touchscreens before it ever began.
paulgerhardt 12y ago
Think about what you know about computer access models (usernames, passwords, OAuth tokens, etc.) If you were to design a new access system today from scratch, would you set it up so that A) you give everyone the same 2 character password B) you don't give anyone a username and C) anyone can give anyone else admin credentials with no authentication? Probably not, but this is the way regular house keys work. Lockitron represents a step in fixing that. Keys worked fine in the 20th century when matter was difficult to work with. This won't be the case for the 21st century.
- nhayden 12y ago
  Unless you put huge bars over your windows and have a reinforced door frame/door/lock, it takes all of 30 seconds to break your way into a home anyway. Deadbolts are false security, even if electronic.
  - UrMomReadsHN 12y ago
    >Deadbolts are false security False security? In what way? False as in they don't do anything? Or false in that they give you a false sense of security? Deadbolts prevent the most casual of crime and crime of opportunity. Which I would argue is probably the most prevalent type of crime.
    - LLWM 12y ago
      And a system where A) you give everyone the same 2 character password B) you don't give anyone a username and C) anyone can give anyone else admin credentials with no authentication? works just fine there.
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
- x1798DE 12y ago
  In addition to the problems with your concept of the security model of locks that other commenters have addressed, I'd like to point out that while requiring unique per-person authentication tokens aids in per-user access revocation, it also leaks information, meaning that whoever can view the access logs can effectively track your comings and goings (or at least your comings) through that door. Keys which simply authenticate "I am in the group of people who are allowed to access this" are generally preferable to ones that say, "I am John Smith, check that name against the list of people allowed to access this." Also, keep in mind that Lockitron is obviously shooting for the consumer market, where concerns about sharing keys are basically non-existent. Commercial users who actually have to frequently deal with key revocations have been using RFID and other per-user access management technologies for ages.
lkbm 12y ago
I've been grousing about how much I really want something like this for cars specifically for key-sharing. My driveway is four cars deep and two wide, so my various housemates all have to make a copy of their key available so we can move any cars blocking us in. If we could just generate a sub-key, that'd be much more convenient. Similarly, how about the ability to easily give a temporary house key to your visiting friends/family without having to have n spare keys sitting around? (Right now we have a re-programmable keypad, but if we could generate temporary subkeys without either giving out the master code or programming in a subcode, that'd be ideal.)
blisterpeanuts 12y ago
There are many use cases for these technologies that are difficult or impossible to achieve with a traditional key lock. For example, you can remotely grant 2 hours of access to a tradesman to enter your property and fix something. You can grant access to realtors to enter your property that is for sale, and you can track how many times they were there and how much time they spent on each visit. You can grant the cleaning person access between 9am and 1pm on Wednesdays. You can get into your house with any BLE-enabled device. Even if you lose your phone, you could borrow the neighbor's phone, run the appropriate app, enter the correct PIN, and gain entry. Then give them back their phone and they have no more access to your home than they did before you used it. Of course, you can argue - a physical key or a keycard doesn't require batteries. But, a keycard can be erased or scrambled or lost. Then you need to quickly reprogram the lock so whoever finds it can't use it. Impossible with a traditional lock, and varying degrees of difficulty with a keycard system.
- ape4 12y ago
  I think a keycard like businesses use is the way to go for this. You can disable a card's access without having the card.
  - LLWM 12y ago
    Its certainly a more complete solution but probably costs too much for the average person to use on their own home. Even $99 for a lockitron is too expensive to interest me at all.
    - ape4 12y ago
      Maybe somebody should make a consumer cost keycard system. I would be much more inclined to use that.
TheAnimus 12y ago
I've had my phone stolen before, but never my door keys. Now I can experience a much bigger problem if I'm mugged again.
- x1798DE 12y ago
  Presumably you can revoke the phone's access to the door as soon as you get home, though, because the two need not be permanently bound to one another.
  - LLWM 12y ago
    Sure but the question you have to answer before that is how to get in your home without your phone.
    - x1798DE 12y ago
      I was to understand from the article that it falls back to being a keyed lock, so you'd just use your keys. It'd be pretty dumb to restrict your only method of ingress to something that you can only access when you have your (charged up) phone with you.
nostromo 12y ago
I went keyless a while ago. I highly recommend it. It's helpful for friends, dog-walkers, etc. Also, no keys to misplace! (I rarely drive.) However, I use a simple PIN-code lock, not a phone-based lock. I'm not sure the phone system is worth the extra overhead for me. I can't wait until I can ditch the wallet too... Edit: I've had the Schlage keypad locks for about 3 years now without any problems. I haven't even had to replace a battery yet.
- DanBC 12y ago
  May I ask what lock brand? I used to work in a factory that had a reasonable quality push button mechanical lock in combination with insurance grade cylinder lock on a sturdy door. That cylinder lock was sometimes left "on the latch" when people were working there. One night (they worked night shifts) a guy got access by brute-forcing the pin-combination lock. It took him (there was CCTV) about 7 minutes to get in.
  - wpietri 12y ago
    It's been a long time since I used one, but don't push-button mechanical locks have a pretty small space of possible combinations?
    - omgbear 12y ago
      Yea -- the common rectangle ones with 10 buttons don't care about ordering, so you have combinations not permutations, and a tiny search space.
      - mikeash 12y ago
        Just to put a number on "tiny": if there are 10 buttons and the code is 5 digits long, there are 252 possible combinations. If it takes you four seconds to try a combination then your expected time to brute force the code would be about 8 minutes.
        12y ago
raverbashing 12y ago
" It's like a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.. " That's a lot of startups up there. A lot Sometimes you see job openings and you read their business model and you think "really?!"
frogpelt 12y ago
Cars have been doing keyless entry for decades. They've even recently moved to proximity keys so that you don't even have to press a button. What do you not understand?
tw04 12y ago
It's funny you say that, because 5 minutes ago I literally locked my door from half-way across the country. The cleaners forgot to lock it when they left. I don't have this lock, I have the schlage z-wave deadbolt sync'd to a wink hub. Before this lock, my wife would leave the front door unlocked in the morning until the cleaners showed up hours and hours later. I'm not a fan of having my house unlocked, and I wasn't really interested in giving the cleaners a key that they could use anytime they wanted. What is my alternative other than having my house sit unlocked until my wife gets home in the evening?

smackfu 12y ago

It's virtualizing the key, which lets you do some more fancy stuff than a physical key. Namely revoking and adding access without requiring key duplication or changing the locks.

ics 12y ago

> You can also use email or SMS to give access to a particular lock, so your friends and family can always get in without needing a key. Have a babysitter or a cleaner who comes by regularly? You’ll soon be able to give permission to individuals for specific portions of the day. From the article. Particularly useful for: AirBnB hosts, people with roommates, friends/family visiting, etc.

macleanjr 12y ago

I have a KwikSet Kevo, and it's been a huge convenience for me when returning home. I'm typically carrying several bags/waterbottle/misc items, and just tapping my lock rather than digging for a specific key is way easier, especially with hands full.

post_break 12y ago

I had a bluetooth deadbolt. I was able to give my friend a virtual key when he came to visit as I didn't have a spare for the deadbolt. The key was encrypted based on a username and password and I could revoke it at will. It filled a need for the time he stayed at my place and worked great.

r00fus 12y ago
> I had a bluetooth deadbolt. I was able to give my friend a virtual key when he came to visit as I didn't have a spare for the deadbolt. Or you could have visited the locksmith (or your local hardware store with a key department) and gotten 1 or more spares in minutes.
- post_break 12y ago
  I was at work, he was driving in. I mean it just wasn't worth the hassle an email accomplished the same thing. If it was my mom, sure then I would have had to do the locksmith route.

jpmattia 12y ago

> How hard is opening a classic lock with a key? In addition to the other use cases that folks have replied: You are young now, but you will find there are older people whose hands do not work quite so well. Keys, bottles, and a host of other items that you take for granted with well-working hands become serious obstacles to daily living. [I should add that arthritis can hit even young people.]

stonogo 12y ago
Hahah yeah it's way easier to navigate a smartphone than it is to operate a key
- jpmattia 12y ago
  > it's way easier to navigate a smartphone than it is to operate a key If you don't understand the truth of that statement for some people, then consider yourself lucky.
  - stonogo 12y ago
    RA ended my love affair with touchscreens before it ever began.

paulgerhardt 12y ago

Think about what you know about computer access models (usernames, passwords, OAuth tokens, etc.) If you were to design a new access system today from scratch, would you set it up so that A) you give everyone the same 2 character password B) you don't give anyone a username and C) anyone can give anyone else admin credentials with no authentication? Probably not, but this is the way regular house keys work. Lockitron represents a step in fixing that. Keys worked fine in the 20th century when matter was difficult to work with. This won't be the case for the 21st century.

nhayden 12y ago
Unless you put huge bars over your windows and have a reinforced door frame/door/lock, it takes all of 30 seconds to break your way into a home anyway. Deadbolts are false security, even if electronic.
- UrMomReadsHN 12y ago
  >Deadbolts are false security False security? In what way? False as in they don't do anything? Or false in that they give you a false sense of security? Deadbolts prevent the most casual of crime and crime of opportunity. Which I would argue is probably the most prevalent type of crime.
  - LLWM 12y ago
    And a system where A) you give everyone the same 2 character password B) you don't give anyone a username and C) anyone can give anyone else admin credentials with no authentication? works just fine there.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
x1798DE 12y ago
In addition to the problems with your concept of the security model of locks that other commenters have addressed, I'd like to point out that while requiring unique per-person authentication tokens aids in per-user access revocation, it also leaks information, meaning that whoever can view the access logs can effectively track your comings and goings (or at least your comings) through that door. Keys which simply authenticate "I am in the group of people who are allowed to access this" are generally preferable to ones that say, "I am John Smith, check that name against the list of people allowed to access this." Also, keep in mind that Lockitron is obviously shooting for the consumer market, where concerns about sharing keys are basically non-existent. Commercial users who actually have to frequently deal with key revocations have been using RFID and other per-user access management technologies for ages.

lkbm 12y ago

I've been grousing about how much I really want something like this for cars specifically for key-sharing. My driveway is four cars deep and two wide, so my various housemates all have to make a copy of their key available so we can move any cars blocking us in. If we could just generate a sub-key, that'd be much more convenient. Similarly, how about the ability to easily give a temporary house key to your visiting friends/family without having to have n spare keys sitting around? (Right now we have a re-programmable keypad, but if we could generate temporary subkeys without either giving out the master code or programming in a subcode, that'd be ideal.)

blisterpeanuts 12y ago

There are many use cases for these technologies that are difficult or impossible to achieve with a traditional key lock. For example, you can remotely grant 2 hours of access to a tradesman to enter your property and fix something. You can grant access to realtors to enter your property that is for sale, and you can track how many times they were there and how much time they spent on each visit. You can grant the cleaning person access between 9am and 1pm on Wednesdays. You can get into your house with any BLE-enabled device. Even if you lose your phone, you could borrow the neighbor's phone, run the appropriate app, enter the correct PIN, and gain entry. Then give them back their phone and they have no more access to your home than they did before you used it. Of course, you can argue - a physical key or a keycard doesn't require batteries. But, a keycard can be erased or scrambled or lost. Then you need to quickly reprogram the lock so whoever finds it can't use it. Impossible with a traditional lock, and varying degrees of difficulty with a keycard system.

ape4 12y ago
I think a keycard like businesses use is the way to go for this. You can disable a card's access without having the card.
- LLWM 12y ago
  Its certainly a more complete solution but probably costs too much for the average person to use on their own home. Even $99 for a lockitron is too expensive to interest me at all.
  - ape4 12y ago
    Maybe somebody should make a consumer cost keycard system. I would be much more inclined to use that.

TheAnimus 12y ago

I've had my phone stolen before, but never my door keys. Now I can experience a much bigger problem if I'm mugged again.

x1798DE 12y ago
Presumably you can revoke the phone's access to the door as soon as you get home, though, because the two need not be permanently bound to one another.
- LLWM 12y ago
  Sure but the question you have to answer before that is how to get in your home without your phone.
  - x1798DE 12y ago
    I was to understand from the article that it falls back to being a keyed lock, so you'd just use your keys. It'd be pretty dumb to restrict your only method of ingress to something that you can only access when you have your (charged up) phone with you.

nostromo 12y ago

I went keyless a while ago. I highly recommend it. It's helpful for friends, dog-walkers, etc. Also, no keys to misplace! (I rarely drive.) However, I use a simple PIN-code lock, not a phone-based lock. I'm not sure the phone system is worth the extra overhead for me. I can't wait until I can ditch the wallet too... Edit: I've had the Schlage keypad locks for about 3 years now without any problems. I haven't even had to replace a battery yet.

DanBC 12y ago
May I ask what lock brand? I used to work in a factory that had a reasonable quality push button mechanical lock in combination with insurance grade cylinder lock on a sturdy door. That cylinder lock was sometimes left "on the latch" when people were working there. One night (they worked night shifts) a guy got access by brute-forcing the pin-combination lock. It took him (there was CCTV) about 7 minutes to get in.
- wpietri 12y ago
  It's been a long time since I used one, but don't push-button mechanical locks have a pretty small space of possible combinations?
  - omgbear 12y ago
    Yea -- the common rectangle ones with 10 buttons don't care about ordering, so you have combinations not permutations, and a tiny search space.
    - mikeash 12y ago
      Just to put a number on "tiny": if there are 10 buttons and the code is 5 digits long, there are 252 possible combinations. If it takes you four seconds to try a combination then your expected time to brute force the code would be about 8 minutes.
      - 12y ago

raverbashing 12y ago

" It's like a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.. " That's a lot of startups up there. A lot Sometimes you see job openings and you read their business model and you think "really?!"

frogpelt 12y ago

Cars have been doing keyless entry for decades. They've even recently moved to proximity keys so that you don't even have to press a button. What do you not understand?

tw04 12y ago

It's funny you say that, because 5 minutes ago I literally locked my door from half-way across the country. The cleaners forgot to lock it when they left. I don't have this lock, I have the schlage z-wave deadbolt sync'd to a wink hub. Before this lock, my wife would leave the front door unlocked in the morning until the cleaners showed up hours and hours later. I'm not a fan of having my house unlocked, and I wasn't really interested in giving the cleaners a key that they could use anytime they wanted. What is my alternative other than having my house sit unlocked until my wife gets home in the evening?