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Define 'democratic government'. This term is a euphemism nowadays in the West. E.g.: http://www.salon.com/2013/08/17/chomsky_the_u_s_behaves_nothing_like_a_demo

Define 'democratic government'. This term is a euphemism nowadays in the West. E.g.: http://www.salon.com/2013/08/17/chomsky_the_u_s_behaves_nothing_like_a_democracy/ http://www.salon.com/2013/08/17/chomsky_the_u_s_behaves_noth...

raverbashing 12y ago
I wonder if Chomsky would have that liberty of critique in any other country...
- Padding 12y ago
  What difference does freedom make if society is engineered accordingly so that anything but the party line will be lost in the noise? Other than for possible riots, bloodshed and long-term sustainability, is that in any way distinguisable from a "non-free" form of government? Besides, freedom is only necessary for democracy, not sufficient. So his points all remain valid.
- pXMzR2A 12y ago
  > I wonder if Chomsky would have that liberty of critique in any other country... Yes, he would have. And in many, he would not need it.
  - ptaipale 12y ago
    What does it mean that someone does not "need" a liberty?
- vidarh 12y ago
  He certainly would in quite a lot of countries. Chomsky is a lot less controversial in a lot of countries outside the US than he is in the US. I'm sure there are countries where he'd be unable to say what he wants, but there are also a lot of countries (e.g. in Europe) where his political views are reasonably close to mainstream, to the extent where he's no more controversial than the average left wing politician and his main problem would be that he'd be one of many voices saying similar things.
  - Amezarak 12y ago
    It seems strange to address raver's comment about liberty of critique by saying Chomsky is less controversial in Europe and his views are close to the mainstream. Th test of a country's liberty is better illustrated by the spectrum of allowed speech rather than whether or not an opinion corresponds with the mainstream. And in my opinion, the spectrum of allowed speech is narrower in the average European country than the US.
  - jimbokun 12y ago
    Reagan joke: "Two men, an American and a Russian were arguing. One said, in my country I can go to the white house walk to the president's office and pound the desk and say "Mr president! I don't like how you're running things in this country!" The Russian said "I can do that too!" "Really?" "Yes! I can go to the Kremlin, walk into the general secretary's office and pound the desk and say, Mr. secretary, I don't like how Reagan is running his country!"
- Flip-per 12y ago
  Are you serious? I wonder what Barrett Brown would say about this topic, if he wouldn't sit in prison right now: http://boingboing.net/2015/01/22/barrettbrown.html http://boingboing.net/2015/01/22/barrettbrown.html Are you aware that (h)activists from around the world do not travel to the USA because they fear the consequences, having their equipment seized or being imprisoned? Do you know why Laura Poitras is living in Berlin right now?
  - raverbashing 12y ago
    I am serious and I am aware of the issues you raised. Meanwhile Turkey has to remove pages from FB because they're "offensive", not to mention other issues that happens in the ME. I am certainly not saying the US has the better situation, and Europe looks good, unless you "offend" some groups of people... And if you think censorship by DMCA is bad in the US you should know the German GEMA. Please note that freedom from critique of a country usually is much stronger while being outside of that country.
    - Flip-per 12y ago
      "in any other country" reads a bit different than "turkey and some middle-east countries". This is rather about free speech than about copyright issues which GEMA and the DMCA deal with. Have a look at the Freedom of Press Index, where the USA are behind Botswana and El Salvador: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_Freedom_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_Freedom_Index
      - danielweber 12y ago
        Canada, and most of the European countries, have successfully prosecuted ordinary people for "hate speech" for saying things that upset people of certain classes.
      - raverbashing 12y ago
        "where the USA are behind Botswana and El Salvador" You mean, in position 46 of 180? Higher rated than Italy, Taiwan, South Korea, Chile and Japan? Not the best position, surely, almost on the Top 4th Nice attempt of data manipulation, btw, also implying that Botswana and El Salvador should not have good freedom of press "of course"
- mcv 12y ago
  I wonder how much longer he'll have that liberty in the US.
- lotsofmangos 12y ago
  Have a look at the Reporters Without Borders press freedom index. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_Freedom_Index http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_Freedom_Index There are 45 countries that journalists rank as having better press freedom than the USA. edit - For comparison, I just looked at the "Freedom of the Press" report by US NGO Freedom House. It has 21 countries with a better rating than the USA.

raverbashing 12y ago

I wonder if Chomsky would have that liberty of critique in any other country...

Padding 12y ago
What difference does freedom make if society is engineered accordingly so that anything but the party line will be lost in the noise? Other than for possible riots, bloodshed and long-term sustainability, is that in any way distinguisable from a "non-free" form of government? Besides, freedom is only necessary for democracy, not sufficient. So his points all remain valid.
pXMzR2A 12y ago
> I wonder if Chomsky would have that liberty of critique in any other country... Yes, he would have. And in many, he would not need it.
- ptaipale 12y ago
  What does it mean that someone does not "need" a liberty?
vidarh 12y ago
He certainly would in quite a lot of countries. Chomsky is a lot less controversial in a lot of countries outside the US than he is in the US. I'm sure there are countries where he'd be unable to say what he wants, but there are also a lot of countries (e.g. in Europe) where his political views are reasonably close to mainstream, to the extent where he's no more controversial than the average left wing politician and his main problem would be that he'd be one of many voices saying similar things.
- Amezarak 12y ago
  It seems strange to address raver's comment about liberty of critique by saying Chomsky is less controversial in Europe and his views are close to the mainstream. Th test of a country's liberty is better illustrated by the spectrum of allowed speech rather than whether or not an opinion corresponds with the mainstream. And in my opinion, the spectrum of allowed speech is narrower in the average European country than the US.
- jimbokun 12y ago
  Reagan joke: "Two men, an American and a Russian were arguing. One said, in my country I can go to the white house walk to the president's office and pound the desk and say "Mr president! I don't like how you're running things in this country!" The Russian said "I can do that too!" "Really?" "Yes! I can go to the Kremlin, walk into the general secretary's office and pound the desk and say, Mr. secretary, I don't like how Reagan is running his country!"
Flip-per 12y ago
Are you serious? I wonder what Barrett Brown would say about this topic, if he wouldn't sit in prison right now: http://boingboing.net/2015/01/22/barrettbrown.html http://boingboing.net/2015/01/22/barrettbrown.html Are you aware that (h)activists from around the world do not travel to the USA because they fear the consequences, having their equipment seized or being imprisoned? Do you know why Laura Poitras is living in Berlin right now?
- raverbashing 12y ago
  I am serious and I am aware of the issues you raised. Meanwhile Turkey has to remove pages from FB because they're "offensive", not to mention other issues that happens in the ME. I am certainly not saying the US has the better situation, and Europe looks good, unless you "offend" some groups of people... And if you think censorship by DMCA is bad in the US you should know the German GEMA. Please note that freedom from critique of a country usually is much stronger while being outside of that country.
  - Flip-per 12y ago
    "in any other country" reads a bit different than "turkey and some middle-east countries". This is rather about free speech than about copyright issues which GEMA and the DMCA deal with. Have a look at the Freedom of Press Index, where the USA are behind Botswana and El Salvador: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_Freedom_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_Freedom_Index
    - danielweber 12y ago
      Canada, and most of the European countries, have successfully prosecuted ordinary people for "hate speech" for saying things that upset people of certain classes.
    - raverbashing 12y ago
      "where the USA are behind Botswana and El Salvador" You mean, in position 46 of 180? Higher rated than Italy, Taiwan, South Korea, Chile and Japan? Not the best position, surely, almost on the Top 4th Nice attempt of data manipulation, btw, also implying that Botswana and El Salvador should not have good freedom of press "of course"
mcv 12y ago
I wonder how much longer he'll have that liberty in the US.
lotsofmangos 12y ago
Have a look at the Reporters Without Borders press freedom index. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_Freedom_Index http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_Freedom_Index There are 45 countries that journalists rank as having better press freedom than the USA. edit - For comparison, I just looked at the "Freedom of the Press" report by US NGO Freedom House. It has 21 countries with a better rating than the USA.